Assassination needs to be nerfed in pvp before 5.4.

[Rorke]

This thread was created to acknowledge from what I believe is the undeniable and ugly truth about Assassination Rogues in pvp based on my experiences on the ptr. I've been playing the PTR for quite some time on my Rogue and I believe Assassination cannot be allowed to go live in its current state. This is from my experiences only, yours may differ. And before anyone brings up "Potions, elixirs, food buffs ect, I didn't use any of that. The only buffs I had were from other players and Deadly/Mind Numbing poison. That you will just have to take my word on. If anyone has played Assassination on the ptr in pvp, your free to share your experiences in this thread.

First off, I want to bring up some of the respectable points made by Verain where he stated in two different threads.

I don't buy the numbers argument. They are not going to do some large numbers change on the PTR. I believe his assessment that mutilate will have good burst. But I don't see that as being bad in any way yet- the case hasn't been made that this will be in any way out of line compared to DKs (full CC immunity for like 20 seconds, free to run a pve rotation), hunters (still shocking damage), mages (still solid deep freezes- only nerfed because of scaling), or even locks.

I dunno, I have to trinket a lot of dumb shit too. If some warrior comes up and swiftys me, I have to trink the shockwave or I will die in it. This sounds similar, and I'm not convinced this is an issue.

Hell, I'm excited about it. God forbid an assassination rogue actually be able to assassinate someone who "will use their defensive cooldowns way too late" or who "will sit in this combo and expect to survive it".

Sounds great!

Assassination on the ptr can kill without burst. My Rogue easily pulls more single target damage through Deadly Poison and Venomous Wounds than my Unholy DK's Frost Fever/blood plague. It is a problem because no other class has the ability to lock someone out of the game for 10 straight seconds and be able to reset a fight at will like rogues can. You make the argument that its okay for Assassination to have Arms Warrior burst levels because "Warriors can shockwave stun you and swifty you why can't Assassination?"

It's because Warriors don't have the ability to vanish and silence or completely lock someone out for 9 straight seconds. They did in 5.0 when they had Gag order but now all they have is shockwave (which they have to spec into) and a charge stun. So at most you're stunned for 5.5 seconds. Arms doesn't even compare to the amount of sustained damage that Assassination can pull off either. Also its not as if the Assassination Rogue needs 100% uptime either. Most of the damage comes from auto applied damage.

If someone trinkets my opener, I don't give a shit. Why? Because I have abilities like Vanishx2 and Blind and re open. Or I can just spam burst of speed and get completely away. Nobody can catch a Rogue with 5.4 Burst of Speed, not even a Feral. It's unreal how overpowered Burst of Speed is... its basically a spammable sprint that breaks slows that doesn't have a gcd at a cost of 15 energy which is nothing. At least feral shape-shifting requires a GCD. Also, If you're specced into burst of speed, Sprint is basically useless unless you want to walk on water. I have no idea how nobody else is seeing how broken this is.

Anyway, I know something is very very wrong when I'm a terrible Rogue and I'm able to kill above average players within seconds. The people on the ptr are not your average bads, most are at least 1700 and above. The funny thing is that I'm not even pooling energy or doing any sort of skilled strategy. I'm literally just smashing the same three buttons, mostly Mutilate. It's almost as if I'm playing my Rogue like I would on a Warrior or Frost DK except on those brainless classes I lack the survivability and control a Rogue has.

Sometimes I switch to Sub and feel awful and terrible all at the same time. The Rupture damage doesn't even compare to Assassination's Venomous Wounds and Shadow Dance is much harder to use than Vendetta and does less damage output. The utility aspect of Shadow Dance is all great until you find out that all of that utility is stupid when you can just mindlessly tunnel damage with Vendetta.

Vendetta lasts 20 freakin seconds doesn't require any sort of positioning or planning. You just hit mutilate and use envenom/Rupture at 4/5 combo points. Oh yeah speaking of Envenom that ability is completely superior to Subs Eviscerate. I love getting 100k Envenoms on a supposed "Sustained damage pvp spec". That damage doesn't require any form of armor penetration either. The only way to get Eviscerates to hit that high is through Find Weakness.

