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  1. #641
    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    Takes a majority to vote kick you, so likely the healer thought you were taking too much damage and didn't say anything, otherwise if he/she was OK with it they would have spoken up. I tell the grp I'm ok with it when healing because I could care less what the tank is wearing as a heals unless the tank is really just trolling with his bad tanking, and because my raid gear carries everything.

    Tanks in dps specs pisses me off though, even in low level dungeons. Just pay the gold for dual spec or queue in the correct spec, you do more damage in tanking specs anyway and you'll actually learn how to tank instead of just cheesing it with your crappy ret/whatever spec. It's the principle of the thing...
    I was watching her mana the entire time and she did not have to drink once. After killing the second boss(End of time) the DPS probably saw that I was ahead of him on DPS and asked me to put my tanking gear on. At that point I asked the healer if she had had any difficulties healing me at any point and she said no, but she also asked me to put my tanking gear on. I told them I wasn't going to get my tanking gear from the bank because my bags were full and they kicked me.

    Maybe she was afraid we'd wipe on the next boss or something, I don't know. Not everyone need to vote for the kick to go through, though. Only three votes are required in a 5man, two yes votes plus the vote from the player who started the votekick. I've seen plenty of kicks go through without my help.

    They were all from the same guild, so I knew the healer wasn't going to side with me anyway. I just hoped they wouldn't go as far as kicking me. I probably sounded like a jerk when I refused to put my tanking gear on. I honestly don't remember. It was the first time I was kicked in a long time too, and I had done those dungeons as tank in DPS gear many times before.
    Last edited by El_Diabl0; 2013-07-24 at 10:03 PM.

  2. #642
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    That's what happens when stupid and wrong ideas about game design collide with actual customer response.

    Still surprised they haven't fired anyone over it.
    I'm sure this is going to come across as p3wpy, but it's not intended to be; I'm just genuinely curious:

    What specific elements of heroics in 4.0 evidenced "stupid and wrong game design"?

    I ask because 4.0 might've been the most fun I've had in the game. I've only played since 2.3, so my experience is somewhat limited, but I really enjoyed instances when Cata dropped.

  3. #643
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Still surprised they haven't fired anyone over it.
    The dissonance between what actually happens and what they say is always rather odd to me.
    Cough, windwalker healing in raids

    Quote Originally Posted by Alconds View Post
    That got me too, I was happy when he said there would be no nerfs because I really enjoyed the content.
    Honestly I'm ambivalent about it, because I was on a dead realm for a shit guild. So I had to pug it, and aside from the first week or two where they were actually pretty good, it was hellish afterwards trying to pug it.

    I more or less missed it when the going was good.

  4. #644
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    What specific elements of heroics in 4.0 evidenced "stupid and wrong game design"?
    It was a gross misreading of the overall preferences and capabilities of their customer base. Of course there were individuals who liked it; the error was in bad marketing, assuming individuals like yourself were more typical than you actually are.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  5. #645
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    What specific elements of heroics in 4.0 evidenced "stupid and wrong game design"?
    I posted many of them earlier. They were the ones that either enabled a single player to derail an entire fight or required an unreasonable level of cooperation between 5 complete strangers. Note that this list isn't by any means complete, but hopefully you get the picture:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    • Corborus's crystals had to be AoEed before they could activate or you could be they would kill someone.
    • If you stood in shadows while fighting Slabhide you were impaled and killed. If you stood in the lava pools it was death too.
    • Tank had to face Ozruk away from the group. Ranged DPS had to reflect a DoT onto themselves to avoid paralyzation. Melee DPS had to run out of his AoE smash attack.
    • If you didn't dodge Azil's boulders and keep a gravity well between you and the adds you would pretty much fail.
    • If players didn't dodge Umbriss's blitz and ground siege they died.
    • Throngus had 3 different mechanics that the tank had to be aware of. The entire group had to stay out of his lava pools and behind his shield while he was spewing fire.
    • Dragha's minion had to be DPSed down and kited because if it reached its target it blew up and killed anyone in the area. His dragon, Valiona, was also a raid boss and featured the same flame mechanic as in the raid.
    • Erudax's minions had to be slowed and killed before they reached the eggs or they would heal him and spawn a bunch of fireball-spewing whelps. He also periodically cast a shadow gale that killed anyone who wasn't standing in its eye.
    • If Romogg's chains weren't DPSed down in time it was a wipe.
    • Three players had to manage the beams on Corla
    • The tank had to keep Steelbender in the fire or he wasn't going to go down.
    • Beauty's children had to be CCed, except for Runty, who had to remain completely untouched. This was hard to manage because she would periodically fear everyone so if you didn't have a shaman who knew how to use their anti-fear totem you were hosed.
    • If Obsidius's twilight corruption wasn't dispelled it was pretty much a wipe.

