New Frost Mastery: Icicles!

[Methusula]

I just don't react well to Polar's ridiculous sky is always falling approach to making statements.

Any idiot who has spent time looking at parses, guild's kills, and has done raiding themselves knows frost is weak. But to say that it isn't viable is stupid. You can play it and unless you're in the very top guilds (which nearly all of us aren't), you can be one of the top.

Polar, I've looked at your guild. We're both 11/13H, and our DPS are roughly similar. We're roughly the same iLvl as a 25M heroic guild. I am able to not just be viable, but be one of the best DPS in the guild. Yes, I could do more as fire, but the results are there with frost too-- even in its weak state. Compare this to Dragon Soul and maybe you can mark this as some sort of step forward.

If you fix how you play, you could easily be beating nearly everyone in your guild as frost-- if you wanted to. My frost numbers beat your fire numbers across the board.

I don't understand the recent frost nerfs, they are unwarranted. But even with those, I will still beat fire mages, arcane mages, and other classes. I don't feel threatened by anyone. And yes, I realize it's probably just because I outskill them all. Oh well. Just stop giving in. Stop going fire... it's the only way the devs will listen.

I feel ya.

There are people on these forums who are very passionate about their spec or the class as a whole and I'm not sure they realize how repetitive they tend to be with their message.

I'm trying to keep an open mind with what they are doing right now with the number tuning but I admit, it's tough. Frost needs more damage from the water elemental or somewhere that doesn't wreck PvP balance.

[Deleted]

@Akraen: (and some other too)
If I read correctly, from Blizzard point of view, it appear that Fire and Frost was doing to well on PTR compared to other dps and targeted DPS.
They also are a few patch ahead compared of the PTR, so they can anticipate on change and problem. It explain why for them a bug is corrected bug it isn't on PTR.

For me, it confirm something: Frost scaling will be better in 5.4 than we was before. It's the first time I read a nerf since the infamous 4.0.6 nerf

[IsrafaelMage]

For me, it confirm something: Frost scaling will be better in 5.4 than we was before. It's the first time I read a nerf since the infamous 4.0.6 nerf

For me its another confirmation of the fact that blizzard somehow cant decouple pvp and pve spells' hitting power to balance it properly, despite the fact they already done it for the bombs, warrior's CS and some other spells .. Though i hope you are right.

[Sombrelune]

You forget, no fof on unfreezable targets, or 40% of IL cleave in 5.1 (they revert it after). I'm still sceptical in Frost scaling. Maybe we scale better in ST fights, but less than Arcane. In multidoting fights we scale less than arcane too. In Cleave Fights I think we still scale less than Fire.
It's easy to scale better than before. We need to scale like arcane or Fire levels.
I thought this mastery was our answer to PVE scaling, but in reality, it is Blizz answer to Frost pvp burst. Otherwise, they would'nt create a Big Weapon called " Icicles" without giving us ammo.
I should be glad to be flooded with Fof proc, but on the ptr it's: Woot let's spam our less scaling spell.

Before 5.4 our stats priorities was : 2 haste (near 16000)> 1 Int > crit ( 25-28%) > mastery > crit > hast

After it will be the same, but because new stuff it is easier to reach 16000 hast, so we will be gemming int instead of hast.
Don't tell me we'll use intell gem because we want it. It's because our secondary stats sucks overall for us.
Don't tell me like Blizz used to say, that the fact we don't scale well with secondary stat is counterbalanced with a good scaling with Int.
1 Intel is better for frost than Fire, Arcane, Warlock, Sp....? Who believe that?

The only change that save frost and arcane mage was: +40% mage bomb.

I hate when GC says in 5.2 Mages and warlocks was too good. As if all mages are concerned. As if without enought Crit Fire was dominant at the start. As if without 4P T15, arcane could compete.

[Deleted]

I will precise my through:
1- Fire spec scale better than any other spec (before Combustion Nerf)
2- Frost (5.4 ptr) scale a lot more better than Frost (5.3)
3- I don't think they nerf over PvP because it's difficult to build Icicle in arena
4- Multi-doting feel really bad with Frost, more than before.

For stat priority:
a) the RPPM change make haste value to drop after Frostbolt cap.
b) Icicle make intel, crit and mastery to value a lot more
c) if haste*2<intel, it's because Intel value a lot more than before (from 5.5 to 7+).

- - - Updated - - -

edit @sombrelune: stop you're over-dramatisation, please. it began to feel old.

[Sombrelune]

Sorry it is what you get when you have hope and you get desillusion.
Next week we will be fixed.

