[spoiler] Ghostcrawler confirms ridiculous Alliance outcome in 5.4

[THE Bigzoman]

If you don't even have the scrots to answer a hypothetical question as comparison to your own provocation, there's really nothing serious you can give to this debate.

What the deuce are you talking about. I answered here

No. And accountability would be requested via story. Even though I don't think the forsaken deserve any sympathy.

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Garrosh didn't exile the Trolls from Orgrimmar. They left on their own because they didn't like what he was doing.


Killing Cairne is irrelevant. He did it lawfully while defending his innocence.

Just because something is lawful doesn't make it right.

[Florena]

What the deuce are you talking about. I answered here



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Just because something is lawful doesn't make it right.

Cairne stepped into that arena knowing it was a duel to the death, willing to kill Garrosh for crimes he didn't have proof of, and his accusations were actually false. All Garrosh did was defend his honor.

[THE Bigzoman]

Cairne stepped into that arena knowing it was a duel to the death, willing to kill Garrosh for crimes he didn't have proof of, and his accusations were actually false. All Garrosh did was defend his honor.

As the warcheif of the entire horde, the burden lies upon him to have a cooler head in that situation.

[Pum]

Cairne stepped into that arena knowing it was a duel to the death, willing to kill Garrosh for crimes he didn't have proof of, and his accusations were actually false. All Garrosh did was defend his honor.

It's great this thread has derailed from what it was actually intended for. Cairne fucked up, whatever.

The point at hand is Alliance getting shit on at every corner, for 2 expansions now.

[Florena]

As the warcheif of the entire horde, the burden lies upon him to have a cooler head in that situation.

Cairne challenged him to mok'gora, and he made it a duel to the death NOT because he wanted to kill Cairne, but because he had no idea what Cairne was going on about and was trying to bluff him into backing down. The warchief doesn't have the privilege to decline a mok'gora challenge i'm pretty sure, otherwise its existence would be silly.

[Aquamonkey]

As the warcheif of the entire horde, the burden lies upon him to have a cooler head in that situation.

He did have a cooler head. Cairne is the one who challenged Garrosh to the duel. Garrosh proposed it be to the death, not because he wanted to kill Cairne, but because he thought Cairne would back down. Once Cairne accepted the terms of the duel, Garrosh's hands were tied.

Cairne’s eyes narrowed. “To the death, then?”
Garrosh grinned. “To the death. Perhaps now you will apologize.”
Cairne stared for a moment longer, then threw back his head and laughed. That caught Garrosh by surprise.

[Florena]

It's great this thread has derailed from what it was actually intended for. Cairne fucked up, whatever.

The point at hand is Alliance getting shit on at every corner, for 2 expansions now.

This thread is silly and people shouldn't jump the gun until we see the actual content.

[Pum]

Good luck holding it when the exiled military might of the Horde makes the smart move of heading to the Undercity. Their best play would be to move as much strength as possible to Forsaken territory and then begin the push south. I don't believe the Alliance would have the strength to counter a full Forsaken, Orc, Troll, Goblin, and BE invasion in the Eastern Kingdoms while at the same time holding Kalimdor (and likely putting up with Tauren raids or laying siege to their territory).

After what the Alliance have done for the Horde in SoO there is not a chance in hell the Troll's and Tauren's would join forces for a march on the south from Lordaeron, that probably even includes the Blood Elves.

[Dreknar20]

As the warcheif of the entire horde, the burden lies upon him to have a cooler head in that situation.

he had a much cooler head compared to Cairne
He told him he didnt do it, dismissed his accusations and told him to sod off

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The warchief doesn't have the privilege to decline a mok'gora challenge i'm pretty sure, otherwise its existence would be silly.

A Warchief would probably have much more pressure to accept such a challenege

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After what the Alliance have done for the Horde in SoO there is not a chance in hell the Troll's and Tauren's would join forces for a march on the south from Lordaeron, that probably even includes the Blood Elves.

if the Alliance started occupying and opressing Horde lands/settlements it will give them some reasons

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Practiced unethical methods of war

Which didnt happen till Theramore

But besides that, war is about death and destruction, is there really such a thing as an "ethical" way of doing that
"There is no honorable way to kill, no gentle way to destroy"

[Aquamonkey]

The warchief doesn't have the privilege to decline a mok'gora challenge i'm pretty sure, otherwise its existence would be silly.

A Warchief would probably have much more pressure to accept such a challenege

Pretty sure refusing is an automatic loss.

[Enosh]

see, this is where the alliance really love to miss out details to suit there arguments.

The attack on theramore was, at the disgust of Baine and Vol'jin, ordered by Garrosh, as as horde they were oath bound to follow his orders. But, they fought honorably, on the ground hand to hand against the alliance. There was even valid reason, given theramore presence in the barrens for the horde to have honorable combat against theramore and stop more bloodshed being spread across there own lands from the alliance.

