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  1. #21
    It depends if you actually have those 3 proper raids a week, does your guild often cancel raids or are you often missing/switching/pugging people?
    My guild is supposed to raid 2 times a week, but often someone cant come or has holiday or just doesn't feel like raiding, we average at around 1 raid per week and also often start late, so instead of progressing more, we just clear ToT (2/13) on one day.
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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tziva View Post
    1/13 is certainly not bad but it's well below where a guild that claims to be "semi-hardcore" should be.
    That's pretty much what I would say as well. The problem with the expression "Semi Hardcore", is that it's completely subjective what you put in those 2 words. Maybe your guild leader(s) think that by having 1 Heroic kill, they're "semi hardcore". But my guild is 13/13 Heroic and we also consider ourselves as "semi hardcore". So labeling your guild with a term like that, doesn't actually mean much imo.

    Personally, I think that's really low progression - specially with the Legendary Meta gem and cloak. All the gear you must have gotten by now, lots of VP to upgrade 2/2. But in the end, it's up to you. If you feel that's not enough progress, this is a perfect time to search for a new guild

  3. #23
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    Again, I'd like to know from the OP's point of view why the guild's slow to progress. Is it lots of wipes? Sloppiness on what should be farm stuff? Inconsistent attendance so that, yes, they raid 3 nights a week but it's a fluctuating roster (leading to wipes/slop)? An inefficiently run raid?

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    No, 1/13H is pretty casual progression. If you're getting frustrated with your progression, think about applying to another guild with better progression...or, try to find out what is holding you back progression-wise and try to get people to fix their issues.
    I agree, I am in a 10/13HC 25man guild that describes itself as semi-hardcore. We raid 3 times a week for 4hours a night and I would classify us as slightly behind in progress as well.

    1/13HC this late into the Patch is way behind, especially for a guild that describes itself as 'semi-hardcore'.
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  5. #25
    So where does 5/13 H rank? >.>
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  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    That's pretty much what I would say as well. The problem with the expression "Semi Hardcore", is that it's completely subjective what you put in those 2 words. Maybe your guild leader(s) think that by having 1 Heroic kill, they're "semi hardcore". But my guild is 13/13 Heroic and we also consider ourselves as "semi hardcore". So labeling your guild with a term like that, doesn't actually mean much imo.

    Personally, I think that's really low progression - specially with the Legendary Meta gem and cloak. All the gear you must have gotten by now, lots of VP to upgrade 2/2. But in the end, it's up to you. If you feel that's not enough progress, this is a perfect time to search for a new guild
    Alright, lets try and make it less subjective.

    Using wowprogress, your guild will usually have a overall rank associated with it. A purple rank would describe world first / cutting edge type guilds, a blue rank would describe semi hardcore guilds and green generally would be the rest, casual or slow progressing guilds. The OP's guild would fall into that last category.

    However, the main question that the OP's needs to ask himself/herself, is he/she having fun in his/her current guild? Are you enjoying your current guild or find yourself mostly just frustrated? If you are mostly just frustrated and don't really enjoy the raid environment provided, move on and look for another guild. If you like the people but the progress isn't there, you can just go with the flow, or try to actively improve your raids strategy on bosses. From my experience, I've found the more active vent is during a progression encounter (discussion of strategy's or constantly asking why did we just wipe, etc.), the better progressed the guild usually is.

  7. #27
    Your guild is pretty bad. Since you're raiding 25 man, my bet is that you're carrying 5-6 terrible players that hold you back.

    Also, from having recently pugged with a 25 man guild that has a similar progression, the other problem is probably that you're ridiculously slow at pulling bosses. Trash took forever because lots of people would slack, and everytime we got to a boss, we had to wait 5+ minutes because someone decided to afk.

    Either that, or you're not actually raiding as much as you say you do. 12/12 normal can easily be cleared in 4 hours with a pug.

  8. #28
    Do you still wipe multiple times on Heroic Jin'rokh each week? If so, it may be time to replace the people who consistently fail Ionization, blow up Lightning in the puddle, can't kite the Lightning, or die to Lightning Storm

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    Either that, or you're not actually raiding as much as you say you do. 12/12 normal can easily be cleared in 4 hours with a pug.
    This is entirely server dependent. My old server that has a low Horde population has only three guilds that have downed an heroic boss. The next guild in the rankings has only done 4/12 normal. I doubt a PuG would get past Horridon on that realm.

