Will there be more talent changes?

[Teriz]

Title says it all: Anymore talent changes on the way? HTT got changed because it had to be changed, but I'm surprised that Blizzard hasn't really touched the lesser used talents. The other classes have gotten pretty significant talent changes. Any chance we will see some more changes, and if so which talents are they going to change?

[Kildragon]

The only thing they said is that they would want to change totemic restoration. Who knows if that's going to happen this patch though. As for the rest.

T1 is pretty decent, especially since they just buffed stone bulwark totem.
T2 has been pretty awesome so far.
T3 really just needs totemic restoration replaced.
T4 has also been pretty solid. Though I wish they would change EM for resto since pure haste buffs are far less valuable for healers than for dps. EotE could also be changed for resto since it's just another rng mechanic.
T5 is obviously getting plenty of attention atm.
T6 is decent overall. Unleashed fury and PE both work well for their intended purposes. The issue lies with EB; it really only fits into ele's play style. I've never played enhance other than for leveling so I don't know how it fits there. For resto however it really just needs to be redesigned. Make it instant or make it targetable at allies and heal them. Priests and druids got plenty of spells that work differently for different specs, they need to do it for resto.

[Deleted]

For PVE enhance PoV, some talents seem a bit off, for example:
T1, Nature's Guardian seems to need some attention. In pve, most cases I go with Bulwark to keep me from dropping low.
T2, Frozen power I'd wish to be reworked only here. Windwalk seems quite potent, too bad there are only a few uses in pve.
T3, I tend to keep CotE just because. I'd wish some rework on the whole tier,
T4, fine for me.
T5, Conductivity I might see some uses, if the bugs will be fixed from ptr.
T6, as Kildragon said, EB isnt in the best place for enhance. I guess it could fit in with practice, but so far I got 8 main abilities and adding one more is quite bad. UF I tend to use from time to time, PE being my main raid talent.

[Kildragon]

For PVE enhance PoV, some talents seem a bit off, for example:
T1, Nature's Guardian seems to need some attention. In pve, most cases I go with Bulwark to keep me from dropping low.
T2, Frozen power I'd wish to be reworked only here. Windwalk seems quite potent, too bad there are only a few uses in pve.
T3, I tend to keep CotE just because. I'd wish some rework on the whole tier,
T4, fine for me.
T5, Conductivity I might see some uses, if the bugs will be fixed from ptr.
T6, as Kildragon said, EB isnt in the best place for enhance. I guess it could fit in with practice, but so far I got 8 main abilities and adding one more is quite bad. UF I tend to use from time to time, PE being my main raid talent.

T1 Even though NG isn't amazing for raiding, I could see a few times where it might be useful. The rest of the tier is great though and NG works well for PvP so I don't think they'll change it.

T2 I just don't see them re working this tier. The cc tiers have been largely untouched for PvE purposes and changing it would cause PvP issues for shamans.

T3 I think TP and CotE work well but TR just needs to go. TP should also just be baseline or at least be a glyph.

T5 I really like this tier atm. Rushing streams will definitely be the least useful for 25 man enhance and AG is still crazy strong. Conductivity though could create a shit ton of extra healing on any fight with medium to low melee movement.

T6 as I said, I don't play enhance but does maelstrom work for EB? I just wasn't sure if it was useful at all. If maelstrom works, it would just let EB replace LB at 5 stacks.

[Pitkanen]

Nature's Guardian is my favorite talent on any fights where the damage is largely periodic or less than 250k generally speaking. Meg/Ji'kun I almost always ran NG because the likelyhood of "Leapfrogging" the proc was fairly low. If they added protection of getting 1-shot through the proc range, I would just always run NG (unless there was something specific I could soak in a fight with 40% DR from AS).

CC tier is fine. I know some people want buffs by making one baseline so they can have 2. But that's really a "I want buffs" issue, or a "I'm underpowered" rather than a "This isn't a hard decision because some of these are terrible"

T3 - Man I wish Projection was baseline. If they do replace restoration, I hope the resulting talent adds +50% range to all totems in addition to whatever else it does. Mainly my issue with Projection is that I can't reach the whole raid when I drop a totem unless I stand in melee on spread fights, but I'd murder the melee by standing in melee. So if I don't take projection I lose 1/3rd of my stormlash and 1/2 my mana tide to people being out of range on some fights (IQon for example).

