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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalmah View Post
    Your guild is pretty bad. Since you're raiding 25 man, my bet is that you're carrying 5-6 terrible players that hold you back.
    I think guildox tracks something like 200,000 guilds. A guild with a progression rank of 10K is not "pretty bad", when considered in that light. Even if we just consider guilds with nonzero raiding progress in T15 normal, wowprogress shows a 1/13 H guild is in the top 35% of such guilds.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  2. #62
    3 nights a week is sort of the new standard. It's possible to clear a ton of content in 3 night schedules, but it greatly depends on the types of players on the roster.

    You can get a 1/13h guild, you could get a 5/13h, you could get a 13/13h.


    Mostly depends on what type of player you think you are, and what you would fit in with.

  3. #63
    The Lightbringer Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crysthalica View Post
    If you raid 3.5 hours for three nights a week, 1/13H is really, really poor. My current guild just got Ra-den with 4h / 3 nights a week, and my last guild was 10/13H with the same schedule before we stopped raiding mid-June.
    Time spent isn't the best factor to use. Of the two guilds I raid with, one raids 3 nights/10 hours and is 8/13, the other raids 1 night/6 hours and is 11/13. But the later puts in a lot more work researching fights and talking strategy on forums, and also has a larger roster. One is more focused on having fun raiding with each other, while the later is more interested in efficiency.

    A better factor is time to kill a new boss at the OP's level. If you're spending weeks and 20+ hours to kill a new boss at this point in the tier, the skill cap of the raid is probably pretty low. On average my guilds take (well took) between 45 minutes (durumu HC) to 5 hours (DA HC) to kill any boss in one, and between 1-3 raid days in the other.

    But it depends on how much time and focus you spend on farming/clearing, and everything else.

    All that being said, OP, it's probably just a low skilled guild. The mark of a good guild is the ability to either make progress and improve, or find a good strat that just needs to be executed well (which it doesn't seem you are doing.)

  4. #64
    Mechagnome Bombino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tennisace View Post
    The last two guilds I've been in both raid 3 nights a week, for about 3.5 hrs each night.

    In my opinion it feels like we're not doing nowhere near as good as we should be doing for the time we're putting in. It's common where we'll reach a difficult boss and wipe forever on it without us seeming to actually get better with attempts. I'm getting frustrated as to me it seems like other guilds on the server are doing much better with equal or less time.

    Both the guild I'm in and my previous one are currently 1/13 H in 25 man. They both claim to be semi hardcore.

    In the previous tier we were around 4/6H in MSV and just full clear of normals for the other 2.

    Are my expectations too high?
    semi-hardcore, hardcore and casual are terms that vary DRASTICALLY from one person's perception to another.
    If they're your friends and you think they have potential to do more, go get involved with the leadership and take steps to make it better. If you've done that already and you don't think they're up to snuff then get logs and find another guild that will better suit what you're looking for.

  5. #65
    Deleted
    I am raiding in a 8/13 HC guild. 4 days 3h each. And we call ourselfs '' Casual''.
    Its all about perspective. I even dare to say that calling yourself '' Semi-hardcore'' may give some players the stress to realy live up to that '' Semi-hardcore''.
    We've been calling our guild '' Semi-hardcore'' for a long time but the moment we decided to go '' Casual'' our raids have only been getting better. Quicker progress and people overall being alot happier in the guild.

    I would say that you need to evaluate a couple things for yourself:
    - Am I happy with the people I play with?
    - Do I want more progress for the time I spend?
    - Do I have what it takes for a more '' Hardcore'' guild?

    Other than that. Good luck with your decision!

  6. #66
    Deleted
    It's hard to say if a guild is progressing well when there's so many things factoring into it. If you have a solid team with a good composition of classes and specs and they're all regularly attending and on time, you will progress better. It also depends on when your raid team started and the ilvl your team's members had.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by unrealeck View Post
    It's hard to say if a guild is progressing well when there's so many things factoring into it. If you have a solid team with a good composition of classes and specs and they're all regularly attending and on time, you will progress better. It also depends on when your raid team started and the ilvl your team's members had.
    I really don't think any of that is relevant. When looking at your progression you just need to ask yourself if you're enough content for the time you put in it. If the OP thinks he doesn't get his bang for his buck, then his progress is slow. And when compared to other guilds with the same schedule, that fact is even more apparent.