Speaking of damage, Sub's sustained damage is laughable compared to Assassination's. Hemorrhage is fucking horrible even with the buffs is has to be spammed where as mutilate you just hit once and does easily twice the damage or possibly more. Backstab requires positioning and even that shit damage isn't even worth the effort. What does dispatch require? Nothing just a random Blindslide proc. You probably get more blindside procs then backstab opportunities in pvp situations. The sick joke comes when you find out that Dispatch does more damage and is spammable in execute phase. Then again, if someone is that low they're probably going to die in 2 seconds anyway so you're better off just mashing mutilate or finish them with an envenom.

Rogues in pvp just cannot be allowed to do tremendous amounts of sustained damage and burst capability because of their control and ability to reset fights at will. That is why Assassination cannot be a "balanced pvp spec" because it defies that very statement. It needs to be nerfed in pvp without effecting pve. Whether some of you like it or not, Sub is the only spec that reflect that statement. The spec is literally designed with pvp in mind, not Assassination. The only reason Assassination is this far is because I believe Blizzard has overlooked it in pvp situations.

I would also like to add that I now think the ptr Killing Spree is going live. Why is it taking Blizzard this long to revert the change that they supposedly don't want in the game anymore? Not as if it matters, only idiots will play Combat over Assassination assuming the current state in the ptr goes live.

Thanks for reading.

[Deleted]

Are you talking arena or duels here? Since you're referring to double vanishes and resetting fights.

[Deleted]

sub =control +burst
mut = high sustained damage which requires uptime -hf with that

btw burst of speed gets countered by roots /cc which is rampant in arena.

[Deleted]

Lots of talk and nothing to back it up. "Hi i feel this is too stronk, can has nerf?" (inb4 "go to ptr and see for yourself") Assa can already pve somebody down if their dumb enough to take it. What is making it ridicilous in 5.4? Mastery scaling?

The people on the ptr are not your average bads, most are at least 1700 and above.

being above 1700 makes you good in this game?

Burst of speed is also easily countered by roots & every form of cc in the game ( apart from the passive slows which are actually minority )

[Deleted]

Can't help but comment of this wholly baseless rogue complaint post.
3/4s of this thread is dedicated to explaining how rogues are OP because they have... Rogue abilities, nearly all of which they have always had..
Yes, I've played on ptr - Assassination damage is out of control on ptr? No it isn't, its inline with the increases I've seen on other chars I've copied over there, those being a 10-15% damage increase, both on the dummies and in pvp.

I've not yet seen the new stat weights to mastery, but I'm not aware of any formula changes, nether have I seen any rogues running around gemming pure mastery, pvp geared of otherwise. So how exactly is a standardised mastery increase making us out of control?

Lets look at some statistics - In pvp, Rogues are currently the lest represented class overall, and also the least played class in 2v2 and 5v5, (they are a pinch above monks in 3v3). Assassination, while gaining ground after the Cloak and Dagger nerf last patch, is still behind Subtlety in terms of popularity.
So, to summarise, you feel Rogues, at their record low of pvp representation, are drastically in need of a nerf to prevent them transforming into gods due to the incremental stat budget gains and minor buff to burst of speed in the coming patch?

[Grayjoy]

I'm a terrible Rogue

Not to be rude, but I feel like acknowledging this implies your authority isn't very good on whether a burgeoning rogue PvP spec should die a horrible death.

[Kezuma]

nothing to back up , oh look muti is to strong please dont let it go live ... to much text for nothing and rogues are still bottom in the pvp

[bloodforsilence]

This thread was created to acknowledge from what I believe is the undeniable and ugly truth about Assassination Rogues in pvp based on my experiences on the ptr. I've been playing the PTR for quite some time on my Rogue and I believe Assassination cannot be allowed to go live in its current state. This is from my experiences only, yours may differ. And before anyone brings up "Potions, elixirs, food buffs ect, I didn't use any of that. The only buffs I had were from other players and Deadly/Mind Numbing poison. That you will just have to take my word on. If anyone has played Assassination on the ptr in pvp, your free to share your experiences in this thread.

First off, I want to bring up some of the respectable points made by Verain where he stated in two different threads.





Assassination on the ptr can kill without burst. My Rogue easily pulls more single target damage through Deadly Poison and Venomous Wounds than my Unholy DK's Frost Fever/blood plague. It is a problem because no other class has the ability to lock someone out of the game for 10 straight seconds and be able to reset a fight at will like rogues can. You make the argument that its okay for Assassination to have Arms Warrior burst levels because "Warriors can shockwave stun you and swifty you why can't Assassination?"