T4 - As restoration I'd like to see Echo apply to totems or earthliving. But the other 2 options are both compelling based on different gear breakpoints.

T5 - New conductivity makes me sad. For raiding ele it's an "ok" sub, for challenge mode ele it's a big nerf, for solo ele it's a terrifyingly huge nerf. For enh, giving up an extra lightning bolt here and there is pretty lol compared to AG's output. For resto it isn't enough raw blanket healing to out do equally raw-powerful smart heals on the same tier.

T6 - EB is kinda a mess. For ele it's like, you can learn to play half the time with EB for a trivial dps increase but on every random or heavy movement fight EB is a dps loss... so just always be PE and you'll be in good shape. Enh someone already commented on. For resto, just completely trash, since resto doesn't have Sham Rage we basically rely on PE-reinforce to survive in 1/3-1/2 the fights anyways since raids are (well were) designed around all ranged having 10-15% passive DR or tons of DR CD's.

[Kildragon]

Extra range on totems would definitely be awesome but if TP became baseline we wouldn't need it anyways. The tier is centered around totems, but they might need to just redesign the whole thing. CotE is really the only awesome talent, TP needs to be baseline and TR is OP in PvP while being useless in PvE. However, I guess CotE and TP are actually doing their job well. Depending on the fight you can take either one. Maybe just TR really needs to go. What to replace it with though? TP covers the range thing and CotE is a mini readiness. Can't have anything like a throughput increase cause that just throws the entire tier out of whack.

I also just can't bring myself to like EM as resto since it's the kind of CD that makes you waste mana at ludicrous levels for the same outputb increase as say avenging wrath. Echo could be useful if it was a smart heal instead of healing the same target. RNG + single target just makes this talent suck. Or they could go the absorb route, at least the RNG would be acceptable.

Now I know that conductivity was actually awesome as ele, but it sucked for everyone else. The new one will be decent for raiding and while you lost the old one for challenge modes or soloing, you gained HTT baseline and can always go with AG for challenge modes. CDs aren't that great for soloing, but if you adjust your playstyle a bit you'll be fine. Rotate HTT with HST and AG and you'll be fine. As resto, it could actually be awesome for some fights. If they ever have another fight like Ultraxion or Zonozz, this talent would save you a boatload of mana and thereby increase your throughput significantly.

I'm not sure I agree that PE is needed to survive in most fights though. The only classes with baseline damage reduction were warlocks, spriests, boomkins and hunters with AotIH. It's also not the reason for EB sucking for resto. EB either needs to work like atonement on top of its effects or be targetable at friendlies for healing.

[Tiberria]

T1 is mostly a fine tier. I'm not really a huge fan of the fact that we have to use a talent for our survivability CD, when almost every other class gets this baseline, and gets a more interesting talent design, but it is what it is.

T2 - Not hugely relevant for PvE unless you have a specific situational need for one of the talents. Most classes have a CC/PvP utility type talent tier like this

T3 - Honestly, the entire tier is a complete train wreck. Totemic Projection is a quality of life improvement that should be baseline, not something you need to use a talent for. They have already said they plan to get rid of Totemic Restoration. Call of the Elements is also a really weak talent. Outside of situational requirements to get a 2nd Tremor/Windwalk totem or something, gaining an extra HST every 6 minutes effectively feels very weak for a talent. If they replace Totemic Restoration, the problem that they will run into is, it's going to be mandatory unless they make it as equally weak as CoTE/TP. They should just redo this entire tier.

T4 - For Resto, Ancestral Swiftness vs Elemental Mastery is a good, interesting choice. They need to make Echo of the Elements more viable for Resto. They should possibly buff the proc rate, and make it proc off AoE healing, because it is just never going to be used in PvE Resto otherwise.

