New Frost Mastery: Icicles!

[Tickspoon]

Quick calc:
Frostbolt is: (1728 + 166.1%SP + Mastery) * 0.75 (regarding the casttime 2.0 vs an instant 1.5) = 1296 + 124.575%SP * Mastery
IceLance is: (336 + 32.3%SP)*4*0.25 = 1680 + 161.5%SP

Ice lance scaling would be 37.2%.
So with 25% crit: 166.1 * (1 + .25) * (1 + .0175m) / 2 > 37.2 * (1 + 1) * 4 * 1.25 / 1.5

m > 79 for FB DPS to exceed IL.

[Sombrelune]

Pete, even if I have the same feelings about my beloved TDF Frost mage ( Remembered soloing alizrazor meteor), I think dev will remplace Frosburn for icicles for sure.

They don't have the time ( and surely the will), to think of another mastery/frosburn change before 5.4 ( probably 27/08 or a weak after). Lore said that dev are quite ready for the number phase of ptr.
So I will do all in my power to a " less worse" icicle.

Some may say that in 6.0 Frost will have some love. I 'm not that optimistic. It's been nearly 4 years that Blizzard said " wait for the next expansion/patch". I lost my patience.

[Polarthief]

Shattered Ice Lance scales with INT, Sp

Icelance is regurly our second or third source of damage. But it scales with nearly nothing.

The problem is if it scales with too much stuff, it becomes too good in PvP (and with the 48% buff increase compensation after losing both Frostbolt stacks and Frostburn, they might need to do the following), which is why I propose they should do something so simple that they'll probably overlook:

1. Nerf the base damage a bit more (compensate PvP damage elsewhere)
2. Buff Fingers of Frost's bonus damage multiplier
3. Add Ice Lance to the Mastery (e.g., in addition to making the Icicles launch, it also adds an Icicle)

Boom. Now it scales with Mastery, just like FFB

don't you need to take crit chance in your calculations? around 25% for Frosbolt and 100% for IL?

And to Tiga, my concern is not that IL will become useless, is that it doesn't scale with our last secondary stat left. It means that like alwalys frost won't scale enough, comparing to Fire or Arcane.

Don't forget tha in the current state, the worst stat for fire, contribute more to the dps than our best stat in Frost.

Without the last buffing of Mage Bombs, and the RPPM system favoring haste spec, Frost Pve mage would have be dead since a long time.

TBH I'm surprised Frost lasted this long in the expansion so far without needing some significant changes.

Oh well, like GC says: "6.0 will fix it"... right?

[Deleted]

I did some quick test.
It's better than the first implementation :

• Icy Veins is absolutely mandatory as it every FB/FFB generate 3 times more Icicles.
• Alter Time/Icicle interaction feel bugged.
• IL need to generate Icicle because of the spam period and to include it into mastery because it increase by no secondary stat.
• make FFB release the Icicle or create a new spell on low CD (~10s)
• and Splitting Ice glyph will be mandatory too in PVE.

And more globally

• BF-FFB's damage is a joke. it's only useful for procing T16's bonuses.
• FB hit too much

Some spell power coefficient crit & non-crit

• Frostbolt : 166.1% / 332.2%
• Frostfirebolt : 150% / 300%
• BF-FFB : 150% / 300%
• FoF-IL : 186% / 372% (37.2%*1.25*4*2)
• Waterbolt : 50% / 100%

edit:
and I keep saying they could reduce bomb damage and remove BF proc from them.

[Sombrelune]

After multiple testing I don't feel that icicles is not passive. In theory it is not a simple passive mastery, but in practice it is.
I don't have any real control over it. I'm not going to waste FOF charges for preserving my fake burst for the right time.
So In pve at least, I played exactly like before ( without the Frosbolt debuff ramping of course).
Although, The 2P T16 change a little bit my priorities. I try to maximise my 2P buff with 1 frostbolt + 1 instant (icelance or BF FFB) when I Can ( without wasting BF procs)

[Deleted]

I did some quick test.
It's better than the first implementation :

• Icy Veins is absolutely mandatory as it every FB/FFB generate 3 times more Icicles.
• Alter Time/Icicle interaction feel bugged.
• IL need to generate Icicle because of the spam period and to include it into mastery because it increase by no secondary stat.
• make FFB release the Icicle or create a new spell on low CD (~10s)
• and Splitting Ice glyph will be mandatory too in PVE.

And more globally

• BF-FFB's damage is a joke. it's only useful for procing T16's bonuses.
• FB hit too much

Some spell power coefficient crit & non-crit

• Frostbolt : 166.1% / 332.2%
• Frostfirebolt : 150% / 300%
• BF-FFB : 150% / 300%
• FoF-IL : 186% / 372% (37.2%*1.25*4*2)
• Waterbolt : 50% / 100%

edit:
and I keep saying they could reduce bomb damage and remove BF proc from them.

