July 23rd patch - Cutthroat Politics

[zito]

To you, certainly. To Mel, when the scoreboard pops up, it tells who won. Different perspectives.

The game is literally telling the last person alive they won. It's not perspectives on who won, it's ego boosting.

[Meledelion]

Here read this he also explains why you do it since it's so hard to comprehend.

[zito]

Here read this he also explains why you do it since it's so hard to comprehend.

It is intended to minimize time you have to spend playing the game.

Show off and laugh as you place higher than the guy that survived last.

it's ego boosting.

/10characters

[Meledelion]

Sigh, you still don't get it...

It's not about ego at all, it's getting out of a shit situation asap. I can easily adapt the line to "Show off and laugh as you "win" while afking", to which I can also say "EGO BOOST HURP DURP!"

As I said before, winning to me is getting the highest place on the scoreboard. To you it's someone calling you the winner.

[zito]

[QUOTE=Meledelion;21868632]Sigh, you still don't get it...

It's not about ego at all, it's getting out of a shit situation asap.

Shit situations can easily be avoided, just because you choose to stand and fight in the most populated camp at the start doesn't mean it's bad design, it means you are putting yourself in a bad situation.

As I said before, winning to me is getting the highest place on the scoreboard. To you it's someone calling you the winner.

You would have a point if

A) scoreboards weren't a epeen thing in this game
B) If the game did not actually tell you, that you are the winner by surviving over getting a higher score. Doesn't matter if to you a high score = a win because actually winning means you are the last one standing.

Which I have gotten many times (I play the heck out of this thing) by not standing in the suicide camp and I also got the high score, I usually get around 30 points from surviving rather then going on a killing spree and instant 50 points for winning. So you can win and get a high score. You are just putting yourself in situations where that is not possible.

[Meledelion]

Shit situations can easily be avoided, just because you choose to stand and fight in the most populated camp at the start doesn't mean it's bad design, it means you are putting yourself in a bad situation.

You would have a point if

A) scoreboards weren't a epeen thing in this game
B) If the game did not actually tell you, that you are the winner by surviving over getting a higher score. Doesn't matter if to you a high score = a win because actually winning means you are the last one standing.

Which I have gotten many times (I play the heck out of this thing) by not standing in the suicide camp and I also got the high score, I usually get around 30 points from surviving rather then going on a killing spree and instant 50 points for winning. So you can win and get a high score. You are just putting yourself in situations where that is not possible.

Shit situation = that stupid mini-game, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit apparently...
To make it painfully obvious: "Minimise the time spent playing the game" => "Get out of the shit situation"

A) Everything is E-peen, what do you get from surviving?

either way everyone gets the same reward. I've seen no difference between a first place chest and a non first place chest besides like 2 more silver and more karma.

B) The game tells you, "you're the winner" yet the game also has a scoreboard which doesn't represent that.

Please don't try and "teach" me how to play the game since I'm playing for an entirely different goal than you. Your 50points by winning are offset for gaining an instant 30 points at the start when you die. As I said, your tactic is valid but I highly doubt you'll break 100+ games with it though.

The game is designed poorly:
1. Their mechanic to discourage camping doesn't work (which you use to your advantage)
2. You can glitch to get a head start over everyone else as seen here
3. Playing the objective isn't the best way of getting achievements/top score
4. Spawns aren't equal (pistol/camo/...)
5. RNG greatly impacts success.

[Arlee]

Alternatively I could just keep winning AND getting the high score. That's a fun option, too.

Blasphemy you can't do both

I am actually really enjoying the arena in this patch. Idk if I have just been lucky on the match-ups but everyone seems to be participating and I have had some really fun fights with people. Also last night it seemed like people are starting to get the hang of things and developing some strategies on it. As always though I do wish you could queue with friends, we would have a hilarious time in there. Oh also launching people off the platforms is really entertaining

[zito]

B) The game tells you, "you're the winner" yet the game also has a scoreboard which doesn't represent that.

The scoreboard has always been an epeen meter, an ego booster. This is the same for Spvp. It has no relation to actually winning. This is the 4th time I've stated this. It does not translate to winning in anyway, you may think it does but it doesn't and the correct term is ego boosting that's all it is, your personal definition of winning doesn't apply when a game is telling you you won for not beating the high score but for you when are the last one standing.

Shit situation = that stupid mini-game, reading comprehension isn't your strong suit apparently...

Plugging in your own situations you purposely put yourself in doesn't make it a bad mini game. Reading comprehension...

Please don't try and "teach" me how to play the game since I'm playing for an entirely different goal than you.