[Deleted]

This changes are not live yet, but on PTR, frost feels weaker compared to live. There were some fights where I specced frost bomb, but it didn´t felt powerful compared to arcane with frost bomb. Yes you read right, frost bomb arcane!. Sha of Pride nhc is a frost bomb fight if you focus on the add packs. I really tried everything, shattered gCoC, shattered frost bomb, specced to NT (snapshot), but Arcance was always stronger (with the same tools) by a fair margin - with Ilvl 520! Arcane`s mastery scales across the board, not only with 3 spells.
I have no clue how Blizzard gets the idea that this new mastery makes frost so powerful, that frost needed a nerf on top of RPPM nerf. Sure it´s amazing if you have 5 icicles and you cleave 1,5 ice lance and 3.75 frostbolts/frostfirebolts (50% mastery) with one GCD, but I learend the following:

• It takes time to build up 5 icicles
• With a few targets, it takes even more time, because you have to set and refresh dots on all targets
• You cannot always launch the icicles if you want, because you will not always have FoF procs if you need them (Tier 16 set + Multidot = less FoF procs). Galakras as a good example. 3 mobs left, 5 icicles on top of you but no FoF proc. Then you got the FoF proc, but the other 2 died.
• Most of the add packs in SoO don´t have enough life to be worth it to keep casting frostbolt on them to build (ramp up) an icicle cleave. Arcane explosion (Blizzard), Flamestrike and CoC are better for this job, but you will not benefit from your mastery.
• If you use Frozen Orb for trash/add packs you get showered with FoF procs, but maybe only 1 will benefit from mastery and splitting ice. There will be situations in SoO, where you cast a Frozen Orb into a pack and cast CoC, AE or Blizzard instead of FoF Ice Lance (you will only launch the one with icicles).
• There were situations, where I had to cast an Ice Lance without Fof to not waste 5 Icicles

The mastery is not bad in theory (scaling wise), but we won´t see patchwerk or patchwerk cleave fights in SoO heroic raids. There will be fights where you will need a lot of haste (multi dot) or int (fights with a certain amount of cleave) and fights with focused on mastery.

Three different reforge prioritizations for 1 spec. There are enough forum post with "What gems needed for frost?" Frost will become even more a niche and a little bit elitist.

[Deleted]

I tweeted it.

If I read correctly :

• FoF proc too rarely
• Icicle can't be build during Forzen Orb's IL spam, AOE & multi-dot
• AOE feel weak
• not enough control over Icicle's release.

It only confirm what we say from a few time now.

[pyrostorm9001]

I tweeted it.

If I read correctly :

• FoF proc too rarely
• Icicle can't be build during Forzen Orb's IL spam, AOE & multi-dot
• AOE feel weak
• not enough control over Icicle's release.

It only confirm what we say from a few time now.

They should lower FoF under Orb conditions, such as the hidden 20% modifier to generate FoF procs while active or even remove it entirely
Compensate this loss by increasing FoF generation under frostbolt/frostfire bolt to be similar to how they are in 5.3 raid tier gear. (or there abouts)
For AoE allow blizzard to proc icicles (perhaps even frozen orb) as an alternative to NT AoE spam. Depending on how grouped up mobs are etc.

IMO would help a fair bit.


I can dream cant I?

[Deleted]

Yes you already posted it in kuni´s thread. My PTR raid experiences matches with your dungeon and proving ground experiences. I´m really busy at work at the moment, but I just wanted to share my latest PTR impressions.

[Muphrid]

It's not a surprise that the mastery doesn't do anything in an AoE situation. It's a very single-target-oriented mastery. You get Icicles from Frostbolt and Frostfire Bolt. They're not AoE spells. That Ice Lance is what unleashes all Icicles is only somewhat relevant. If you don't want to be casting Frostbolt and Frostfire Bolt in the first place, you're not gonna get any Icicles to dump anyway.

Yes, Arcane's mastery scales everything, and they're a mastery-based spec. Fire's scales everything except what, mage bomb? You could make an argument that Frost's mastery is overly narrow now, sure. Realistically, I expect that the mastery would be tweaked downward if it were more broadly applicable (that is, affected more spells). Still, that would help close the gap on AoE.

If you use Frozen Orb for trash/add packs you get showered with FoF procs, but maybe only 1 will benefit from mastery and splitting ice. There will be situations in SoO, where you cast a Frozen Orb into a pack and cast CoC, AE or Blizzard instead of FoF Ice Lance (you will only launch the one with icicles).

I would encourage people not to think that "Ice Lance" is benefitting from Icicles because Icicles dump when Ice Lance is cast. Your Frostbolts and Frostfire Botls are what benefit. Ice Lance is just there to be a trigger to the Icicles machine gun.

There were situations, where I had to cast an Ice Lance without Fof to not waste 5 Icicles

What are you talking about? Excess Icicles auto-dump, don't they?