100% agree and I would add a reworked IV and IV glyph. Spamming mostly IL and FFB during IV is a nerf to our 3 minute (dunno why IV is 3 minute and every other cd like Combustion and arcane power is 1,5) cooldown. Oh and Icicles hits stack the 25k Int wrath trinket.

[Deleted]

100% agree and I would add a reworked IV and IV glyph. Spamming mostly IL and FFB during IV is a nerf to our 3 minute (dunno why IV is 3 minute and every other cd like Combustion and arcane power is 1,5) cooldown. Oh and Icicles hits stack the 25k Int wrath trinket.

I have found a little more :
-- Immerseus's trinket have only 1 proc working : the intel's one. Amplification never proc actually. Even with this, I have obtain more than 85k spell power when all star align.
-- frost 4p T16 don't work too.
-- Alter Time work correctly : it restore charge but having a BF charge is more optional than trinket proc now.
-- glyphed IV is really good
-- BF-FFB need a very serious buff. it hit like a wet noodle and do near half waterbolt dps on a whole fight.

[huth]

I have found a little more :
-- Immerseus's trinket have only 1 proc working : the intel's one. Amplification never proc actually. Even with this, I have obtain more than 85k spell power when all star align.

Amplification is passive now. Just in case you didn't notice.

[Deleted]

Ok, thanks. I haven't notice. I think part of my head is still on the beach. It make it really interesting.

[jtmzac]

The new way amp works really messes with reforgelite so if you want to reforge you need to remove the trinket.

The 15,698 cap is 13,770 without the trinket equipped if anyone wants the number.

I'm starting to wish one of the set bonuses wasn't just a passive. They're pretty boring right now.

[Tobedeleted123]

Wow, the amount of changes says they really decided to work a bit over frost before the expansion ends. I hope it ends as a FotM spec.

[Tiga]

Icy Veins is absolutely mandatory as it every FB/FFB generate 3 times more Icicles.

Why would the glyph be mandatory because of Icicles? More Icicles doesn't make them do more damage - each one just hits for 40% of what they would with unglyphed IV. I did a test on the PTR where I used on FFB during IV and one Ice Lance. The FFB generated 3 critical hit FFBs that did a total of 216k damage. The Icicles also hit three times, doing 26k damage. Obviously the crit bug is still on the PTR, because my mastery was 24% (I was using previous tier to get a shorter IV cooldown for testing), so the damage should have been 51.8k.

Alter Time/Icicle interaction feel bugged.

As for Alter Time, the "past you" placeholder shows the Icicles, making it look like your are never consumed. Move slightly after you use Alter Time too see what's happening. The placeholder needs to have the transparency of the Icicles adjusted - that's just a graphics tweak.

[Deleted]

@jtmzac: Haste is multiplicative. it will be 1.53/1.13=1.354% (better value in kuni's post).
@Tiga: the bug will surely be corrected with the new build (like frost's 4pT16).
My reasoning about IV glyph is about this : Haste won't increase as much BF-FFB and FB cast speed as we could ask. But every mini-bolt result in an Icicle. it's not only about number but about gameplay.
For AT, I have found out but you're true. The graphics need more work.

[jtmzac]

The 13% increase from the trinket applies to your rating not the % on your character sheet. So its actually (15968/114)*100=13770.

This keeps it scaling even for all the stats instead of getting better the more haste you get.

[Deleted]

ok thanks, I haven't search for this detail. I'm correcting my calculation.

[Tobedeleted123]

Wondering, will we get a double dip on %dmg increase on a boss? Let's say we get a 100k frostbolt which would store 20k icicle but we get a 100% dmg increase on the boss so frostbolt hits for 200k instead which makes icicle store for 40k. Then we unleash our icicle - will it hit for 40k total or take 100% dmg increase in account and go for 80k? I know ignite for example isn't double-dipping, but this works a bit different. Anyone tested?

[Deleted]

No, it's confirmed that icicle is calculated from "base damage", before buff/debuff/PVPpower/PvPresilience/etc.
But icicle gain benefice from it.

So there's no double dip for buff but resilience don't double dip too

[Decimation2g]

All 3 mage specs keep getting altered this X Pac, finally Frost gets 'bitten'. Any idea how much if at all this new mastery is going to effect our current rotation?

[Tobedeleted123]

All 3 mage specs keep getting altered this X Pac, finally Frost gets 'bitten'. Any idea how much if at all this new mastery is going to effect our current rotation?

As it is just %dmg increase mastery wrapped around a pretty package, I highly doubt it. Maybe you'll want to get rid of icicle stacks before alter time expires. Still not sure how it works.

[Deleted]

for his, you could simply read the previous post. It explain what it does. There's a video too.
In fact, T16 bonus have more impact than the new mastery.