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  1. #501
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    What makes you think, that the forsaken don't have access to the scourge plague AND their own plague? The scourge plague isn't that difficult to do? People had to eat infected crops to get turned to undeads, while the forsake plague is much more advanced and kills instantly and can be used via catapults. If anything they mastered the plague alltogether more than the scourge even. Just remember wrathgate didn't kill the forsaken the alliance AND horde with the plague? The lich king retreated, too.

    No one here claimed a bunch of undead would smuggle the scourge version of the plague into the human realms. In WC3 human cultists did it. The forsaken will use spys too, spys usually cannot be recognized by the enemy. They can be human, gnome, dwarven anything....they can be mercaneries paid for this mission or just mind controlled, or they just want to be immortal and turned too. Or they are elven vampires in disguise pretending to be high elves.(icc wing)




    Game mechanics aside, what do you think is potentially more dangerous? Conservative weapons and military might or a very dangerous bio weapon? The plague is more potent than anything we have on the real world. We don't have a bio weapon that mass kills people and mass turns them to undead. And all this in a world of azeroth with very limited ways to deal with it. Jaina and the Kirin Tor were unable to do a single thing in wc3 either, why they would save the day out of the sudden? if anything its to late when they react and EK is turned. I found no magics in azeroth that will reverse undead condition.

    Actually, its like the forsaken using nukes while the alliance doesn't have a single one. Anyone attacking the forsaken certainly is paying a high price. Also people have bad memory here and forget that Sylvanas was once the finest elven general of silvermoon. She know tactics and isn't easy to kill. Arthas had a much bigger army, the scourge behind him and still had trouble to kill her until the final battle. Later when she was turned she almost killed him, cause she trapped him. When it comes to wow, she is pretending to be weak, those underestimated usually prevail.



    I said it many times, she isn't afraid of a single thing, she wasn't even afraid to commit suicide, she knows death all too well. She dealed with Arthas many times and he was afraid when he got trapped by her in frozen throne and only kel thuzad managed to save his sorry ass.

    Furthermore she is pretending to be weak to buy more time for her plague research. She is also pretending she has no plague at all, if you ever played catas forsaken quests in silverspine and listened to the speech of both Garrosh and Sylvanas. There might be something in Gilneas, too when you listen to her while hidden in a church as worgen.

    We will see what will happen with sylvanas, sad that the lore in wow is so stale and slow developing compared to the rts games. In the end metzen can make her all powerful like Kerrigan and the lichking or weak and forgotten. Just comes down of his writing. The potential to be extremely dangerous is there, on multiple point of views not just cause of the plague, but it plays a big factor, she knows why she puts so much time into this.
    Show me an instance of the Forsaken using a scourge plague that actually works. (Note, the actually works part is important) or some lore that positively indicates they have it. If there isn't such an example, then you're just speculating they MIGHT have it. You can say 'spies will do it' I can say 'SI 7 will catch the spies.'

    Yes, the plague is very dangerous. So are the Alliance gunshps. So are dwarven siege tanks. Alliance can bomb Forsaken plague tanks, kill forsaken apothecaries trying to spray it around, it's not like there's nothing they can do to counter it.

    You're just speculating that she's 'pretending' to be weak, the book seemed pretty convincing to me, in the way she tried to appeal to Lor'themar to back her up on opposing Garrosh's plan. You're pulling this 'she's pretending to be weak' thing out of your ass unless you can provide a lore quote that suggests she was faking it. The Forsaken are strong, but they're not as strong as Stormwind and Ironforge combined, let alone the entire Alliance. They have a powerful weapon in the plague, but it's not uncounterable, and sneaking enough of it into IF to destroy the city from within is going to require more than a few hired mercs.

    She wasn't afraid to commit suicide...but then she did and went to hell essentially, and she describes her Forsaken as 'no longer being arrows in her quiver, but a bulwark against the infinte' or something like that in her short story. She committed suicide once but didn't go to the happy place she expected.