  10. #30
    Many ppl in this thread with heavily distorted perceptions on what general progress level of raiding guilds is. Only about a third of raiding guilds in EU/US have a single heroic boss down (probably closer to just under 40% if you consider not everyone goes for Jin'rokh first). Just over 40% have even cleared 12/12 normal. Median progress is between Dark Animus and Iron Qon normal, up from between Durumu and Primordius just a few weeks ago.

    "Semi-hardcore" covers a very huge range -- both in terms of time spent, in mentality, and in playstyle. You clearly seem like no matter what the designation is that you want faster progress (there are probably guilds that consider themselves full "casual" and have a similar rate of progress, just like there are probably guilds that are trying to be "hardcore" but are maybe barely ahead of you, for whatever reasons).

    So, you have to ask yourself -- are there things that can be done to speed up your current guild's progress (as long as that's what everyone, or a majority at least, wants), or do you need to find a guild that better aligns with your desires ?

    Just remember that folks at mmo-c here have very, very skewed perceptions. They tend to be from higher-end guilds. Just the fact they read/write about WoW outside of the game puts them at a fraction of the population (and also remember that raiders themselves are a fraction of the population). I've seen progress-rate polls on here that indicate that mmo-c readers are a much, much more progressed sample than the greater population. Even at your level of progress, sure, reading on here you'll feel well behind -- but you are ahead of the curve, and there are people probably even on your server that wish they had normal full cleared by this point.

    So, yeah, again -- try to remove yourself from the noise, and ask yourself what you want. Are you having fun where you are ? Is there another guild with as good or better atmosphere but a progress rate you'd prefer ? How much of the atmosphere could you sacrifice for a better progress rate (not that this will have to be the case) ?
    Last edited by Count Zero; 2013-07-20 at 11:13 PM. Reason: typo
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  11. #31
    You're progress isn't great for the time you put in.

    But heres the question that no one has asked: How is your performance in that raid team?

    If you are lower half on performance / die to bad etc then your expectations are too high. If you are one of the star performers then you should try to move on to a guild more suited to your abilities.

  12. #32
    Deleted
    i dont understand, guild progression is more to do then just the time spent raiding per week, when a guild is recruiting, they are recruiting for their own realistic bar, they take on people on similar level, its nothing to do with if its low progression or not.

    a guild that survives is a guild that has like minded people who synergise with each other, top guilds ask for people with high standards on their applications, with WOL to prove it and with a required number on it as well, other guilds have different standards for this.

    a guild that asks for members who need to do 200 k sustained dps and have wol to show it, yet raid 3 hours a day, 3 times a week will usually have better progression then a guild whos bar is for example 100 k yet raid the same amount of time, do you not see the difference in styles here, people seem to fail to accept or realise this, not every one wishes to min max or constantly theory craft.

  13. #33
    Since tier 11 I led groups that were top 100 (and top 50) US on 2nights a week, and 80% of my players were mediocre-good through good (not great). But decent people can accomplish great things with dedication and preparation. You don't have to be an all-star player, but you have to have A+ preparation.

    As people are indicating: You get out of it for the "quality" of effort put into it. EG two hours of video watching, reading abilities, and reading strategy could equal 20hours of progression time of head banging blindly. It relies on everyone coming prepared, understanding boss mechanics, understanding their class mechanics, having macros/setup prepared.

    If you feel your current group has different ideals than you it may be time to move. But "ideals" vary. You will tend to be happiest where other people share the same outlook and goals.

    Lastly, WoW is def similar to real life in that you build a resume. It takes time to get into your optimal group, you either have to show real awesome and/or reliability/preparation/etc. Most people do a few guild hops as they slowly increase the quality of guild they're in.
    Last edited by Justusy; 2013-07-21 at 12:14 AM.

  14. #34
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Roia View Post
    Alright, lets try and make it less subjective.

    Using wowprogress, your guild will usually have a overall rank associated with it. A purple rank would describe world first / cutting edge type guilds, a blue rank would describe semi hardcore guilds and green generally would be the rest, casual or slow progressing guilds. The OP's guild would fall into that last category.

    However, the main question that the OP's needs to ask himself/herself, is he/she having fun in his/her current guild? Are you enjoying your current guild or find yourself mostly just frustrated? If you are mostly just frustrated and don't really enjoy the raid environment provided, move on and look for another guild. If you like the people but the progress isn't there, you can just go with the flow, or try to actively improve your raids strategy on bosses. From my experience, I've found the more active vent is during a progression encounter (discussion of strategy's or constantly asking why did we just wipe, etc.), the better progressed the guild usually is.

