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  1. #341
    I blame the departure from the games established style and lore... pandaria is too colorful and it's inhabitants too cartoony and cliche.

    I barely made it out of jade forest without canceling my account, the damn Hozen made me feel like i was playing a disney channel cartoon or something.
    Slaying 8bit dragons with 6 pixel long swords since 1987.

  2. #342
    Immortal SL1200's Avatar
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    Solo scenarios are an affront to the entire concept of wow. There should never be another one made.... EVER.

  3. #343
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    I dunno. I didn't get to see the inside of Naxx or Ulduar until after Cata dropped, and I only got to go in ToGC once with a PuG. I did get to farm ICC trash for rep rings, though, and then cleared 10/12 with the 30% buff.

    By contrast, I have seen every raid instance and downed every boss in MoP via LFR.

    I'll tell you which experience was WAY more epic, though - my WotLK one.

    I guess I just feel like Blizzard has gone on this little crusade of making content accessible to everyone, with the unintended consequence of producing content that isn't even worth accessing.

    I honestly feel like a scaling buff like ICC had is a way better solution than the nerfed mechanics in LFR that basically turn everything into tank and spank.

    I never used to be able to get my foot in the door of raids because being married, kids, grad school, you name it just isn't conducive to being in a raiding guild. But because content wasn't accessible, it was way more desirable. I always dreamed of seeing raids, which created something worth playing towards - maxing out all my drops from heroics, whatever I could get from rep, crafting, etc., watching strategy vids on TankSpot, and then finally getting a chance to get in the place and try my hand at it. It was an epic experience.

    You might be able to just chalk that all up to nostalgia, though.

    I think some of it is nostalgia but it's also just poor game design. Look you can only rely on keeping the carrot away from people for so long before they realize the trick and give up. Even in studies of mice the mice after awhile either give up or worse turn on the other mice. At some point you have to entertain people and provide your audience something to do. Making content that people won't participate in isn't keeping them entertained and I think you can make a pretty good argument it wasn't keeping people entertained in the past. People were entertained by getting to max lvl and the immersion of the experience (which is dead now regardless of what the develoeprs do). Then they hit level cap, saw what kind of a scam was going on and left. Their was just such a huge churn of players that you never noticed the people leaving left right and center.

    I mean you cite WOTLK but WOTLK had normal 10 man raids which were FAR more accessible than the current normal 10 man raids. In fact WOTLK was the beginning of accessible raiding content because more and more players hit max cap and needed to be entertained. I actually prefer the stacking buff to but normals are overtuned this expansion anyway and could use a stacking buff. The bosses themselves could also just use less mechanics period. Like if they had a few that hit hard it would be better I think then the current lob a barrage of shit at you.

    At least in cataclysm I could avoid raids entirely and still get good progression. Now theirs little way to avoid lfr, you get shoved into it at every opportunity and well fuck raiding. Honestly. I don't mean to be uncouth but seriously if they didn't spend so much time developing these raids and spent it in favor of other crap we'd have other crap to do that wasn't just recolors of already existing shit.

    I mean to an extent I understand the argument your trying to make but what it says to me is we want other avenues of progression that aren't raiding. That are better than what exists currently, that can award you all kinds of gear gear at par with what you get in raids and doesn't rely on being shoved into raiding. That's WOTLK. That's Cataclysm to. That's everything they tried to undermine in mists in favor of shoving you into lfr.

    I'm in favor of exclusive raids but only if raids are like 4 bosses and come once every 12 months. In other words if the development time and resources afforded to exclusive raids matches their accessibility in terms of player use then yea exclusive as hell. I doubt the people doing those raids will like waiting that long for new content though.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-07-28 at 04:14 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  4. #344
    Old God Mirishka's Avatar
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    While I refuse to hop on the 'WoW is dying' bandwagon (pretty sure almost 8million subs still = Blizzard drowning in cash) I'd say the biggest missteps this expansion were probably alienation of alts, initial over-reliance on dailies and the relatively brutal difficulty of 'normal' 10man raids.

    Servers often thrived on 10man 'PuG raids' and this expansion pretty much killed those. Heart of Fear and Throne are/were extremely punishing in 10man and I know of an entire guild that pretty much mass-unsubbed because they just couldn't progress in the raids. I imagine others have as well. Flex raiding will be nice for those groups but I don't imagine that alone is going to bring people running back to the game. It almost feels like compensation more than a fix.

    I really like Mists: I have enjoyed it far more than Cataclysm. But they need to come out swinging at Blizzcon with whatever is the next expansion.

  5. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seezer View Post
    This expansion wasn't "Wowish" at all. Call them pandaren till you're blue in the face, but they are still pandas.
    Mythology isn't "mythic" at all. Call them minotaur till you're blue in the face, but they are still cows.