T5 - I think this tier is fine with the PTR changes. AG and RS are competitive with each other for Resto. Conductivity is a good niche talent that will be competitive with the other 2 on heavily stacked fights. I do worry that RS is not going to be worth it at all for the DPS specs (it will be less than half the healing, as well as a huge GCD sink), and this will result in 99% of Ele and Enhance taking AG. The best fix for that is probably to (1) make the HST glyph baseline so that Ele/Enhance doesn't have to use a glyph slot if they want to take this talent (2) Take HST off Purification, and buff it by 50% baseline so that the difference between Resto HST and DPS HST isn't so huge.

T6 - This tier is a complete train wreck for Resto. None of the talents really feel like they buff the gameplay experience enough to be worthy of being end tier talents. Primal Elementalist is taken by 90%+ of Resto Shaman, and it will only get worse with the new CD reducing trinkets having both elementals on the list. Unleashed Fury just isn't worthwhile, because (1) single target heals are used less and less with every raid tier (2) even if you wanted to use a single target heal, the ULE-single target heal combo is too slow, and your heals will be sniped (3) you want to use ULE with Healing Rain 99% of the time in a raiding environment. Elemental Blast is completely non-viable for Resto. The cast time is too slow, buff doesn't last long enough, and there is no side benefit to the damage it does to make it worth dealing with. I really don't understand why this talent hasn't either been given a healing/damage component like the L90 Priest and Paladin talents, or a seperate design for Resto compared to the DPS specs like Solace and Insanity.

[Pitkanen]

I'm not sure I agree that PE is needed to survive in most fights though. The only classes with baseline damage reduction were warlocks, spriests, boomkins and hunters with AotIH. It's also not the reason for EB sucking for resto. EB either needs to work like atonement on top of its effects or be targetable at friendlies for healing.

True. Most fights is an overstatement. I tend to generalize based on the fights that are actually hard. Lei Shen and Dark Animus (though higher ilvl-health on DA makes it a lot easier) are the ones that come to mind. Without any passive DR, a tick of the dot + interrupting jolt hit for 510k HP... keep in mind that the first players to kill heroic Lei Shen only had 525k hp. There was clearly other reasons beyond spread healing why you shouldn't bring a resto shaman to that fight. Lei Shen transitions, let's just say 20% DR for the entire first transition, then again for the last minute of the fight is EXTREMELY helpful for survival.

Overall, do you laugh or cry when the raid leader says to "use personals" to survive the next attack?

[Roose]

IMO shaman talents are lamest of all classes.

[Teriz]

T3 - Honestly, the entire tier is a complete train wreck. Totemic Projection is a quality of life improvement that should be baseline, not something you need to use a talent for. They have already said they plan to get rid of Totemic Restoration. Call of the Elements is also a really weak talent. Outside of situational requirements to get a 2nd Tremor/Windwalk totem or something, gaining an extra HST every 6 minutes effectively feels very weak for a talent. If they replace Totemic Restoration, the problem that they will run into is, it's going to be mandatory unless they make it as equally weak as CoTE/TP. They should just redo this entire tier.

I would fix T3 by making Totemic Projection a baseline passive.

I would replace it with Elemental Harmony:

Passive: You may summon multiple totems of the same element simultaneously.

And I would replace Totemic Projection with Totemic Focus, a remixed version of old Cataclysm talents;

Passive: You increase the duration of your totems by x%, and their range by x%.

Additionally, I would reduce Call of Elements CD to 2 minutes.

[Raiju]

I would trash T3 completely as a talent tree and redo all 3. Possibly make projection baseline.

[Orangehullo]

T6, as Kildragon said, EB isnt in the best place for enhance. I guess it could fit in with practice, but so far I got 8 main abilities and adding one more is quite bad. UF I tend to use from time to time, PE being my main raid talent.

There was a point in time in 5.2 when I was gearing where EM/EB was winning over EM/PE for me, I played with the rotation and it was actually quite fun You get to juggle two abilities with Maelstrom instead of just one. I've been playing enhance for years though, I think to a new player the EB rotation would be difficult. Shame it's not a better talent right now or else I'd use it.

As for the talents, I agree totemic restoration is unexciting.

[Tiberria]

I would fix T3 by making Totemic Projection a baseline passive.

I would replace it with Elemental Harmony:



And I would replace Totemic Projection with Totemic Focus, a remixed version of old Cataclysm talents;



Additionally, I would reduce Call of Elements CD to 2 minutes.