But, it was garrosh who used this as a decoy, using the rest of the horde as his decoy to have the mana bomb brought to theramore, which nobody but his kor'kohn, malkorok and the goblins knew about.

The horde who fought hand to hand in theramore were doing so honorably. This is why, if you read the book, you'd know how much of a shock this was to baine and vol'jin for what garrosh did.

Seriously have you even read the book. Are you basing your argument of that shitty little scenario?

you do understand that from the alliance point of view "go and murder them all with swords" and "go and drop a nuke on them" there isn't much practical difference right?

again, the trolls and tauren went into the battle with the knowledge that the goal of the battle is the destruction of theramore and the murder of all the alliance in it
and that is exactly what happened and what they are just as responsible for as garrosh

[Dreknar20]

again, the trolls and tauren went into the battle with the knowledge that the goal of the battle is the destruction of theramore and the murder of all the alliance in it
and that is exactly what happened and what they are just as responsible for as garrosh

And all the Alliance went into battle knowing they are expected to murder all the Horde they encounter so it kinda balances out

[Aquamonkey]

again, the trolls and tauren went into the battle with the knowledge that the goal of the battle is the destruction of theramore and the murder of all the alliance in it
and that is exactly what happened and what they are just as responsible for as garrosh

Except Baine warned Jaina so she could evacuate...

[Dreknar20]

Except Baine warned Jaina so she could evacuate...

I got the impression he did so so the Alliance would better prepare their defenses, which is silly in a way since thats means he is increasing the danger for himself and the Horde.

But...thats what happens when you dont view the enemy as nothing but an enemy

[Florena]

I forget Baine's reasoning, but it was done to repay Jaina for what she'd done in helping him with Thudner Bluff. Think she provided money for mercs or something, I forget. Anyway, he didn't realize that Garrosh was going to wait as long as he did and allow the Alliance to actually put up a defense that fought the siege back.

[Aquamonkey]

I got the impression he did so so the Alliance would better prepare their defenses, which is silly in a way since thats means he is increasing the danger for himself and the Horde.

But...thats what happens when you dont view the enemy as nothing but an enemy

The warning was so Jaina wouldn't be caught unawares. Considering Baine didn't know Garrosh intended to wait a week, “He will shortly be ordering the Horde to march on Theramore. And mark me well, their numbers are strong. As you are now, you will fall.” Baine probably meant for them to evacuate since he didn't think they would have time to call in reinforcements.

[Dreknar20]

Baine probably meant for them to evacuate since he didn't think they would have time to call in reinforcements.

but I also remember Baine saying the warning was meant "to prevent an Alliance massacre not cause a Horde one" - along those lines

[Aquamonkey]

but I also remember Baine saying the warning was meant "to prevent an Alliance massacre not cause a Horde one" - along those lines

That IDK. I only looked at the part where Perith is giving Jaina the message.

EDIT: I found it: "Even so, the warning had been given to prevent a massacre of the Alliance, not so that the Alliance would have a chance to massacre the Horde." More indication that he wanted Jaina to evacuate, not for them to fortify and cause more Horde deaths.

[MikeBogina]

She did that because the Sunreavers betrayed her and used Dalaran's Neutrality to steal the divine bell. It's NOT because theramore. Get your facts checked.

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Excuse me, monopoly on lore and more zones?
In Vanilla there was hardly ever a lore development.
In TBC We were mostly dealing with blood elf lore development ending in the purifiying of the Sunwell
In Wrath both factions got lore development (if you hordes think you didn't: The rise of garrosh, the creation of the plague, etc etc)
And since Cata its all Hordey-thrallfest.

Yes, lore... that stuff that books are filled with. The Alliance dominated books and the comics... and the manga. in game, there was lore but not as out going until wotlk, but to say the rise of garrosh and creation of the the plague was lore is ridiculous. Garrosh sat in his base and said a few lines to Saurfang and had a couple mean things to say to Varian. There was no completion of the plague for us, it was just something that happened in a cutscene, there was no driving lore for it... smh.

Bolvar, Darian, Tirion and Arthas were leading the expansion in lore, they are all alliance.

[Deleted]

Yes, lore... that stuff that books are filled with. The Alliance dominated books and the comics... and the manga. in game, there was lore but not as out going until wotlk, but to say the rise of garrosh and creation of the the plague was lore is ridiculous. Garrosh sat in his base and said a few lines to Saurfang and had a couple mean things to say to Varian. There was no completion of the plague for us, it was just something that happened in a cutscene, there was no driving lore for it... smh.

Bolvar, Darian, Tirion and Arthas were leading the expansion in lore, they are all alliance.

Leading the expansion in lore. That's an overstatement...Varian had as much screentime as Garrosh, and he is the only guy that is really alliance from theese you counted.