    Yet, the mythology is fairly well used in gaming...
    By Blizzard Entertainment:
    Part of the reason is that Battlegrounds are like ducks.
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  6. #346
    --LFR causing ppl to see content immediately
    --"Required" dailies
    --Lack of DUngeons
    --Scenarios being unpopular

    Those 4 things combined IMHO make up 99% of the reason behind people quitting, including me. I have not logged in for 4-5 MONTHS (Logged in 1x to kill the ToT endboss in LFR) I still have a few weeks left of unpaid subscriber time, so count me as one of the -1 subscribers in the next quarterly report or the one after.

    Knowing BLizz, theyll try to combat this loss by delaying LFR unlocks even longer than they do now. Didnt they space out the last LFR like 5-6 weeks? Pretty desperate thing to do instead of just fixing the problem altogether.
    Last edited by Trakanonn; 2013-07-28 at 04:14 AM.
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  7. #347
    The Patient sixx's Avatar
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    Well in my humble opinion.. Making this game to focus so much on Raiding is what is wrong.

    Lets see how I put this. Lets suppose we have this new guy that started playing the game, he hits max lvl then he learns that the best part of the game is raiding, cool. Now after a couple of weeks he is able to raid LFR, he queues up and in less than a couple of days he is able to beat every single boss in the game. Granted is on the lowest difficulty(LFR), but for this guy that just jumped into the game, doesn't that give him the feeling that he just beat the game? Hell yeah it does. Why keep playing the game them? He already beat it. "Oh but you can get better gear and experience higher difficulties", well so is beaten anyways, he'll just unsub and probably resub when the next patch with the next raid hits. Is not like he'll have a hard time either re-gearing for that upcoming raid. Game is more accessible and easier that lets say on Monday the new raid hits, he resubs then and probably by Saturday he's already gear ready for that new raid.

    The game right now is designed in such a way that with little effort you can "beat the game". Once you beat the game the excuse left for you to keep playing is better gear and beating bigger difficulties. Same excuse Diablo3 haves for you to keep playing it and look at it, is not going that great for it either.

    People always leaves this game. Everyday someone cancels his sub for numerous different reasons, either because he no longer haves the time, he's moving on, personal issues etc etc. What made WoW grow was the new Players that came everyday as well replacing this Old players that left and in turn them being more than those that leave. Lets say 2 left, 6 came in. But today on new players can "beat the game" in couple of months and there is no incentive to keep them around playing that eventually they unsub as well.

    Think about it. Like every time a new patch hits, the game always experiences a wave of people resubbing, but then again, the game doesn't have incentives to kept them around that they will unsub again once they beat the game.

    In the past because it took longer time to even be ready to raid something, that time consuming design is what kept players around making the player leave new players ratio in favor of the new players.

    Don't misunderstand me though, I'm all for making a game accessible to more and more people. Is just that it slipped Blizzard that making an accessible game would create this problem of beating the game early feeling and then having nothing else to do. So how to solve this? Welp, there is a bucket of things you can do to try and patch this problem, but reality is no one really knows yet. Hopefully Blizzard can figure it out.


    PS.: Soz for such a crappy post, It could have being made better, but hopefully you'll understand it xD. Is really late here and my brain is tired

  8. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    I think some of it is nostalgia but it's also just poor game design. Look you can only rely on keeping the carrot away from people for so long before they realize the trick and give up. Even in studies of mice the mice after awhile either give up or worse turn on the other mice. At some point you have to entertain people and provide your audience something to do. Making content that people won't participate in isn't keeping them entertained and I think you can make a pretty good argument it wasn't keeping people entertained in the past. People were entertained by getting to max lvl and the immersion of the experience (which is dead now regardless of what the develoeprs do). Then they hit level cap, saw what kind of a scam was going on and left. Their was just such a huge churn of players that you never noticed the people leaving left right and center.

    I mean you cite WOTLK but WOTLK had normal 10 man raids which were FAR more accessible than the current normal 10 man raids. In fact WOTLK was the beginning of accessible raiding content because more and more players hit max cap and needed to be entertained. I actually prefer the stacking buff to but normals are overtuned this expansion anyway and could use a stacking buff. The bosses themselves could also just use less mechanics period. Like if they had a few that hit hard it would be better I think then the current lob a barrage of shit at you.
    I guess I was just perfectly happy being led along for 2 years . But then again, I LOVED the 5-mans that were available in WoTLK, I didn't mind doing dailies because I was engrossed in the story, and I got new content and could continue to progress my character via the new 5-mans that came out with each raid patch. By the way, I vastly prefer getting new 5-mans that drop higher ilvl gear than the ones that ship with the xpac to having LFR with neutered mechanics. That's what I did all throughout Cata, too - grind 5-mans; do dailies. And I had fun. I suppose that model just requires too much development time and budget spread over different forms of content.