It's because Warriors don't have the ability to vanish and silence or completely lock someone out for 9 straight seconds. They did in 5.0 when they had Gag order but now all they have is shockwave (which they have to spec into) and a charge stun. So at most you're stunned for 5.5 seconds. Arms doesn't even compare to the amount of sustained damage that Assassination can pull off either. Also its not as if the Assassination Rogue needs 100% uptime either. Most of the damage comes from auto applied damage.

If someone trinkets my opener, I don't give a shit. Why? Because I have abilities like Vanishx2 and Blind and re open. Or I can just spam burst of speed and get completely away. Nobody can catch a Rogue with 5.4 Burst of Speed, not even a Feral. It's unreal how overpowered Burst of Speed is... its basically a spammable sprint that breaks slows that doesn't have a gcd at a cost of 15 energy which is nothing. At least feral shape-shifting requires a GCD. Also, If you're specced into burst of speed, Sprint is basically useless unless you want to walk on water. I have no idea how nobody else is seeing how broken this is.

Anyway, I know something is very very wrong when I'm a terrible Rogue and I'm able to kill above average players within seconds. The people on the ptr are not your average bads, most are at least 1700 and above. The funny thing is that I'm not even pooling energy or doing any sort of skilled strategy. I'm literally just smashing the same three buttons, mostly Mutilate. It's almost as if I'm playing my Rogue like I would on a Warrior or Frost DK except on those brainless classes I lack the survivability and control a Rogue has.

Sometimes I switch to Sub and feel awful and terrible all at the same time. The Rupture damage doesn't even compare to Assassination's Venomous Wounds and Shadow Dance is much harder to use than Vendetta and does less damage output. The utility aspect of Shadow Dance is all great until you find out that all of that utility is stupid when you can just mindlessly tunnel damage with Vendetta.

Vendetta lasts 20 freakin seconds doesn't require any sort of positioning or planning. You just hit mutilate and use envenom/Rupture at 4/5 combo points. Oh yeah speaking of Envenom that ability is completely superior to Subs Eviscerate. I love getting 100k Envenoms on a supposed "Sustained damage pvp spec". That damage doesn't require any form of armor penetration either. The only way to get Eviscerates to hit that high is through Find Weakness.

Speaking of damage, Sub's sustained damage is laughable compared to Assassination's. Hemorrhage is fucking horrible even with the buffs is has to be spammed where as mutilate you just hit once and does easily twice the damage or possibly more. Backstab requires positioning and even that shit damage isn't even worth the effort. What does dispatch require? Nothing just a random Blindslide proc. You probably get more blindside procs then backstab opportunities in pvp situations. The sick joke comes when you find out that Dispatch does more damage and is spammable in execute phase. Then again, if someone is that low they're probably going to die in 2 seconds anyway so you're better off just mashing mutilate or finish them with an envenom.

Rogues in pvp just cannot be allowed to do tremendous amounts of sustained damage and burst capability because of their control and ability to reset fights at will. That is why Assassination cannot be a "balanced pvp spec" because it defies that very statement. It needs to be nerfed in pvp without effecting pve. Whether some of you like it or not, Sub is the only spec that reflect that statement. The spec is literally designed with pvp in mind, not Assassination. The only reason Assassination is this far is because I believe Blizzard has overlooked it in pvp situations.

I would also like to add that I now think the ptr Killing Spree is going live. Why is it taking Blizzard this long to revert the change that they supposedly don't want in the game anymore? Not as if it matters, only idiots will play Combat over Assassination assuming the current state in the ptr goes live.

Thanks for reading.

So basically we are scaling well with the gear levels that are achievable at the end of this xpac.... Just like almost every other xpac.

Who would have thought rogues scale well with higher gear ilvls. Amirite

[ro9ue]

Thanks for letting me know I'll be playing my Assassination Rogue this season. Oh yeah but that season 14 gear... nvm.

[Damnit]

I love how the OP took the time to write a lengthy post, explaining his ideas with some form of data. Granted he didn't use much and didn't explain the specific scenarios that the high sustained burst w/e took place, but it seems he put forth some effort into this post. The first five replies all seem to be "stop complaining, dmg isn't high, you're dumb/bad".