No your goal is to win, you should of said from the start your goal is to boost your epeen via the high score. If you want to win, you be the last one standing. You can't just plug in your own rules and go by that to win, when it is clearly not the way to win.

1. Their mechanic to discourage camping doesn't work (which you use to your advantage)

It does work because you are more likely to die, which is the point.

2. You can glitch to get a head start over everyone else as seen here

There are bugs for every game, you know it's not intended. Don't grasp for bones.

3. Playing the objective isn't the best way of getting achievements/top score

Top score is for epeen, so there will always be a "maximize method" like you always say. You also don't have to use the maximize method to get the achievement.

4. Spawns aren't equal (pistol/camo/...)

No it's randomized so certain positions don't gain an advantage over others all the time. At least with randomized that one spot won't always be the best but some times it will. That's the best way to counter spawning advantage.

5. RNG greatly impacts success.

If any of the RNG items you get from scavenging were greatly stronger then the other you would have a point.

[Meledelion]

The scoreboard has always been an epeen meter, an ego booster. This is the same for Spvp. It has no relation to actually winning. This is the 4th time I've stated this. It does not translate to winning in anyway, you may think it does but it doesn't and the correct term is ego boosting that's all it is, your personal definition of winning doesn't apply when a game is telling you you won for not beating the high score but for you when are the last one standing.

Plugging in your own situations you purposely put yourself in doesn't make it a bad mini game. Reading comprehension...

No your goal is to win, you should of said from the start your goal is to boost your epeen via the high score. If you want to win, you be the last one standing. You can't just plug in your own rules and go by that to win, when it is clearly not the way to win.

It does work because you are more likely to die, which is the point.

There are bugs for every game, you know it's not intended. Don't grasp for bones.

Top score is for epeen, so there will always be a "maximize method" like you always say. You also don't have to use the maximize method to get the achievement.

No it's randomized so certain positions don't gain an advantage over others all the time. At least with randomized that one spot won't always be the best but some times it will. That's the best way to counter spawning advantage.

If any of the RNG items you get from scavenging were greatly stronger then the other you would have a point.

And what do you get aside from your name being yelled? The same as scoring the highest on the scoreboard => E-peen. You said yourself that rewards are the same...

You don't get it do you? The shit situation is that you're playing the game, you seem to make it out as playing the game poorly. Again we disagree on what a shit situation is, for me it is being in a game-mode that is obviously broken/unbalanced.

I'm complaining about being in a rowing boat at sea and you reply "if you don't throw one of your oars away it's not too bad since you can make it to the shore". To make it very clear: I DON'T GIVE A FLYING SHIT ABOUT HAVING MY OARS, I DON'T WANT TO BE IN A FRIGIN ROW BOAT TO BEGIN WITH! I WANT TO BE IN A MOTORBOAT.

Sigh, again. I DO NOT CARE ABOUT E-PEEN, I WANT TO BE OUT OF THE FRIGIN ROWING BOAT ASAP AND THE WAY TO DO THAT IS BY JUMPING OUT OF THE BOAT AND IGNORING THE IDENTIFYING FACTOR (in case you don't get it dieing instead of surviving) OF ROWING!
Also your note about E-peen has been brought up 4times and I've given a counter-argument 4times. Either A) come up with another argument or B) stop repeating yourself since I'll simply have to resort to repeating myself, which doesn't get us anywhere.

1. Everyone who wants to "survive" uses the tactic you described, clearly that means that a-net's method of discouraging camping doesn't work.

2. And there shouldn't be, do you see how far ahead I am in that picture, is this potentially game-breaking? Did I find out about it the first time I entered the game? Should this have been spotted during testing?
=> yes to all accounts. I can accept minor bugs like weapons not showing or animations acting weird, but this is a very big oversight.

An easy fix: use gates/cages like everywhere else in the game...

3. You consider it E-peen, I consider it the best way of getting out of the frigin boat. I don't care about being nr1 at all. I want as much points so I can move on and do something else ASAP and yes ASAP means I use the most optimal way of scoring high points, that's just common sense.

To draw an analogy with FPS games. Some people consider W/L the determining factor of skill, others prefer k/d and others look at caps+defends/death and others only care about their score. For you having a high W/L is considered "winning" to me I don't care if I win or lose as long as I can keep up a 5+KD I consider myself doing good, I don't care about winning nor about scoring a lot of points, I only care about my k/d (I won't expand on why since that's quite off-topic). Do I think that people who go for the win/points/caps are worse players than me, ofcourse not. Do I wish that people who actually play for the win should be rewarded most, yell yeah.