  2. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Show me an instance of the Forsaken using a scourge plague that actually works. (Note, the actually works part is important) or some lore that positively indicates they have it. If there isn't such an example, then you're just speculating they MIGHT have it. You can say 'spies will do it' I can say 'SI 7 will catch the spies.'
    The Forsaken were developing their own New Plague so that it would kill Scourge and raise undead free from the LK's control. They never got the second part to work, so they settled on the kill-everything function (for now).

    They are not above using original Plague if it suits their purposes. While they don't want new undead raised from using the original Plague to be controlled by the LK, Southern EK is quite a distance away from Northrend and his control would be weaker. Maybe weak enough for the Forsaken to liberate them. Even if the Forsaken aren't able to convert those new undead, using original Plague would still be advantageous for causing chaos within the Alliance populace.

  3. #503
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Forsaken were developing their own New Plague so that it would kill Scourge and raise undead free from the LK's control. They never got the second part to work, so they settled on the kill-everything function (for now).

    They are not above using original Plague if it suits their purposes. While they don't want new undead raised from using the original Plague to be controlled by the LK, Southern EK is quite a distance away from Northrend and his control would be weaker. Maybe weak enough for the Forsaken to liberate them. Even if the Forsaken aren't able to convert those new undead, using original Plague would still be advantageous for causing chaos within the Alliance populace.
    Still doesn't make smuggling it into IF or Stormwind a simple task. Could they do some damage? Yes, but I'm still not convinced the Forsaken could take IF, and getting to the tram to bypass IF's defenses would require them to go even further south. The scourge plague was able to work so well because they'd never encountered anything like it, I doubt Sylvanns could duplicate Mal'ganis' success.

  4. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Still doesn't make smuggling it into IF or Stormwind a simple task. Could they do some damage? Yes, but I'm still not convinced the Forsaken could take IF, and getting to the tram to bypass IF's defenses would require them to go even further south. The scourge plague was able to work so well because they'd never encountered anything like it, I doubt Sylvanns could duplicate Mal'ganis' success.
    It wouldn't really work that well against IF anyway. Original Plague only turned humans into Scourge. It would just make dwarves ill (maybe kill them) and maybe pass it to their human buddies.

    EDIT: I just remembered that only carion worms are immune to Plague. So it would still give an advantage against IF if enough of the dwarves were infected. They wouldn't turn completely undead, but a disease would spread like wildfire in the confined space if they didn't catch it early enough to quarantine the infected.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 06:05 PM.

  5. #505
    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post

    You're just speculating that she's 'pretending' to be weak, the book seemed pretty convincing to me, in the way she tried to appeal to Lor'themar to back her up on opposing Garrosh's plan. You're pulling this 'she's pretending to be weak' thing out of your ass unless you can provide a lore quote that suggests she was faking it.
    As a Alliance biased fanboy, defending your alliance no matter what, you did not even play as a worgen? how could you have missed that one?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIqEH4v_tMY

    If that isn't proove for Sylvanas playing mind games with her allies and pretend to be weak and do all they want, you ignore reality.

  6. #506
    Quote Originally Posted by Tyrannica View Post
    As a Alliance biased fanboy, defending your alliance no matter what, you did not even play as a worgen? how could you have missed that one?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIqEH4v_tMY

    If that isn't proove for Sylvanas playing mind games with her allies and pretend to be weak and do all they want, you ignore reality.
    I've done that quest. How do you make the leap from that quest to 'oh, Sylvannas must be PRETENDING to be nervous about Alliance retaliation in Tides of War?' The Worgen put her in a tight spot so she's desperate enough to disobey orders to win. That doesn't translate into 'she's powerful enough to take over all of EK.' All this video shows is that when push comes to shove, she'll do things her way rather than let Garrosh's orders risk a defeat.

