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  1. #61
    PvE players wanted epic raids. AN had that catchphrase "The entire game is the endgame!", but I'm not sure they actually believed that would work.
    "The whole game is endgame" refers to the Guild Wars franchise not having a bimodal endgame. Any expectation otherwise is reader ignorance and/or misunderstanding.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Pourekos View Post
    Thanks for the answer, it is greatly appreciated. If I may, just to follow from what you said, did they specify if all ascended pieces will be crafted or if only the new ones? Also, if I remember there were some sort of high material requirements that could only be obtained through the Fractals, did that change as well? Finally, is crafting still RNG based or have they improved the success rates?

    Thanks again and all the best.
    The only other things we know is the Ascended craftable gear will require the new materials they'll be putting in before the end of the year. Obtaining these mats will require doing various activities and doing some sort of daily thing. Mats will be tradable. Then from there you'll have to level your prof to 500 (cap is increased when this goes live) and you'll only be able to craft one ascended piece of gear a day, and I can't remember if I said it before but those pieces will be account bound. I think that is pretty much all they have said about it so far though. Oh and this will happen by the end of the year.

  3. #63
    Scarab Lord Karizee's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pourekos View Post
    Finally, is crafting still RNG based or have they improved the success rates?

    I'm a bit confused here, can you explain? There is no and never has been any RNG with crafting. All crafts have very specific recipes which each produce 1 of a specific item.
    Valar morghulis

  4. #64
    "The whole game is endgame" refers to the Guild Wars franchise not having a bimodal endgame. Any expectation otherwise is reader ignorance and/or misunderstanding.
    Maybe so, but that's NOT how it was pitched. The way it was pitched was completely backwards to how it was implemented.

  5. #65
    Maybe so, but that's NOT how it was pitched. The way it was pitched was completely backwards to how it was implemented.
    That was how it was pitched. I can't recall Anet ever using the statement or as anything but contrast from 2nd era/currently popular MMO design philosophy.

    The entire pitch since 20057 was one based primarily on philosophy. Stressing their development philosophy was on the Guild Wars websites for years even.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-07-25 at 03:56 PM.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Pourekos View Post
    Finally, is crafting still RNG based or have they improved the success rates?
    you must be confusing crafting with something else or a different game. There is no RNG involved with crafting

  7. #67
    From what I gather one turns bored by GW2 fast. Haven't tried it myself, but a couple off IRL's friends tried it some time ago, and barely saw them sticking to it. Just like now with wow, that they wanted to play for some pvp thing...

    MMO players needs something that aint wow for a fresh new exsperience, but still got the MMO themepark over it. Rift does this well I guess, but its still to similar to wow.
    Youtube channel: https://www.youtube.com/c/djuntas ARPG - RTS - MMO
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  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    you must be confusing crafting with something else or a different game. There is no RNG involved with crafting
    I suspect the user probably meant collecting the vials of blood, fangs, etc. Perhaps incorrectly applying that mechanic to crafting. They are related, but as you said the play mechanics of crafting itself are not RNG based.

  9. #69
    That was how it was pitched. I can't recall Anet ever using the statement or as anything but contrast from 2nd era/currently popular MMO design philosophy.

    The entire pitch since 2005 was one based primarily on philosophy. Stressing their development philosophy was on the Guild Wars websites for years even.
    If you look at some of their early pitch stuff, there was verbiage like, "Unlike other games, you don't have to get to max level to see the epic encounters in GW2!"

    Now granted, the term "Epic" leaves a lot up to interpretation, but the usage of the comparison to other games led people to believe that right from the start you'd see encounters that were comparable to the "Epic encounters" in those other games. Challenging encounters that required a lot of teamwork and coordination and whatnot.

    Instead it was the exact opposite, there really aren't any encounters that are comparable to the "epic encounters" in other games at all.

    In other words, instead of "Level 1 is just like Level 80!" it was more like "Level 80 is just like Level 1!" which sounds like the exact same thing, I know, but suggests very different outcomes.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I suspect the user probably meant collecting the vials of blood, fangs, etc. Perhaps incorrectly applying that mechanic to crafting. They are related, but as you said the play mechanics of crafting itself are not RNG based.
    Ah, I was figuring he was referring to making things in the Mystic forge because that does have RNG to it. But the RNG of getting mats can also be frustrating.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    If you look at some of their early pitch stuff, there was verbiage like, "Unlike other games, you don't have to get to max level to see the epic encounters in GW2!"
    But you don't. Large scale encounters are present in all zones throughout the 1-79 process. The statement is true absolutely.