  8. #68
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    4 pages in and OP hasn't bothered to come back....

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Crysthalica View Post
    If you raid 3.5 hours for three nights a week, 1/13H is really, really poor. My current guild just got Ra-den with 4h / 3 nights a week, and my last guild was 10/13H with the same schedule before we stopped raiding mid-June.
    my guild raids 3 hrs a week 4 times a week and were on 2/13 hc 25 man with best try on ji-kun hc at 50% on 1st night of attempts had 2 raid nights this week wiht only 18 ppl but hey its summer so what can i do
    Last edited by thunderdragon2; 2013-07-22 at 11:59 PM.

  10. #70
    Kind of missing the key element here.. how many lockouts have been used for that progression?

    If it's since release, then, yes, you should expect more, that is way too many hours for barely 1 new boss a week. I hope you enjoy it, I know I wouldn't.

  11. #71
    The amount of hours you raid should have nothing to do with how hardcore you raid is. It's all about the attitude and the standards you hold your players to. We only raid 9 hours a week but I almost guarantee we hold ourselves to higher standards then most guilds that raid more hours then we do.

    You have to decide what you want out of raiding. I raided super casual in cata with some really great players that I raided hardcore with before. We had pretty shit progression for how good of players we were (7/13H, 6/7H, 8/8 at 15%) but we had tons of fun being casual and screwing around. When they stopped playing I decided I wanted to take raiding seriously again.

    If you want better progression then find a guild that has the attitude you want with the skill to back it up.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Gliff View Post
    You have to decide what you want out of raiding. I raided super casual in cata with some really great players that I raided hardcore with before. We had pretty shit progression for how good of players we were (7/13H, 6/7H, 8/8 at 15%) but we had tons of fun being casual and screwing around. When they stopped playing I decided I wanted to take raiding seriously again.
    This is pretty emblematic of what I'm talking about with regard to the tunnel-vision people have ... you refer to 8/8h in DS at 15% debuff as shit progression, but even now only about 22% of guilds have a heroic Madness kill ... it's like someone who makes $155,000 a year saying his/her job pays shit since you're only at the 90th percentile instead of at the 99th making $550,000 ...

    People just don't realize how far removed from the typical experience they are.
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  13. #73
    1/13HC is nice progres in casual guild. But it is not semi-hardcore, just casual.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Count Zero View Post
    This is pretty emblematic of what I'm talking about with regard to the tunnel-vision people have ... you refer to 8/8h in DS at 15% debuff as shit progression, but even now only about 22% of guilds have a heroic Madness kill ... it's like someone who makes $155,000 a year saying his/her job pays shit since you're only at the 90th percentile instead of at the 99th making $550,000 ...

    People just don't realize how far removed from the typical experience they are.
    It was shit progression for the players that we had and the skill that they possessed. If we had taken it more seriously we could have easily been WAY better. Just scale it down to a lower level to put it into perspective to someone less skilled. Instead of Madness at 15% with the skill to get it at 0% nerf make it 30% with the skill to get it at 15%. It is still the same concept.

    I do understand that I am not in the "typical wow player" bracket.

  15. #75
    Casual doesn't necessarily mean 'bad'.

    Anyhoo, I'd think your expectations aren't set too high at all. In my opinion, 1/13 HC with those raid hours is pretty horrid (excuse the expression). Personally my guild started a whole 2 months after ToT came out, we were severely undergeared after a long hiatus, and we are currently sitting at 5/13 HC with 10-12 hours of raiding per week. Which I would consider to be pretty bad to be honest. There are tons of guilds out there with similar raid hours to yours but with better progression, I suggest you start looking.

  16. #76
    If you raid 10 hours a week and still sitting on 1/13 heroic you are wasting your time, get the F out of there asap and find something else.


    Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake

  17. #77
    You know as much as people like to take swipes at Dragon Soul. It was about right for how hard it was. It's main problem was it was out too long and a bit short. You can look at this thread and what people expect now and really understand why your seeing so many guilds disband and the raiding scene turn to what it is.

    Your guilds are doing fine and for the amount of time your raiding is fine. The question I have is more a long the lines of why that's the new new.

  18. #78
    Deleted
    Too little info about the actual guild to answer.
    4/6H in T14 have nothing to do with your T15 progression if you changed people or started late/ canceling raids.
    1/13H on 25 in really not "bad" but certainly not "Good". the sole fact you run 25 means you have little more invested people that pull your guild forward and not starting their own 10man, or you are all at same level of skill which is currently required (as 25 you certainly not lack on gear).

    Our guild for example rund 4x3 hours a week, we got 4/6H in MSV like you. We keep fairly big bench to prevent raid canceling and to "motivate people". We spent about 4 weeks on Normal LeiShen and now we are on 7/13H with new HC boskill every week.

    Solutions that i would do: tell your leaders that you can be better if you do "certain things" and see what it does (more recruitment of better people and benching the failers, different boss to try on HC, you should be on horridon but if you cant make the numbers than try Tortos or Jikun).
    Or simply find a better guild if this one doesnt suit you. with your time you can be in better.

  19. #79
    It seems the general consensus is that the time you're spending isn't acceptable for your progression. I'll agree to an extent. Progression is all about the combined skill level of your raid for the most part. Some people in your raid might be holding you back, so it may be exactly where your progression should be for the skill level your raid is at. Another issue could be you aren't analyzing fights properly, when you wipe what are you doing? Are you just assuming you're doing it right because you saw a strat do it that way so you end up bashing your heads for a while till everything rng related clicks or are you analyzing mistakes that the raid is making?

    I would suggest a couple of things:

    1. Think about the strength players in your raid, are there people completely holding you back or is it something else? If so, what can you do to fix this, can you help these people or are you willing to drop them for someone else to help better the raid?

    2. Are you analyzing what is actually happening when you wipe? If you don't know what happened or caused the wipe then you need to figure it out, don't guess, use Worldoflogs and skada to analyze mistakes/deaths to help you fix issues.

    If neither of the above are issues then it may be that you guys aren't taking yourselves too seriously and you may want to reevaluate the direction your raid wants to take. This of course is assuming you want to follow the consensus that people in this thread believe which is that your time isn't being spent to the coined term for your raid which you said is "semi hardcore".

    MY opinion and what I would call you is a casual raiding guild, but I have always believed that there is a break off point for these titles of raiding. I deem them like this:

    -"Hardcore raiding guilds" are guilds that strive to be the best in the world, their respective regions, or their server and thus they tend to raid 4-7 days a week for 3 or more hours and usually clear all progression within a month or two.

    -"Semi-hardcore raiding guilds" are guilds that strive to clear all content within a tier as fast as they can, but raid a reasonable amount of time in order to do this. They tend to raid 3-5 days a week for 3-4 hours and clear all content within the patch, most before major nerfs.

    -"Casual guilds" are guilds that want to raid but don't want to necessarily raid a lot. They tend to clear some or all of normal content with some heroics, they have varying raid schedules but you usually see these guilds raid 2-4 days a week for 2-3 hours.

    This is how I have personally classified guilds, I classify them this way from experience and what I see on forums, I am currently in what I would deem a semi-hardcore guild and in no way would I classify your guild as such. The easy heroic encounters nowadays aren't usually too impressive so there are plenty of people who clear them after normal, it doesn't make them heroic raiders or hardcore in any sense of the word because it's usually done after some kind of nerf (gear or mechanics). I think too many people assume that they are hardcore once they reach the point of heroics. But I do not think being hardcore has everything to do with the content you are in, it is the time you invest and your rate of completion of content.
    Last edited by Tehillim; 2013-07-23 at 10:31 AM.

  20. #80
    It all depends on the expectations of the group. If you expect to be 9/13 by next tier, then yes its horrible. Raiding more doesnt automatically mean you should have farther progression. My guild runs 2 nights at 3the hours a night. We are 7/13 right now.

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