    I don't think Sylvannas and the Forsaken are 'weak' but there's a wide gap between 'weak' and 'able to take over whole continent on their own.'
    Last edited by Florena; 2013-07-28 at 11:33 PM.

  7. #507
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    The Forsaken were developing their own New Plague so that it would kill Scourge and raise undead free from the LK's control. They never got the second part to work, so they settled on the kill-everything function (for now).

    They are not above using original Plague if it suits their purposes. While they don't want new undead raised from using the original Plague to be controlled by the LK, Southern EK is quite a distance away from Northrend and his control would be weaker. Maybe weak enough for the Forsaken to liberate them. Even if the Forsaken aren't able to convert those new undead, using original Plague would still be advantageous for causing chaos within the Alliance populace.
    I fail to see where in this quest it says they are using the original plague.
    The plague drums are the exact same color and style as all other forsaken new plague containers.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2013-07-28 at 11:29 PM.

  8. #508
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I fail to see where in this quest it says they are using the original plague.
    The plague drums are the exact same color and style as all other forsaken new plague containers.
    Yeah, the Forsaken plague is essentially just toxic goo that, in high concentrations, will kill you and reduce you to goo, and makes the land unlivable for the living. A far cry from the undead turning disease the scourge had.

  9. #509
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    I fail to see where in this quest it says they are using the original plague.
    The plague drums are the exact same color and style as all other forsaken new plague containers.
    That quest is where they use it. The previous quest is where they collect it.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Yeah, the Forsaken plague is essentially just toxic goo that, in high concentrations, will kill you and reduce you to goo, and makes the land unlivable for the living. A far cry from the undead turning disease the scourge had.
    Forsaken plague also kills undead, including themselves. They are immune to Scourge plague.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 11:40 PM.

  10. #510
    Even so, I'd say it'd be a lot harder to pull something like that off in the heart of alliance territory than it is on the Forsaken's backdoor in a land still largely held by scourge. That quest chain, at least on wowpedia seems to just sort of end there, do they actually end up using it?

  11. #511
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    That quest is where they use it. The previous quest is where they collect it.
    That's a rather broad logical jump.
    The New Plague was developed using samples from scourge infected creatures, it uses the toxins of diseased animals as a base.
    I think it's a bit presumptuous to then assume that in this quest a single apothecary without a lab is able to quickly manufacture the original scourge plague from a latent strain of the disease.

    Especially considering that what he wants is plague grass (i.e. the ability of the plague to corrupt a landscape) and points out that the samples from animals are less satisfying. I think it's pretty safe to say that he was simply using the diseased tissue samples to try and imbude a batch of new plague with a more devastating, hard to remove effect on the landscape.

    This is even more evidenced by the fact that the plague batches explode in a manner consistent with the New Plague, and weaken the humans at the farm the same way the Forsaken New Plague weakens the vrykul in Halgrind.

  12. #512
    The Insane apepi's Avatar
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    If they could get to Stormwind, kill them all and then raise them back, I think she could take EK. The dwarves would be the last to hold out but they would die out eventually.
    Time...line? Time isn't made out of lines. It is made out of circles. That is why clocks are round. ~ Caboose

  13. #513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Florena View Post
    Even so, I'd say it'd be a lot harder to pull something like that off in the heart of alliance territory than it is on the Forsaken's backdoor in a land still largely held by scourge. That quest chain, at least on wowpedia seems to just sort of end there, do they actually end up using it?
    I don't think it continues. To me, it seems like their plan is to push the Alliance out of the area while being able to claim plausible deniability. Make it look like their attempts to cleanse the area failed and the Plague re-surged on its own.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    That's a rather broad logical jump.
    The New Plague was developed using samples from scourge infected creatures, it uses the toxins of diseased animals as a base.
    I think it's a bit presumptuous to then assume that in this quest a single apothecary without a lab is able to quickly manufacture the original scourge plague from a latent strain of the disease.