    "Epic" as personal interpretation of challenge & coordination [both of which too loose to even care about] are up to the reader.

    Instead it was the exact opposite, there really aren't any encounters that are comparable to the "epic encounters" in other games at all.
    That is personal opinion. And not one we can or should ever care about either.

    "This game is so epic!"
    "This game isn't epic at all!"

    Worthless.

  12. #72
    Kinda silly how you quoted every part of my post but one, and then made another post just to say what I said in the part that was left out. Silly Fency.

    In any case, my point remains. There was a VERY strong implication of "Level 1 is just like Level 80 (in other games)!" rather than "Level 80 is just like Level 1!" The point can be made just fine without defining "epic" at all. (Which is why I said what I said about epic in my post in the first place.)

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Ah, I was figuring he was referring to making things in the Mystic forge because that does have RNG to it. But the RNG of getting mats can also be frustrating.
    Actually the mystic forge recipes are set. Now the one part of it that is RNG is when you put in weapons, or armor to get another one created. I don't really consider that crafting though.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Kinda silly how you quoted every part of my post but one, and then made another post just to say what I said in the part that was left out. Silly Fency.
    users don't actually have to quote an entire post. In fact, we advise in our guidelines not to as it makes formatting quite an eyesore.

    In modern message boarding, a quote that includes either a link or specific poster name in the header implies one is addressing the post in total. Especially when the quoited text is solely posted. Despite the contents of the actual quote box too.

    Whereas quoting without the poster name or link back implies one is addressing a more general idea- which may or may not be related to the quoted text specifically. Not including a name or link back, would be addressing what is specifically quoted within but not the user or source.

    Posting in-line, that is to say as a proceeding post but with no specific quote, is addressing a theme or conversation in-line with the thread.

    So we can just isolate text to speak to a point(s) as such:

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy
    I love Farcry 3 Blood dragon! STUFFSTUFFSTUFF.
    Me too, Billy! Such a great aesthetic. Blahblahblah.

    Farcry 3 Blood Dragon is the quintessential FPS!
    Well, I agree it is quite good. However, I feel other games in the genre... yaddayaddayadda.

    I am fairly good at message boarding. I am after all an admin of an entire meta message board about message boarding culture; message boarding connoisseurs club [MBCC for short]. I do take the medium rather seriously.

    In any case, my point remains. There was a VERY strong implication of "Level 1 is just like Level 80 (in other games)!" rather than "Level 80 is just like Level 1!" The point can be made just fine without defining "epic" at all. (Which is why I said what I said about epic in my post in the first place.)
    "Epic" isn't the sole qualifier here. Challenge and coordination are just as dubious.

    Large encounters occur throughout the game. The reference of "the whole game is endgame" is one of contrast from bimodal, vertical scaling MMOs. One which Anet were always keen to contrast themselves from philosophically through the whole of the GW series. Including GW1, yes.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-07-25 at 04:56 PM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Actually the mystic forge recipes are set. Now the one part of it that is RNG is when you put in weapons, or armor to get another one created. I don't really consider that crafting though.
    Recipes are set, what you get back isn't always what you want though. Like with the Mystic clovers. And when you put in weapons you have a chance to get a "better" one but you don't always.

    And no I don't think of it as crafting either, but I was just trying to think of what he might be thinking of when talking about RNG and that was the first thing which occurred to me.

  16. #76
    users don't actually have to quote an entire post. In fact, we advise in our guidelines not to as it makes formatting quite an eyesore.
    That wasn't the point at all, and you know it. I had already made a point that the word "epic" left a lot to interpretation, but you decided to not quote that part and then make your own post saying the same thing and suggesting that my entire post was invalid because I used "epic" as some kind of absolute which I clearly did not.

    "Epic" is the sole qualifier here. Challenge and coordination are just as dubious.
    Again, wrong. Epic was their word, and I made a point of saying that simply was up to interpretation. It is not the sole qualifier at all.

    Large encounters occur throughout the game. The reference of "the whole game is endgame" is one of contrast from bimodal, vertical scaling MMOs. One which Anet were always keen to contrast themselves from philosophically through the whole of the GW series. Including GW1, yes.
    The problem with that is that they made a point of referencing the content in other games. Had they NOT done that, then your whole "philosophy" and "1=80 is the same as 80=1" stuff would be closer to the truth, but they did do that so it's moot.