Another analogy with cars. I'm only concerned with getting the fastest lap. I don't care about finishing first or overtaking as many people as possible. My only goal is to drive for that one ultimate lap out of 50 in a race. You can brag about being first or having the fastest lap or having overtaken most people and all of that comes down to ego.

You bringing up e-peen/"winning" is the same as someone bringing up w/l or finishing first, I quite frankly don't care. I measure "success" in an entirely different way (similarly in I look at efficiency rather than effectiveness) so

4. Why do you need to randomise it? Make everyone spawn on the exact same location (the bonfire) inside eachother or in a circle with gates surround everyone and put certain items at specific locations like winter fight/dragon bash arena/UT/Halo/... Tadaa I just balanced the game without using RNG, I'm a genius since I fixed 2 majorly broken things right off the bat and at the same time. (I'm being sarcastic, I'm far from a genius as you've probably noticed )

5. Pistol is undodgeable 3 (one-shot)kills guaranteed with a shorter activation time than arrows. Having 3arrows>1arrow, supply trap>alarm trap>drop all shit and make people lose time by picking it up again trap. Stealth is somewhat handy but I'm not that fussed. Now top it all off with the fact that you can scavenge and get nothing.
These (rng) things greatly impact game-play.
_____________________________________________________________________________________

I'll again clearly state my views.
If a game's "winning objective" is to survive then surviving should make you top of the leader-boards 90% of the time. I'm not sure if you're familiar with the 'One in the chamber' game mode, which does this perfectly. You get 1bullet, kill someone you get another bullet (if you always shoot people you'll have 1bullet all the time unless you ofc miss but if you manage to knife your total will be 2bullets), you have 3lives. Each time someone runs out of lives everyone else gets X-points, this helps the last man standing stay up in ranks (and people who die fast at the bottom) but slayers can still win if they're really good.

It's not a complete overhaul to make the game actually reward the person who plays "the proper way".

[Meledelion]

TL;DR: Mel has some strange ideas about "winning".

Your theory very strongly suggests that you'd be an awful team player and also like to create your own victory conditions when those of the game aren't to your liking or are difficult to achieve.

I do agree about all the RNG stuff, though!

To me winning can only be done if RNG takes no part in it at all. An example would be the tour de france, I don't care who wins the "normal" races the ones I consider to be most noteworthy are the solo time-runs or team-time runs since RNG isn't as much of a factor (other people breaking infront of you, someone bumping against you,...). That same stuff can be brought along to nearly all other "competitions" like motor racing, fps games,... You can say "skill is determined about how you deal with RNG" but I personally think that this isn't the case. No matter how good you are at driving a car if someone accidentally bumps into you and bends a fender making your wheels drag/burst you can't recover.

I'm a great team player IF RNG has a very minor part in determining success. In tPvP when I played with a team, I'd be decapping like mad + sniping (played thief) as much as possible all though I'd get more points/kills/... If I'd be in team fights and "tagged" people. When yoloQing I don't care at all about winning, I'm there to get my daily done and that's it. Winning is of no factor to me so I couldn't care less. The reason for this is that even before the game starts it's all down to RNG which makes me go /care. Same for SSS, RNG is a big part of your success so I /care about the "win".

Basically it comes down to this: my hate of RNG is so strong that if I don't look for another way to "reward" myself I wouldn't do anything at all since RNG is a big part of nearly all things. I don't say that everyone has to follow my thinking pattern (I'd advise against it since it's sometimes borderline masochistic) or that my POV is the "correct one", instead I try to clarify what I dislike and why and then how I'd (try to) fix it.

A funny anecdote was regarding me and some friends going karting. Sadly due to regulations they had to change the motors from gasoline to electricity (to reduce sound/polution/god knows what other stupid rules). Sadly our group was unlucky in that the group before us took up 25% of the karts and we needed 100%. After the other group finished it was clear that 25% of the carts would have less battery power than everyone else (while others were driving, the ones not in use were being charged) sadly me and another friend (bob) got unlucky and were in the used karts. Bob had so little energy that he had no chance in hell to keep up (we were going 3* as fast) I was more fortunate but sadly my motor also didn't go as fast as others, knowing this I could go for the "win", which was impossible since at every straight line everyone would just zoom off leaving me disappointed (I'm very competitive) or I could make it fun for myself and try to set as fast of a lap time as possible. The analogy from the boat above is applicable to Bob, he just wanted the stupid race to be over with.

TLDR: I hate RNG, the moment RNG factors in (significantly) I go /caremode and set my own objectives. And it annoys me greatly that people don't recognise that RNG is a determining factor or think there's no way of doing the same thing without RNG when it should be quite obvious both statements are wrong.