    Especially considering that what he wants is plague grass (i.e. the ability of the plague to corrupt a landscape) and points out that the samples from animals are less satisfying. I think it's pretty safe to say that he was simply using the diseased tissue samples to try and imbude a batch of new plague with a more devastating, hard to remove effect on the landscape.

    This is even more evidenced by the fact that the plague batches explode in a manner consistent with the New Plague, and weaken the humans at the farm the same way the Forsaken New Plague weakens the vrykul in Halgrind.
    New Plague is deadly to Forsaken too, but they are immune to original Plague. He makes a direct comparison with the cauldrons used to spread original Plague in the area. They are trying to take the farm from the Alliance, "We're going to take that farm back from these humans." Contaminating it with New Plague will make the farm unusable just like Southshore.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-28 at 11:54 PM.

  14. #514
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    New Plague is deadly to Forsaken too, but they are immune to original Plague. He makes a direct comparison with the cauldrons used to spread original Plague in the area. They are trying to take the farm from the Alliance, "We're going to take that farm back from these humans." Contaminating it with New Plague will make the farm unusable just like Southshore.
    This is what I mean by silly jumps in logic.

    He does not make a direct comparison with the cauldrons used to spread the new plague in any relation at all to what the player is doing.
    He makes an offhand comment about how he liked the farm better when the scourge held it, because at least they had a plague cauldron.
    i.e. "At least the scourge used the farm to further their own control on the land instead of farming crops on it"

    I almost liked it better when the Scourge held the area. At least they had the sense to put a giant plague cauldron in the middle of the field.
    In no way does he ever imply that the plague he is working on is similar to the scourge plague.

    And the New Plague is not outright deadly to Forsaken. People need to stop thinking that the New Plague is a virus or disease, it isn't. It's not a real plague, it's a toxins that poisons things and if well saturated, or internally digested can kill a person, including a member of the forsaken.

    Southshore was rendered unusable because the area was hit with so much plague that half the town is literally pools of toxic goo that spawn living oozes.(Note that even with this level of saturation, the forsaken are still able to walk around the surrounding area fine, the apothecaries are just interested in how long it will take to clean the area of plague) Hitting an area with a small amount of New Plague does not make it unable to be used, thus, rather than ordering catapults out to bombard the area in plague, you plant a few drums.. enough to weaken the area's growth and weaken the humans hit.

    This is not the first time New plague has been used to adapt an area to forsaken control: Hillsbrad farms, Shadowfang keep.

  15. #515
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    This is what I mean by silly jumps in logic.

    He does not make a direct comparison with the cauldrons used to spread the new plague in any relation at all to what the player is doing.
    He makes an offhand comment about how he liked the farm better when the scourge held it, because at least they had a plague cauldron.

    In no way does he ever imply that the plague he is working on is similar to the scourge plague.
    Talks about how the field used to have a plague cauldron, then tells you to place plague drums around that field.

    Everywhere in game, Scourge plague is referred to as "plague". Forsaken stuff is referred to as "New Plague", "Blight", or "Forsaken Blight". The whole time he refers to it as plague. If it were new plague/blight, they would have made that distinction clear instead of calling it plague the whole time when harvesting it and deploying it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    i.e. "At least the scourge used the farm to further their own control on the land instead of farming crops on it"
    Now who's making jumps in logic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    And the New Plague is not outright deadly to Forsaken. People need to stop thinking that the New Plague is a virus or disease, it isn't. It's not a real plague, it's a toxins that poisons things and if well saturated, or internally digested can kill a person, including a member of the forsaken.
    New Plague isn't outright deadly to the living either at low concentrations. But they are planning on using amounts capable of killing the people on the farm, that would make it also deadly for the Forsaken if it was New Plague.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Southshore was rendered unusable because the area was hit with so much plague that half the town is literally pools of toxic goo that spawn living oozes.(Note that even with this level of saturation, the forsaken are still able to walk around the surrounding area fine, the apothecaries are just interested in how long it will take to clean the area of plague)
    THE SURROUNDING AREA, aka not in the death zone. They aren't having pool parties in the glowing ooze.