Your Elemental Harmony idea would make the talent 100% mandatory and completely destroy the other 2 talents. For Resto, especially, 20% more uptime on HTT, HST, SLT and MTT is a huge buff. Even for the DPS specs, 20% more uptime on Fire Elemental would be a massive DPS buff on a tier that doesn't have any other DPS buffs.

On top of that, the only spec that can really benefit from being able to drop more than one totem of the same element in PvE is Resto (HTT/HST/MTT). I can't see how that would at all be attractive for DPS.

[Irisel]

T1) Working just fine
T2) WW totem feels slightly out of place, but this tier is fine I guess.
T3) Remove Totem Restore, baseline Projection, and hit the drawing board for more ideas. Terrible tier.
T4) Biggest complaint is that EotE isn't a smart heal for healers. I would SO take it if it were.
T5) Still a work in progress it seems
T6) None of these talents feels very fun for Resto. While they're all functional, it bores me.

- - - Updated - - -

On top of that, the only spec that can really benefit from being able to drop more than one totem of the same element in PvE is Resto (HTT/HST/MTT). I can't see how that would at all be attractive for DPS.

I think you should really think outside of the box, on this one. There are A LOT of situations, for all three specs in PvP and PvE where two of the same elements, would be a big boost. Fire elemental and Searing, Earthgrab and SBT, Grounding and SLT. I mean, while it's not the biggest of all possible buffs, the class actually is designed around only one element at a time; it would actually be pretty game changing...

[Txiv]

IMO shaman talents are lamest of all classes.

U gonna qualify that statement? What about them do not like?


I love the new options for t1 and 5. I feel like each talent fills a perfect niche fight to fight. Hoping I can actually drop AG for some fights to make off healing a little more interesting .

[Kildragon]

True. Most fights is an overstatement. I tend to generalize based on the fights that are actually hard. Lei Shen and Dark Animus (though higher ilvl-health on DA makes it a lot easier) are the ones that come to mind. Without any passive DR, a tick of the dot + interrupting jolt hit for 510k HP... keep in mind that the first players to kill heroic Lei Shen only had 525k hp. There was clearly other reasons beyond spread healing why you shouldn't bring a resto shaman to that fight. Lei Shen transitions, let's just say 20% DR for the entire first transition, then again for the last minute of the fight is EXTREMELY helpful for survival.

Overall, do you laugh or cry when the raid leader says to "use personals" to survive the next attack?

Yeah you have a point. Resto just doesn't have personal CDs. Just imagine "DON'T MIND ME GUYS... just blowing spirit link so I don't get fucked"
I guess the first tier works decently.

[Teriz]

U gonna qualify that statement? What about them do not like?

I think having a talent that is worse than the Hunter's baseline trap launcher is pretty terrible. I also feel that Echo of Elements and Elemental Blast are pretty lazy, and could use a great deal of upgrading. Finally, Conductivity has been a pretty terrible talent throughout this expansion, and Blizzard actually made it worse in PTR 5.4 when the goal was to improve it.

In general, I think the Shaman talents lack creativity and are pretty lazy in general. Some thinking outside the box would be welcome.

[Kildragon]

I think having a talent that is worse than the Hunter's baseline trap launcher is pretty terrible. I also feel that Echo of Elements and Elemental Blast are pretty lazy, and could use a great deal of upgrading. Finally, Conductivity has been a pretty terrible talent throughout this expansion, and Blizzard actually made it worse in PTR 5.4 when the goal was to improve it.

In general, I think the Shaman talents lack creativity and are pretty lazy in general. Some thinking outside the box would be welcome.

Echo and EB are actually some of the more interesting talents. EB just needs some tweaking to be good for enhance and resto. The overall premise is a good one though. They should have made it instant for enhance but on a longer CD and should have made it a faster cast time for resto and make it heal people or work like atonement.

[Maios]

I think having a talent that is worse than the Hunter's baseline trap launcher is pretty terrible.

Our totems aren't traps.

[Raiju]

Our totems aren't traps.

Speaking of which, I never use it anymore - has earthbind finally been fixed to not be possible to run through (something they did to hunters frost trap many years ago now)