[zito]

snip

No, Like I said before you can't make your own rules and expect Anet to follow them. The scoreboard in this game has never been related to actual winning.

Just because you think it should doesn't mean it is, winning is being the last one to survive. Epeen is for the scoreboard. You can't imply that the scoreboard should reflect the winner because it has never done that ever.

You can't add your own shit and opinions and make your own definition when the rules and game clearly state otherwise. There is no arguing this fact.

Once again winning = surviving, topping the score board = gloating you killed people

You by definition don't want to win you want to top the score board. That's what you should of started with, not with "I want to win" because winning means surviving, It's the first rule that pops up on your screen.

[Arlee]

Ok, you guys clearly aren't getting anywhere with this debate let's just drop it now and discuss other things please

[Drofdel]

The most annoying part about the Southsun Survival mini-game is that I find myself dying more to dead players than anything else in the game, but then again, I play aggressively early on so I can rack up points for the achievement. I would actually try harder to be the last one standing if it weren't so easy to rack up kills early on and then collect revenge orbs when I inevitably die to traps or karkas that mist walkers spawn.

[Meledelion]

The most annoying part about the Southsun Survival mini-game is that I find myself dying more to dead players than anything else in the game, but then again, I play aggressively early on so I can rack up points for the achievement. I would actually try harder to be the last one standing if it weren't so easy to rack up kills early on and then collect revenge orbs when I inevitably die to traps or karkas that mist walkers spawn.

Yes but then you're not "winning" /caremode.

[zito]

The most annoying part about the Southsun Survival mini-game is that I find myself dying more to dead players than anything else in the game, but then again, I play aggressively early on so I can rack up points for the achievement. I would actually try harder to be the last one standing if it weren't so easy to rack up kills early on and then collect revenge orbs when I inevitably die to traps or karkas that mist walkers spawn.

Key to avoiding revenge death is not to stand out in common area's where battles take place, this is where ghosts can get revenge orbs and trap you. Try and stay off center and there is such a thing as killing too many people... they will gang up on you.

However if you are points farming, revenge killing at the start is probably the easiest way.

[Drofdel]

Meh, the problem here is the dumb "Get points" achievement. Encourages people to just farm instead of really playing.

Exactly. The extra chest at the end isn't exactly worth all the effort it took to win the game. Sure, you get 50 points for winning, but it's a more difficult 50 than just farming kills at the beginning and collecting revenge orbs. Personally, I think players should get points for being alive every so often after the grace period, that way they're actually being rewarded for surviving rather than farming kills and dying.

[Meledelion]

Personally, I think players should get points for being alive every so often after the grace period, that way they're actually being rewarded for surviving rather than farming kills and dying.

You want to make the game actually reward playing the objective, that's totally unacceptable!

[zito]

Exactly. The extra chest at the end isn't exactly worth all the effort it took to win the game. Sure, you get 50 points for winning, but it's a more difficult 50 than just farming kills at the beginning and collecting revenge orbs. Personally, I think players should get points for being alive every so often after the grace period, that way they're actually being rewarded for surviving rather than farming kills and dying.

It's not like you need the 2500 achievement for the meta and it's only worth 2 achievement points.

The scoreboard/points is hardly mandatory or rewarding. Hence why it's not the main objective. I also haven't gotten a rose outside the splendid chest. All 3 I've gotten were from splendid chest. Not sure if the other chest has a lower drop rate or not for it.

[Durzlla]

High score has no relation to winning. High score refers to obtaining the most objectives set in the mini game, from killing people to surviving.

You want to win? Survive. You win. Don't stick around the obvious place where orbs will spawn and ghosts will crowd around. Pick up 9 rations and start hoofin it to the other side of the island where there are no orbs and nobody will be able to catch up to you then you just out hunger the rest. If you don't kill anyone you are less likely to be haunted since the whole mechanic is about revenge.

I know whenever i get killed (in my pointless point gaining matches) i will normally just drop a karka or 5 on the group that ganged up on me lol.

The way i always win though is i ignore the pit O Death at the beginning and just pick up like 6-9 rations (everyone else can starve) and i run over to the karka nest where i hide in the safety of my karka friends!

[Durzlla]

It's not like you need the 2500 achievement for the meta and it's only worth 2 achievement points.

The scoreboard/points is hardly mandatory or rewarding. Hence why it's not the main objective. I also haven't gotten a rose outside the splendid chest. All 3 I've gotten were from splendid chest. Not sure if the other chest has a lower drop rate or not for it.

The other Chests have either a ridiculously low chance or no chance at all to get the rose, i've gotten the rose twice now out of the 6 wins i've gotten.