    Oh my. 250? This thing doesn't go past 250. How are you still standing? You should be a puddle of goo by now. Sylvanas will be most displeased with this information. There might be some things we can do to reduce the lethality levels of the area by a few decades, but that still leaves us out by about a hundred or so years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    Hitting an area with a small amount of New Plague does not make it unable to be used, thus, rather than ordering catapults out to bombard the area in plague, you plant a few drums.. enough to weaken the area's growth and weaken the humans hit.
    Hitting it with a small amount also makes Blight useless.

    At Gilneas, Forsaken Blightcallers say:
    -Watered down garbage. Doesn't even slow 'em down.
    -This is a war, right? We're supposed to be able to kill our enemies with our weapons, right?
    -This blight is useless.
    -What did they test this crap on? Murlocs?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    This is not the first time New plague has been used to adapt an area to forsaken control: Hillsbrad farms, Shadowfang keep.
    This is the only place where they've used this type of deployment.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-29 at 12:49 AM.

  16. #516
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Talks about how the field used to have a plague cauldron, then tells you to place plague drums around that field.

    Everywhere in game, Scourge plague is referred to as "plague". Forsaken stuff is referred to as "New Plague", "Blight", or "Forsaken Blight". The whole time he refers to it as plague. If it were new plague/blight, they would have made that distinction clear instead of calling it plague the whole time when harvesting it and deploying it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIqEH4v_tMY

    The New Plague is commonly called just "the plague"

    New Plague isn't outright deadly to the living either at low concentrations. But they are planning on using amounts capable of killing the people on the farm, that would make it also deadly for the Forsaken if it was New Plague.
    They use it to weaken the humans, not outright kill them.

    Hitting it with a small amount also makes Blight useless.

    At Gilneas, Forsaken Blightcallers say:
    -Watered down garbage. Doesn't even slow 'em down.
    -This is a war, right? We're supposed to be able to kill our enemies with our weapons, right?
    -This blight is useless.
    -What did they test this crap on? Murlocs?


    This is the only place where they've used this type of deployment.
    Right, very light blight dosage is useless, very high kills, the medium dose just weakens.
    This type of deployment isn't any different than catapult deployment, you just don't have a catapult on hand and are shooting for a medium amount of deployment.

    And if you're going to bother arguing deployment, then this is VERY CLEARLY the New Plague, since the scourge plague is spread via slow corruption and takes time to manifest effects, where this plague is deployed in an instant with immediate effects. The corruption spread by the scourge plague also tends to have a blight-colored influence, turning things muddy and dull red-orange, where the Forsaken blight is always green.

    I don't understand how you can possibly argue that it's the scourge plague, it clearly isn't, since the humans don't come back as scourge, and since, again, what you're suggesting is that a single apothecary with limited lab equipment was able to completely recreate the scourge plague from inferior trace samples of the disease and brew up enough of that plague to bomb a farm.

    Talks about how the field used to have a plague cauldron, then tells you to place plague drums around that field.
    Two people walk into their newly rented apartment.
    "Oh, there's nothing covering the windows"
    "Yeah that's weird, at least the original owner had blinds on them"
    "Let's go buy drapes"

    Drapes are now blinds by your logic.
    Last edited by Hitei; 2013-07-29 at 02:39 AM.

  17. #517
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aIqEH4v_tMY

    The New Plague is commonly called just "the plague"
    That's like the one occasion where they called it "plague" and yet everywhere else in the Gilneas campaign it's referred to as Blight.
    -At Gilneas, Forsaken Blightcallers say "This blight is useless."