    Need I go on? Mechanics that kill players who aren't paying attention are OK as long as the other players can power through. However, when the fight is tuned in a way that every single player is needed you're basically punishing those players who are paying attention because someone in their group happens to lack skill and/or experience. No wonder there's so much hostility towards "bad" players. MoP went the other extreme. Mechanics don't kill people, and even if someone does manage to get themselves killed it's OK because each "Heroic" dungeon can practically be soloed.

  6. #646
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I posted many of them earlier. They were the ones that either enabled a single player to derail an entire fight or required an unreasonable level of cooperation between 5 complete strangers. Note that this list isn't by any means complete, but hopefully you get the picture:
    Most of those aren't really that far out there. I can get toning down stuff like "dispel this or wipe", but "point cleaving boss away from everyone else" is a pretty low tier mechanic.

  7. #647
    Cata Heroics were glorious! Remember when you could actually wipe in LFD? God forbid you had to type out a few sentences to explain how to do the fight to your teammates.

    Now we get MoP "Heroics" where you can mindlessly solo as a tank.

  8. #648
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    I'm sure this is going to come across as p3wpy, but it's not intended to be; I'm just genuinely curious:

    What specific elements of heroics in 4.0 evidenced "stupid and wrong game design"?

    I ask because 4.0 might've been the most fun I've had in the game. I've only played since 2.3, so my experience is somewhat limited, but I really enjoyed instances when Cata dropped.
    There was a massive shift between (vanilla)/TBC to Wotlk, and there seemed to have been a massive uproar about diffculty during wotlk. Now the difficulty change from wotlk to cata reassembled more the way how tbc dungeons were. Added to that, there was the merge of 10 and 25 mans in difficulty while during vanilla and tbc those were split. So they had a major swing in a direction without giving anything to the *majority* of their customers after they made everything easy.

    I'm not sure what side Osmeric takes (tell me when I'm wrong), but I guess he is more of the opinion that the shift to hard was bad. While I would be of the opinion, that giving rewards way higher than the level of difficulty was wrong

    I would have fired GC myself too tho!

  9. #649
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I posted many of them earlier. They were the ones that either enabled a single player to derail an entire fight or required an unreasonable level of cooperation between 5 complete strangers.
    some of those are just a simple "dont stand in stupids"
    If a player cant manage that they maybe kinda deserved to die...........
    We have faced trials and danger, threats to our world and our way of life. And yet, we persevere. We are the Horde. We will not let anything break our spirits!"

  10. #650
    Someone should tell Ghostcrawler on twitter that by trying to make every gear upgrade meaningful, they're making content from previous patches not worth running and it limits the amount of relevant content that's available to players. ilevel inflation is bad for business! Blizzard's businesses.

  11. #651
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    Most of those aren't really that far out there. I can get toning down stuff like "dispel this or wipe", but "point cleaving boss away from everyone else" is a pretty low tier mechanic.
    It's still really frustrating to attempt heal through when 90% of the existing tanks in LFD have never dealt with it before. First you have to spend 10 minutes convincing your tank that he's doing it wrong. If he hasn't rage quit by then he then spends another 15 minutes trying to master it. If he still hasn't mastered it he'll probably rage quit and then it's back in the queue for another 20 minutes waiting on a new tank. Once the tank gets it right remember that this is combined with the other mechanic where you have to convince everyone to DoT Ozruk at the exact moment in order to get it reflected onto you so it'll break the paralyzation. Even if all the DPS are doing it correctly you have to remind the good healers to go against their conditioned response of dispelling debuffs and to wait until after the paralyzation. This is not a reasonable expectation of pugs. In my opinion, counter-intuitive mechanics like that should be reserved for raids.

  12. #652
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    This is not a reasonable expectation of pugs. In my opinion, counter-intuitive mechanics like that should be reserved for raids.
    The details of the paralyzation mechanic, possibly even if I disagree with you about how complex it is.

    The other half that the wall of text pointed out regarding ozruk, I think is silly. "Melee has to run out of the smash"

  13. #653
    Quote Originally Posted by Dreknar20 View Post
    some of those are just a simple "dont stand in stupids"
    But most weren't. Most were more like Corla's beams, which required you to stand in them until you hit about 80 stacks, at which point you had to move out until the stacks dropped off. Then it was rinse and repeat. In the meantime you also had to interrupt Dark Command and DPS Corla down before the healer went OOM. That's way beyond "don't stand in stupids."

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    The other half that the wall of text pointed out regarding ozruk, I think is silly. "Melee has to run out of the smash"
    Except that prior to patch 4.0.6 you couldn't even see the shatter's range. Not only did you have to run out of it, but you didn't even know where it was hitting!