I mean, if we want more use from Icicles in AoE situations, perhaps Icicles should affect all spells (or at least, many more than 2 single-target nukes).

[Deleted]

The moment you save FoF and Icicles for a cleave, is the moment your Ice Lance is benefiting from Icicles, because you are amplifying your Icicles by 50% and you can´t do that with any other spell.

Yes, Icicles do autio-dump, but I had Galakras in mind. It´s a fight with add waves like in hyjal (long before my time, but my mates told me that). A few melted, that´s why I had to dump it with non FoF Ice Lance occasionally.

[Muphrid]

The moment you save FoF and Icicles for a cleave, it is the moment your Ice Lance is benefiting from Icicles, because you are amplifing your Icicle by 50% and you can´t do that with any other spell.

Yes, Icicles do autio-dump, but I had Galakras in mind. It´s a fight with add waves like in hyjal (long before my time, but my mates told me that). A few melted, that´s why I had to dump it with non FoF Ice Lance occasionally.

Do you actually have reason to believe that it is mathematically better to dump with a non-FoF Ice Lance for +50% on up to five Icicles?

[Deleted]

In fact, we should stop thinking as X spell benefit from Icicle. It's the reverse: it's Icicle that can be built by X spell and not Y.
In this, we have to think of them like Ignite: indirect damage. But they are stored on the mage and we can choose when to release them and the target, to some extend.

The big question is why it's limited to very few spell? It restrict so much gameplay.

We could have 2 type of spell :

• spell that built Icicles : most of the spell.
• spell that release them : 1 o 2 depending of the situation (single-target/AOE)

[Deleted]

@ Murphid

I was in a situation at Galakras where I had 5 Icicles and the last add was about to die and due encounter machnics, the last frostbolt and frostfirebolt was a few seconds back. So I could not release 5 icicles and lose some, or I release them with a non FoF IL.

Another situation: There are 2 adds or bosses about to die. I have no FoF proc, but 5 Icicles. Now I can choose between

A: Another Frostbolt
B: Non FoF IL cleave with 7,5 Icicles = 3.25 Frostbolt/Frostfirebolt @ 50% Mastery.

@ Nathyiel

Absolutley!

[IsrafaelMage]

We could have 2 type of spell :
spell that built Icicles : most of the spell.
spell that release them : 1 o 2 depending of the situation (single-target/AOE)

We cant have anything now as its already a number-balancing phase. Unless a miracle happens, all mechanical elements are already set in stone Bear in mind that GC said they think mages are 'fine' as class and they wont redesign arcane or frost in next xpac.

[Sombrelune]

I think IsrafaelMage is right. It's too late for mechanical rebuild. We have been told to wait, the number tuning, but no number change will make that icicle can be usefull on aoe/multidoting encounters.
As we already said, it's not the launcher spell but generator spells that cause issue : 3 single target spells ( FB, FFB, Waterbolt). The more targets there are, the less ammo we have to feed Icicles.

[Deleted]

Yes, we know it maybe too late but we will continue to our test. Sometime I feel like all our report, analysis, etc isn't read or taken seriously. I know that not the case, they change IL glyph because of this.

[Kiry]

There is still time for numbers, and the numbers thus far making me hope for more adjustments before live. If they go as they are, I wonder how long Frost will live as a "valid" spec compared to the other two?

[Deleted]

After the long discussion on Tweeter. Here's my through (some already said, some new).

The design
Good on single-target, very good on two target, then less good.
Building Icicle then choosing to delay FoF-IL seem to be part of the design.
Icicle isn't designed for being generated all the time.


Good points
very PvP oriented. building Icicle and banking FoF & BF for release a big burst.


Bad points
not really good to PvE
no interaction with AOE.
contradicting with T16 as it's best use is to cast FoF-IL after BF-FFB
contradicting with Frozen Orb as it's the time we want to built Icicle
over-writing FoF is a strong nerf over any Icicle built. normal IL will be used over FoF-IL for releasing


Comparison with my previous analysis
It only comfort all what have been previously said:

• the spec isn't adapted to actual fight design.
• it don't work good with multi-dot.
• It lack of AOE burst and sustained.

Proposition

• idea n°1 -- I keep all my previous proposition: switch IL and FFB, generating Icicle with IL and releasing them with BF-FFB. FoF proc rate, FoF & BF's damage need to be tuned accordingly. FFB could be delayed more easily than FoF.
• idea n°2 -- make Frozen Orb generating Icicle. It will help both in burst AOE and cleave. Advantage, it will be a really good burst CD with a shower of Icicle & keep IL for release. Inconvenient, a lot of little Icicle.

Conclusion
Blizzard should explain how the wanted it to work. So we can discuss it more easily.