    Plus a ton of other places in game where it's referred to as "blight".
    -The entire quest chain from Give it a Name where they officially name it "Blight". Which includes some gems as The Forsaken Blight and You: How Not to Die and The Forsaken Blight.
    -Angry Scrubbing Bubbles.
    -Studies in Lethality.
    -Blighted Last Rites.
    -Blight Slinger.
    -Forsaken Blight Spreader.
    -Blight Spreader.
    -Blight Slime.
    -Blight Aberration.
    -Engorged Blight Worm.
    -Putress throws blight barrels in The Battle for Undercity.

    Refered to as "New Plague":
    -Battle of Hillsbrad.
    -Entire quest chain of A New Plague.
    -Entire quest chain of Hints of a New Plague?.
    -Delivery to Silverpine Forest.
    -Quest chain A Recipe for Death.
    -Journey to Hillsbrad Foothills.
    -Elixir of Pain.
    -Variety is the Spice of Death.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hitei View Post
    And if you're going to bother arguing deployment, then this is VERY CLEARLY the New Plague, since the scourge plague is spread via slow corruption and takes time to manifest effects, where this plague is deployed in an instant with immediate effects. The corruption spread by the scourge plague also tends to have a blight-colored influence, turning things muddy and dull red-orange, where the Forsaken blight is always green.

    I don't understand how you can possibly argue that it's the scourge plague, it clearly isn't, since the humans don't come back as scourge, and since, again, what you're suggesting is that a single apothecary with limited lab equipment was able to completely recreate the scourge plague from inferior trace samples of the disease and brew up enough of that plague to bomb a farm.

    Two people walk into their newly rented apartment.
    "Oh, there's nothing covering the windows"
    "Yeah that's weird, at least the original owner had blinds on them"
    "Let's go buy drapes"

    Drapes are now blinds by your logic.
    The name of the quest is "Who needs Cauldrons?" Totally not making a comparison...

    He calls it "plague" when he's harvesting actual plague. He calls it "plague" when he deploys it. He doesn't call it "new plague" or "modified plague" or "special plague" or any other crap, he calls it by the exact same name as what he was harvesting from the grass: "plague". He doesn't say anything about modifying the plague you give him. He talks about the Scourge's "plague cauldrons" while he hands you "plague drums".
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-07-29 at 03:40 AM.

  18. #518
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    Could the walking dead - with their shoddily crafted siege weapons, lack of moral support, no allies save for a few pansies too interested in themselves up in Quel'Thelas and a secret weapon known as "the plague"... Stand up to Azeroth's greatest technological geniuses and chemical engineers (AKA Gnomes) and craftsman of the holiest undead-slaying weapons and impenetrable siege tanks of all time (AKA Dwarves)?

    Yeah...




    slightly biased.

  19. #519
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    Sylvanas couldn't.

    Shes got the Argent Crusade and the Ebon Blade to the East, to the South-East she has the whole Wildhammer clan, she has half of the Alliance South of her, along with Plenty of Sea access for a crafty attack on Undercity. She might have a chance with Stormwind IF it was only the humans defending, but Ironforge is an absolute no.

    If she COULD get absolute domination of the Thandol Span, she MAY have a chance. But currently she doesn't control Arathi Highlands.
    ---TransAwesome---
    A rainbow a day keeps the gloomies away.

  20. #520
    Quote Originally Posted by lupii View Post
    Sylvanas couldn't.

    Shes got the Argent Crusade and the Ebon Blade to the East.

    I giggled seeing all the arguing still going on here.

    They would be the first to get the taste of a new more powerful plague. Can't be in Sylvanas interest to let them hang around there in her territory anyways. There is a chance that the Ebon Blade betrays the Argent Crusade, they both do not really fit well together and fullfilled their combined pupose in defeating the Lichking, anyways.



    We shall see what happens......if Sylvanas succeeds to deal any great dmg in EK, through new allies or through a allpowerful new plague, the story will progress finally. Last time the story progressed after all of EK was destroyed by scourge and Legion forces.

    I think the rise of Sylvanas will come with a betrayal.
    She is way too clever, to declare a war just on her own.
    Last edited by Tyrannica; 2013-07-29 at 05:10 PM.

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