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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Teknicon View Post
    Casual doesn't necessarily mean 'bad'.
    I cannot stress how much i agree with this enough.

    Progression is usually based on 3 things:

    The attitude of the raid(how seriously you take it)
    The skill of the raid
    How many hours you guys raid

    There are guild that are serious and raid 16 hours a week but are not as skilled. They may have the same or worse progression as a serious 9-10 hour a week guild that are much more skilled.

    Casual =/= bad

    hardcore =/= good

  2. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by Lackluster View Post
    If you claim to be "semi-hardcore" and raid over 10 hours a week I feel that you should definitely be over 1/13 hc. Many pugs on my realm do 2/13 with some even pushing for 4 or 5 heroic bosses. Unless your guild has had some serious difficulties maintaining a stable roster, it would be reasonable to expect more progress.
    I think that 1/13 is pretty damn good, hell my server does not have Pugs. Havent had pugs since the shared lockouts. I would love to have cleared Normal, haven't even fought the 3rd boss in the first wing.

  3. #83
    I am raiding in a casual raiding guild with some friends we raid 2 raids per week and 3h per raid and for ToT we started about 2 months late because we reformed the guild switched server, We had a few attendance problems but we pretty much sorted it now and we are currently 6/13 hc.

    We raided 3 times per week at 3 per raid last tier and got 10/16 hc and then took a break until 2 months into ToT

  4. #84
    As you can see from the answers, there are people who consider this progression normal while others consider it slow. None seems to consider it fast. The obvious fact is: Considering time spent versus success, there are many better guilds out there. The not so trivial question is: Do you belong there? Is it you who plays a lot better than the others, or is it you slowing the progress down? Do you want to change your guild's success, or do you want to change your guild?

    For me personally, I always tried to help the raid progress faster in any way imaginable. I searched tactics, I read up stuff, I tried to find out what went wrong in the wipes, I tried to encourage people, I tried to play better from try to try myself. In two guilds in my wow history, this became futile as nobody else did that, I did not feel good raiding anymore, and finally quit. For me, raiding is the most fun if done with people of the same mindset.
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  5. #85
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    There have been allot of great responces in this thread but I would just like to add that in game raid time is as crucial to progress as out of raid prep work!

    I'm in a guild that raids 4 hours a week total! We are currently 2/13H and should be 3 or 4/13 this week. The thing is for us everyone puts in a good chunk of non raid time looking up strats, reading up, and in general comming prepared. We know we don't have allot of raid time and as such we come in ready to go and fix the issues we had the week before. If you are just throwing 3 to 4 days of 3 hours at the bosses and hopping more time will get them dead while not fixing past issues from the previous raid then your just baning your head on a wall!

    With the amount of raids you do you should be much further into heroics than 1/13 in my opinion but again the amount of raiding you do is not the only important thing it's also the prep and after raid work. Have a member that keeps fuckign up on ability X? work with them to see if you can help setting up a weak auras or talk about what they don't get. Strat seems good on paper and ofr other guilds but isnt working for you? Come on mmo champ with your WOL ask questions try figuring something out to iron that part out. Got a raid member that isnt doing the DPS they should work with them or a forum to go over logs and see what the issue is be it rotation, UI, speck, gearing etc etc

    Prep work is a HUGE part of a successfull raid team! like I said 4 hours total a week for us and even with 4 weeks of missing one of our raiders on 10 man and pugging one in ...several 9 man nights early in the tier as well we are still working at getting to 3 or 4/13 this week! This is due to prep work as we just don't have enough time to throw ourselves at a fight for hours on end!

  6. #86
    I wonder how they were during Normal Modes before the jump into Hc. My last raid was pretty good clearing Normals, but was terrible when you put them into a Hc run.

  7. #87
    I am Murloc! zephid's Avatar
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    That is very poor progress to be honest. The guild I'm in also raids 3 nights a week for about 4 hours (19-23:00), and we are 13/13 hc this tier and we were 16/16 hc last tier, all 25m of course.

    I think the problem with "only" raiding 3 nights a week is that you attract a lot of casual players, players that doesn't really have what it takes when it comes to heroic raiding. So the only advice I have to give you is to make sure that everyone in the guild has the same goals. It's very hard to progress if half the guild doesn't really know their class well enough, have wrong gems, wrong reforge, wrong rotation etc. Just because you raid less than the really hardcore (5-6 days/week etc.) doesn't mean that you can't have the same mentality when it comes to optimization of you character, strategy etc.
    Last edited by zephid; 2013-07-24 at 01:57 AM.

  8. #88
    Pit Lord Odina's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zephid View Post
    Just because you raid less then the really hardcore (5-6 days/week etc.) doesn't mean that you can't have the same mentality when it comes to optimization of you character, strategy etc.
    THIS canno't stress this enough! If you have the mentality to do better and improove but are surounded by people that are ok with the progress you have / don't really care to improove then chances are your not gonna have a good time! Wiping all night on a boss with a team that has the same mentality (be it "hey were having fun wtv" or " lets see wtf we can do to get this shit dead") will make the world of difference for your raid experience!