Why can't civilized discussions be held now-a-days?

[Iyarashii]

I love how the OP took the time to write a lengthy post, explaining his ideas with some form of data. Granted he didn't use much and didn't explain the specific scenarios that the high sustained burst w/e took place, but it seems he put forth some effort into this post. The first five replies all seem to be "stop complaining, dmg isn't high, you're dumb/bad".

Why can't civilized discussions be held now-a-days?

There was absolutely no data. He never showed his mastery, the trinkets he was using, his talents or gear. For all we know he could have been using the stupidly overpowered int trinket like most people and just roll everyone. I am on the PTR right now and the damage is no where CLOSE to where his is. The reason why we are ALL saying those things is cause they are true. Where has anyone agreed with him? He even discredits himself saying he is bad at playing a rogue, so why should we even listen if he doesn't know himself what he is talking about?

[Kael]

Bring it back to real numbers and not insults and abstract theories.

Get some combat logs, some real #s, from, say, arenas since that's what people are generally interested in, from the PTR, both as assassination and sub, and let people take them apart and make an informed decision. While the OP is well-written and allows for discussion, we've got nothing to work with besides the "feel" of the damage and phrase "100k envenom" compared with the idea you get that as a FW Evis.

If you're going to argue against it, you should get some more information for us for that side instead...

[Terahertz]

I can't wait till blizzard will realize how incredibly broken and retarded burst of speed is. Will most likely last till next expansion

[Fus Ro Yay]

am i the only person in the world who plays my rogue as combat in pvp anymore?

*crawls back into cave*

just feels like everything else is so clunky, meh, idk.

[Iyarashii]

I can't wait till blizzard will realize how incredibly broken and retarded burst of speed is. Will most likely last till next expansion

And yet ferals still can shift out of roots with no cooldown or energy cost.

am i the only person in the world who plays my rogue as combat in pvp anymore?

*crawls back into cave*

just feels like everything else is so clunky, meh, idk.

You and woundman still play it, it's clunky for a reason, it's the way the spec was designed for pvp. There was never any thought into making combat a pvp spec which is why it performs so poorly and is centered around a gimmicky ability.

[Eazy]

Bring it back to real numbers and not insults and abstract theories.

Get some combat logs, some real #s, from, say, arenas since that's what people are generally interested in, from the PTR, both as assassination and sub, and let people take them apart and make an informed decision. While the OP is well-written and allows for discussion, we've got nothing to work with besides the "feel" of the damage and phrase "100k envenom" compared with the idea you get that as a FW Evis.

If you're going to argue against it, you should get some more information for us for that side instead...

I completely agree with you, I really hate that when someone is saying "Rogues are OP, because of (something - something), and Blizzard should really change it" without any proofs.

[Verain]

I would also like to add that I now think the ptr Killing Spree is going live.

It... sort of is.

Recently, Holinka tweeted:
https://twitter.com/holinka/status/358232973855821827


"PvE set bonuses should already be disabled in rated PvP on the PTR"


All the spree videos you have seen involve the 4pc PvE, which is the only buff* to the move versus on live. This buff will be disabled in RBGs, arenas, and MAYBE also reg BGs.

So it won't be determining rated matches, but it will still be way the fuck too strong in solo, world, and maybe battlegrounds.






I'll check out the rest of your claims later. I would like some numbers on S versus A if you have them though.

- - - Updated - - -

*the other buff is that spree sits on one target. But this really feels more like a bugfix than a buff, as the move is no longer accidentally countered because someone brought a dog or demon with them.

[Koji2k11]

there we go again its almost end of expansion and everyone starts whining about how OP rogues are which they are not.... does this endless conversation never end ?

infracted: spam

[Rorke]

I feel like responding to all of these posts, but I don't want to waste another hour of my life. If I was a better writer I would be able to articulate my points better and make it short and sweet. The hardest thing to do is to get a point across in the shortest written length possible. I need like a ghost writer or some shit so I can tell them my ideas and he can just write it.

infracted: trolling

[ymirsson]

But you have no point, yet.

You say "dmg is too high" and everyone asks "Why? And where?" and then there is silence.