    They made a very specific point of referencing end game content in other MMO's when discussing this topic. They brought it up, pointed at it, and said, "In GW2, you don't have to be max level to experience that content!" so yes, by doing that they created an expectation that "Level 1 in GW2 will have content like Level 80 in other MMO's!" and not, "Level 80 in GW2 will be just like Level 1 in any MMO!"

    Now, you can argue the semantics of this until you're blue in the face, but the fact is that they presented it that way. I'm sure it was a very well thought out marketing strategy and creating the "Level 1 is just like Level 80 in other games!" image was very much intentional because I'm not sure that saying the closer-to-the-truth line of, "Level 80 in GW2 is just like Level 1!" would have been met with nearly as much enthusiasm from people.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    That wasn't the point at all, and you know it.
    No, I don't know it. You seemed to be suggesting [and still are] that I did not address or left out some important part of your post via quote snipping. When I did address your entire post and am doing so now.

    There is no definite value to things like "epic", challenge or coordination in the context of games that are played by a vast array of players. What one reader considers epic or challenging might differ from another reader &/or from Arena.net's interpretation of those values.

    It might be Arena.net do consider that content epic, challenging, etc, etc. Personal barometer of what is or isn't challenging, epic, mind blowing, demanding, whatetc is not really useful.

    How can one even design for millions of desperate player personal values of challenge?

    Again, wrong.
    I know. I mistyped. I did correct it in the post. Meant to say, "isn't".

    The problem with that is that they made a point of referencing the content in other games. Had they NOT done that, then your whole "philosophy" and "1=80 is the same as 80=1" stuff would be closer to the truth, but they did do that so it's moot.

    They made a very specific point of referencing end game content in other MMO's when discussing this topic. They brought it up, pointed at it, and said, "In GW2, you don't have to be max level to experience that content!" so yes, by doing that they created an expectation that "Level 1 in GW2 will have content like Level 80 in other MMO's!" and not, "Level 80 in GW2 will be just like Level 1 in any MMO!"
    The "whole game is endgame" tagline is true of GW2. There is no bimodal endgame, large events occur throughout the whole game before level cap and there is no direct gating to their open world content. Even in contrast to other MMOs.

    Like for example, you can't do events in Ashora in Rift at any level. One can't even hit the mobs until a level and gear threshold is reached. The reward structure itself is even split- one isn't even on the same tract of progression in Eastern Holdings/Kingsward as they would be in Steppes/Dendrome, etc, etc.

    This is also true in Warhammer's events- where content is gated by level and damage differentials. The reward structure of the later zone PQs do not scale either.

    Games with a bimodal endgame & instanced raiding often use of a post-level cap progression cycle. Where character progression is relative to the next instance or tier. By the nature of post-cap advancement these typically occur after a level cap [natch] is reached. Or in tiered systems [such as EQ] still require a given threshold of level &/or acquisition. Logically, level 1=80/80=1 can't exist in these systems as it does in GW2. That is a major design difference.

    In GW2, large scale events happen form level 1 through 80. Those events are not directly blocked off or prohibitive by gear or level. There is no explicit vertical reward progression through such either. No bimodal endgame.

    Describing Anet's development approach [I am not even sure Anet used the tagline directly either] in contrast to other games as "the whole game is endgame" is accurate to how GW2 is played and designed. And also how the entire series was created, advertised and contextualized.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2013-07-25 at 05:45 PM.

  18. #78
    You talk like such a politician.

    Anyway, we're bogged down in details about games now. Lets go back to the original point here:

    "The whole game is endgame" refers to the Guild Wars franchise not having a bimodal endgame. Any expectation otherwise is reader ignorance and/or misunderstanding.
    All I'm saying is that I don't think it's unreasonable for people to have another expectation because of how ANet presented it. (and indeed, how I'm sure they intended it to be taken.)

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Arlee View Post
    Ah, I was figuring he was referring to making things in the Mystic forge because that does have RNG to it. But the RNG of getting mats can also be frustrating.
    I was actually referring to the Mystic Forge.

    Thanks again for all the responses (including from Fencers) and all the best

  20. #80
    Titan draykorinee's Avatar
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    So much RNG in actually getting to craft stuff, then the mystic forge..RNG central imo, proffesions are still bloated, I really thought they we're going to make life easier, I found it far more taxing than others. I had to skip the bovine fencers thing, seemed way too pedantic.

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