  9. #89
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    No, 1/13H is pretty casual progression. If you're getting frustrated with your progression, think about applying to another guild with better progression...or, try to find out what is holding you back progression-wise and try to get people to fix their issues.
    casual term used in order to discribe that you dont have time and you play every now and then since they raiding for the same amount of time with guilds that they have 8/13 hc + they are bad not casual

  10. #90
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevkul View Post
    I really don't think any of that is relevant.
    It's perfectly relevant to guaging whether a guild is progressing well or not. Everything I mentioned is a factor in how effective a guild will be.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by unrealeck View Post
    It's perfectly relevant to guaging whether a guild is progressing well or not. Everything I mentioned is a factor in how effective a guild will be.
    Not really. If your guild is 1/13H after raiding every week for 10 hours because you are forced to use six druids or something, that doesn't change the fact you are progressing poorly. The only thing that really matters to a player is the ratio of effort/reward, or how much progress they get for the time they put in.

    What you mentioned in your post was that things like raid composition and average ilvl could affect it. No shit. But whatever is causing the poor progression doesn't mean you aren't progressing poorly. You still are, regardless of the causes.

  12. #92
    It's nowhere near semi-hardcore. At this point, I would call 1 heroic boss as casual.

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by rinleezwins View Post
    It's nowhere near semi-hardcore. At this point, I would call 1 heroic boss as casual.
    It's maybe the top 5% of the player population. Is that "casual"?
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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  14. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by rinleezwins View Post
    It's nowhere near semi-hardcore. At this point, I would call 1 heroic boss as casual.
    If 1 heroic boss is casual, what is the line for semi-hardcore ? 3 ? 6 ? 8 ?
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  15. #95
    Elemental Lord clevin's Avatar
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    5 pages, no appearance by OP.

  16. #96
    I am Murloc! Ealyssa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rottenpen View Post
    they are bad not casual
    Exactly this. I won't enter in the "what semi-hardcore mean" debate (hint : hardcore has a meaning. Even with "semi" in front). But with 10+h/week 1/13 is bad actually. No matter how you turn it. If your guild raided for 10 hours every week since T15 release and only achievment in late july ONE heroic boss, your guild is in the bad (or poorly skilled if you prefere) range of guild.

    And it has hardly to do with some "average guild progress". If you play a lot your are allready NOT in the "average guild" then why compare with them ?
    But that's not a judgment. If a guild manage to have 25+ people willing to put so much time in raiding even without being that good kudos to them, at least it shows that they really enjoy playing together (and actually I may prefere this than guild hopers leaving when a boss take 1-2 weeks too long to die for them).
    Quote Originally Posted by primalmatter View Post
    nazi is not the abbreviation of national socialism....
    When googling 4 letters is asking too much fact-checking.

  17. #97
    Deleted
    my guild raids 5 nights/week and we are 5/13h. but we seem to progress to about 10% on a boss then quit and try another. We could be 8/13h if we were more persistent. But we have fun, are pretty laid back and casual (in the sense that we don't try to be super cutting edge)

    My point is: if you are having fun with your guild, a shitty progression is acceptable. If you are not having fun with them, then move on.

  18. #98
    Honestly OP if you want any real answers go download an addon and post us logs of the fights. Only then can we tell you if your guild is getting anywhere or if they are stuck due to lack of knowledge
    ...Made it through 9 years of wow...

  19. #99
    Have you been raiding since ToT came out? If so, then 1/13 by now is probably well below par.

    I'm currently 12/12 normal in a 3x3hr raid week. Is this bad this far into 5.3? Absolutely. Considering our guild has only been together 2 weeks and only 2 or 3 members had more than 6/12 when we began, and we've been cycling trials in and out and we've only ever had the same team twice? Not so bad. Perhaps a little, depending on who you ask.

    But take any answers you find here with a grain of salt - as a general rule, the kind of people who peruse these forums will be more engaged and involved players, and therefore will probably be better progressed than the "average" player.

  20. #100
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Roia View Post
    Alright, lets try and make it less subjective.

    Using wowprogress, your guild will usually have a overall rank associated with it. A purple rank would describe world first / cutting edge type guilds, a blue rank would describe semi hardcore guilds and green generally would be the rest, casual or slow progressing guilds. The OP's guild would fall into that last category.

    However, the main question that the OP's needs to ask himself/herself, is he/she having fun in his/her current guild? Are you enjoying your current guild or find yourself mostly just frustrated? If you are mostly just frustrated and don't really enjoy the raid environment provided, move on and look for another guild. If you like the people but the progress isn't there, you can just go with the flow, or try to actively improve your raids strategy on bosses. From my experience, I've found the more active vent is during a progression encounter (discussion of strategy's or constantly asking why did we just wipe, etc.), the better progressed the guild usually is.
    Roia probably gave the best advice in this thread. It's kind of amusing when people from Huhuholics and Trolltyg post when they're among the higher ranked guilds in Europe that raid on a 3day schedule (which is only a small fraction of the 3 day raiding scene). The quality between the op's guild and their is miles between them so of course 1/13hc is going to be rubbish. Then again, both thoose guilds progress is pretty bad compared to Pure's and Old School's progress (who also got outperformed by two weeks by the US). It all comes down to who you compare yourself to and I'm pretty sure op isnt comparing his guild with the highest ranked 3 day raiding guilds in the world since he's coming from a guild with similar progress that his current guild is at.

    The question comes down to what Roia wrote. Do you have fun with the people you play with. If not - then you should probably ask yourself if you're one of the higher performing players in the guild - if so then perhaps its time to step it up a notch and apply to a guild who is a few heroics into progress and learn to progress through that aspect of raiding.

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