    I know how the wowprogress ranking works but that doesn't change the fact, the term "semi hardcore" is being used by many guilds and covers a variety of guilds. It doesn't just cover progression but also mentality and expectations. Does the guild require 300 stat food? Does it require that you have a viable (i.e geared) alt? Does it require that you participate in PTR testing? Does it require a high attendance?

    So, I still don't think you can narrow it down only based on wowprogress rankings tbh.

  15. #35
    We raid 9 hours(probably 30-45min more som weeks) a week on 3 nights and we killed Ra-den 2 weeks ago. While we are towards the top of low hour progression, being in heroics is decent. Always room for improvement though.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by brunnor View Post
    We raid 9 hours(probably 30-45min more som weeks) a week on 3 nights and we killed Ra-den 2 weeks ago. While we are towards the top of low hour progression, being in heroics is decent. Always room for improvement though.
    We're around here too, slightly worse off. 8-9 hours a week spread over 2 nights, and we are 10/13H right now. But we're also 10-man.

    This does bring up an interesting discussion about what semi-hardcore means. Wish we had more specific terms since hardcore only seems to be covering guilds that are always competing for realm firsts if not region/world firsts. 8 hours isn't a lot of time per week, and our guild provides for almost all costs involved in raiding, people can be any class or spec they want with no pressure to change based on output, and in general it is just very laid back. But the people in the guild also perform fairly well, and things you might have to look at when you can't progress in a casual guild certainly are never a problem.

    What is the most important factor? Progression speed? Hours a week? Strictness of rules? Pressure to min/max?

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Zairn View Post
    What is the most important factor? Progression speed? Hours a week? Strictness of rules? Pressure to min/max?
    Progress and hours a week by themselves aren't exactly good metrics in my opinion.
    A dedicated guild can get a lot of progress done with 2 raid days a week while a not so dedicated guild might not even get to clear normal mode with 3 or more days a week.

    What might be a good metric in my opinion would be Progress in relation to time actually spent raiding.
    For example A guild that is 13/13hc with 3 raid days a week is obviously more 'hardcore' than a 8/13hc guild with 4 raid days a week.

    Where exactly the cutoffs between casual, semi-hardcore and hardcore are would be up to discussion though.
    "A raid is when a bunch of people who play the game too much get together to play the game some more"

  18. #38
    Deleted
    As a raider playing on a similar schedule (25m, 4hours 3 nights a week) I really believe your progress is rather poor. And if your guild really considers itself to be semi-hardcore, it's pretty awful.

    There are plenty of guilds who claim to raid 3 times a week, yet consistently put "extra" raid days during progress, so the rankings are rarely trustworthy. However, if you're looking for an honest opinion, My guild has managed to avoid that completely during ToT (except the first week, when we extended the 3rd day by almost 2 hours to down lei Shen). So it's fair to say we spend around 10% more time raiding. We were 1/13hc the 1st night heroics came out and we killed Ra-Den 6 weeks ago, so the difference in progress is quite enormous.

    If you're really serious about raiding, I'd suggest you consider making some changes, since you can obviously get much more from the time you put into raiding. Of course whether it's switching guilds, or trying to improve your current one is up to you. I've never seen you in action, so it's just an assumption, but I imagine your raid lacks either skill, focus, or good leadership.

    To answer your question: I think your expectations aren't too high, if you're willing to put some real effort (preparing food and flasks, putting 100% focus those 3 nights per week). If you really want it, you should aim higher!

  19. #39
    If the guild has raided continuously since the release of 5.2 , than 1/13 is pretty bad indeed. My guild has only started raiding a month ago ( 3d -3h ), we consider our self to be casual, we puged a lot and canceled some raids but we are still on 1/13 as well( with a few more kills coming soon ). If you have good enough credentials, I would suggest to try and apply for different guilds to try your luck elsewhere.
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  20. #40
    We are a 3day guild aswell and are 13/13H since last month, we never added a single raid day, never extended more then 10 minutes, still beat most of the 4day guilds on our server (other then the HC ones who raid 7/7).


    If you're getting frustrated and you believe you're getting held back by other people in your guild, and you want more progress.. Why not look for another guild and take ur chances?


    I was in a similar situation as you a year and a half ago, alot of raiding, shitty progress. I took my chances because I felt like I was getting held back.. and now I'm here, in one of the top 3 day guilds.

    Your expectations are definitely not too high for the amount of hours you put in, but if you are unhappy in your current guild and you feel like you can push more .. go for it.
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