  14. #654
    Deleted
    Since you just linked that response I am going to argue against you or support you.
    Especially since any argument you give is just SHIT.
    All of the fails are utter bad play and even most of those are non issues. This game wasn't a console game when I bought it and even if it would have been, that wouldn't have excused for being utter shit at playing something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Each dungeon featured fights that could be derailed by any one player not doing their job. Some examples of wipe-inducing mechanics:
    • Corborus's crystals had to be AoEed before they could activate or you could be they would kill someone.
    • If you stood in shadows while fighting Slabhide you were impaled and killed. If you stood in the lava pools it was death too.
    • Tank had to face Ozruk away from the group. Ranged DPS had to reflect a DoT onto themselves to avoid paralyzation. Melee DPS had to run out of his AoE smash attack.
    • If you didn't dodge Azil's boulders and keep a gravity well between you and the adds you would pretty much fail.
    • If players didn't dodge Umbriss's blitz and ground siege they died.
    • Throngus had 3 different mechanics that the tank had to be aware of. The entire group had to stay out of his lava pools and behind his shield while he was spewing fire.
    • Dragha's minion had to be DPSed down and kited because if it reached its target it blew up and killed anyone in the area. His dragon, Valiona, was also a raid boss and featured the same flame mechanic as in the raid.
    • Erudax's minions had to be slowed and killed before they reached the eggs or they would heal him and spawn a bunch of fireball-spewing whelps. He also periodically cast a shadow gale that killed anyone who wasn't standing in its eye.
    • If Romogg's chains weren't DPSed down in time it was a wipe.
    • Three players had to manage the beams on Corla
    • The tank had to keep Steelbender in the fire or he wasn't going to go down.
    • Beauty's children had to be CCed, except for Runty, who had to remain completely untouched. This was hard to manage because she would periodically fear everyone so if you didn't have a shaman who knew how to use their anti-fear totem you were hosed.
    • If Obsidius's twilight corruption wasn't dispelled it was pretty much a wipe.
    • Died in one sweep, takes a single wipe to learn
    • That's what DO NOT STAND IN are good for (deserved death, and actually did not matter and taught how to play)
    • Hard stuff to tank stuff away from the rest and move (takes 3 pulls to learn or not able to play this game)
    • Seriously? Do not stand in fire?
    • 2 seconds to react was NOT hard, I taught pugs to do it pre pull
    • Stand behind boss while he spouts out stuff, run away as a tank when he is doing insane damage. ...
    • Hard stuff running around
    • Not hard (but the group on my first kill in full greens had issues..)
    • Agree'd! Gimmick which shouldn't even be in raids. Boring and bland
    • Wrong, you kite him into the fire to reset stacks
    • Recasting a CC was hard? And killling them was possible too
    • Oh noes!
    Last edited by mmoc31552a2210; 2013-07-24 at 10:23 PM.

  15. #655
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post


    Except that prior to patch 4.0.6 you couldn't even see the shatter's range. Not only did you have to run out of it, but you didn't even know where it was hitting!
    Then just keep running to be safe

    Even if a void zone may be larger than you expect it to be, that doesn't mean the proper response is going "fuck it, I'll stand in the middle of it anyways".

  16. #656
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    The details of the paralyzation mechanic, possibly even if I disagree with you about how complex it is.
    I'm not making this up. If you go to Wowwiki's Ozruk page you'll find this right now:
    Heroic: Ranged should cast their weakest DOT on Ozruk when Elementium Bulwark is up, to DOT themselves and break Paralyze. Hunters have no real way to avoid Paralyze (Serpent Sting is not reflected). (Tank/melee DPS will gain a DOT from Ozruk through normal melee.)
    If you don't remember how complex it is then you didn't range DPS, heal, and/or PUG very much.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    Then just keep running to be safe

    Even if a void zone may be larger than you expect it to be, that doesn't mean the proper response is going "fuck it, I'll stand in the middle of it anyways".
    Except when you're already having trouble beating the DPS check, running an extra 3 or 4 seconds doesn't seem like that great an idea.

  17. #657
    If you don't know what you are talking about, do not open a thread like this one OP... get your shit together.

  18. #658
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I'm not making this up. If you go to Wowwiki's Ozruk page you'll find this right now:

    If you don't remember how complex it is then you didn't range DPS, heal, and/or PUG very much.

    - - - Updated - - -


    Except when you're already having trouble beating the DPS check, running an extra 3 or 4 seconds doesn't seem like that great an idea.
    Throwing up a dot at a specific time is not complex to me.

    But I was even brushing that to the side, because the wall of text pointed out even easier mechanics, such as avoiding the shadows on slabhide, or the melees job during Ozruk.

  19. #659
    Quote Originally Posted by Xezz View Post
    (takes 3 pulls to learn or not able to play this game)
    That's exactly the mentality that costs subs. Millions of people took more than three pulls to learn and decided to find better uses for their time. You can enjoy your hardcore game in your little corner of the internet with your handful of hardcore friends, but I don't think Blizzard's investors are going to be very happy about that.

  20. #660
    Deleted
    Oh seriously do stop your excuses.
    He shouts some shit, tank moves, he shouts some other shit, all melee moves

    It was NOT hard and a few days later shitty wow addons catched up and notified you what the fuck was happening (MAJOR failure on blizz side)

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