    EDIT: After reading your last edit, I think we actually more or less are in favor of the same things
    Last edited by Vigilant; 2013-07-28 at 04:25 AM.

  9. #349
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilant View Post
    I guess I was just perfectly happy being led along for 2 years But then again, I LOVED the 5-mans that were available in WoTLK, I didn't mind doing dailies because I was engrossed in the story, and I got new content and could continue to progress my character via the new 5-mans that came out with each raid patch. By the way, I vastly prefer getting new 5-mans that drop higher ilvl gear than the ones that ship with the xpac to having LFR with neutered mechanics. That's what I did all throughout Cata, too - grind 5-mans; do dailies. And I had fun. I suppose that model just requires too much development time and budget spread over different forms of content.
    I actually prefer that model as well. I think alot more folks did. Granted we also had easier normal 10 man raids in wotlk so their was still that to. It wasn't exactly lfr but it was easier.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  10. #350
    The Patient sixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trakanonn View Post
    --LFR causing ppl to see content immediately
    --"Required" dailies
    --Lack of DUngeons
    --Scenarios being unpopular

    Those 4 things combined IMHO make up 99% of the reason behind people quitting, including me. I have not logged in for 4-5 MONTHS (Logged in 1x to kill the ToT endboss in LFR) I still have a few weeks left of unpaid subscriber time, so count me as one of the -1 subscribers in the next quarterly report or the one after.

    Knowing BLizz, theyll try to combat this loss by delaying LFR unlocks even longer than they do now. Didnt they space out the last LFR like 5-6 weeks? Pretty desperate thing to do instead of just fixing the problem altogether.
    Exactly. And it'll be pretty sad if they take that decision of delaying LFR unlocks. I'll mean they ran out of ideas

    Back in my day your ultimate goal was to be able to raid, to get into raiding. It didn't only required getting the gear for it but it also required you interacting with the community to get through dungeons, heroics etc. To ultimately find a guild, a group of organized people to get into raiding. Today you can solo this game, is this an MMO anymore?

  11. #351
    Dailies. While not mandatory, making them the focus of the content was MoPs biggest drawback.

  12. #352
    The Patient sixx's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldNSilence View Post
    Dailies. While not mandatory, making them the focus of the content was MoPs biggest drawback.

    Oh yeah totally, and even so they "changed it back", the harm was already done.

  13. #353
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    Quote Originally Posted by helic View Post
    Pet battles: MASSIVE amounts of time and effort put into that with no big response or want for it in any way. Sure maybe 10% of whats left of the population likes it, but the time spent on that could have gone into something 90% would of liked.
    Two things completely wrong here: First of all Pet Battles were done by the UI time, meaning there was very little, if any, developer time spent on this, so the "time and effort" wouldn't have been allocated to anything other than UI enhancements, which I highly doubt would be the downfall of an expansion.

    Also, Blizzard has stated multiple times that they themselves were surprised at how well received pet battles were, how a large portion of the playerbase has actively engaged with them, and how such a small and easy to make concept has provided some of the best feedback in a long time for them. So you're wrong on all counts.

  14. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by Aztrazolo View Post
    For me, I'd have to jump on board with it not being alt friendly. Whatever I've done once on my main has been excruciatingly tedious on my alts, and I did not find the previous expansions to be that way. Though the repetition of dailies and such was a large contributing factor to that, I'd have to say for me that having what I consider largely uninspiring zones was also prohibitive of enjoyment a second time around. The zones were certainly impressive and well done, but nothing that from an immersive standpoint really was so awe-inspiring or different that just being in the zone was a reward in itself.
    I have to agree, I have tried with 5 different alts and only got 1 to 90, the rest it felt like it got really boring really fast.

  15. #355
    Pandaren Monk
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    This is really simple:
    1.) No one likes a rail-rider. The attitude of "you will play the way we tell you" is exactly the opposite of what creates replay value. Too many knee-jerk nerfs, too many nerfs to anything that feels fun. It's reaching the point where there's no reason to play anymore because you have no control over how you play the game.
    2.) Not alt friendly. LFR is a complete failure, getting valor for your alts is too much work, and heroic scenarios demand gear that only mains (and hardcore players' alts) have.
    3.) Monks are a disaster. Did they really think "let's make this class the same strength as everyone else and much harder to play" was a viable selling point?
    The plural of anecdote is not "data". It's "Bayesian inference".

  16. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    So, as we know the news of the sub decline is all over the place now and endless throwing of words ensues from it.

    But, lets talk here about what, seriously, happened in mists that caused such a decline. According to the charter shown on the other thread, well the decline in cata had begun, it did infact stabilize itself near the end of it, and it seemed to keep to a cool 10m players.
    Mists has dropped it down to over 2m more players since cata, which you'd think would be a massive wake up call for the developers to look hard at the product.

    So rather then mixing it into another thread based on 'omg 7.7 subs wow is dying', I'd like to simply ask what people think happened in mists that caused such a surge of losses in such a short space of time.

    Myself, I think its a knock on effect from several reasons. As cata already had an obvious leak, whatever they did in mists didn't stop the leak, and infact only seemed to make the hole bigger. In cata, the complaints seemed to be things like not enough endgame content to do, there heroic dungeons were to hard, there were not enough zones and it was all spread out, and so on.

    However, despite blizzard addressing certain issues said in cata, like giving more things to do outside of raiding in mists, and more reason to return to previous zones, and even something like throne of thunder, it still wasn't enough to stop the leak. Myself, I actually enjoyed mists a lot more then cata and its content. The raiding wasn't as exciting as cata, but raiding is only a small portion of the game overall.

    My belief is, on several points:

    - The endgame in mists, well it was fun enough the first time around, it was excruciating to repeat it on an alt. Even with things like rep buffs, having to do all those dailies in alts again after you did them on your main, it was to much. I believe the tabard system in wrath was always the best system, since it was good for mains and alts.

    - The replay value of wow just doesn't have that replay value it once did. It seems strange saying this now since it would have applied to cata too, but given how its been over three years since cata, and the massive changes they made to vanilla wow, one of the biggest complaints about cata was how lineal the game had become. I honestly have no motivation to level alts anymore because of how boring it is, which ironically fits into what I just said about the daily grind.

    I think, what blizzard seems to not understand, is how one of the biggest contributing factors of keeping players hooked on there game, is the reply value, as it is with any game. Alts are the reply value for wow, because once you've done something on your main you can't replay it. So, in what they've done with cata, and with mists, people simply don't want to play on other characters. They don't have anything to work towards on them because achievements are now account wide, so.. there i literally nothing to do outside of your main. and once you've done it on that, most would probably agree they'd sooner do the new content, not bother with alts, cancel sub until the next content patch, and then repeat.

    Anyway, thats my two cent. Unless blizzard finds a way of giving replay value to there gamers and give them reason to play other characters, to have a goal to work towards on them.. this is how it will be.
    For me, it feels way too alt unfriendly to get to max and also raiding is mostly dead unless your in a well known raiding guild. I have been in 3 guilds this x-pac and mostly all fall apart due to no interest in raiding or not getting the right days times and such, most of the time any raiders are told to just LFR if thay want to raid and I think that is what hurt the game more then anything.

  17. #357
    High Overlord
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    PvP. It has been out of control this expansion. Way too much cc and burst. Hoping in the next expansion ccs get a major rework so its not fear stun trinket cyclone fear root dead kinda scenario.

  18. #358
    was there any "setbacks" on this expansion??

  19. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by Trassk View Post
    snip
    Sorry, your theory has a major flaw, that is Vanilla and TBC. Which was painful to level then to actually invest time was a nightmare. So very painful that the game was streamlined. Obviously, WoW grew into the 800 gorilla in the room; during what is considered the most inconvenient, time consuming era of the game.

    But DUDE, the game was NEW! I think the argument that the game was "new" is a little flat. Considering at the time, games like UO, Everquest, and DAOC had much larger time sinks, and most of those gamers then considered WoW to be FAR easier to play and meta.

    The fact is WoW was easier then other games on the market. Then easier WoW got the more subs it got. Now, quite frankly, it's TOO easy, TOO streamlined, and TOO accessible. Thus dropping subs as nothing is special. It has nothing to with replay value of alts.

    WoW will retain quite a few subs, in comparison to other MMO games. One of 2 things happen... either WoW "revolutionizes" itself or someone knocks it down. Get used to not having as many people around. It's only going to get worse.

    Not only that, I thought you were better then posting. "OMG, why is WoW dropping subs posts.."

  20. #360
    I stopped playing because..

    *Nostalgia is gone
    *Friends i played with from Release through Wrath are almost all gone
    *The "self accomplishment" of the game has almost completely faded. Players are handed epics and hardly have to earn them.
    *Content becomes obsolete. In BC, Karazhan was relevant (even if only for Alts) to the final days of the expansion, simply because only a few guilds progressed much farther than it. Yes, i get the whole "we want to see all of the content" blah blah. But it leaves nothing to be desired when you know it will become trivial in a few months. (Why work hard for it?)
    *My warlock class has become a cake walk. Dont get we wrong; BC was sb spam all day, but for the most part, it was a complex class and fun.

    Overall, the game just isnt "bigger than i am" anymore and hasn't been for a long time. Heroic progression is still tough, but far less rewarding. Hence i refuse to put as much time into the game anymore.

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