Is it time to remove Hit & Expertise requirements?

[GrieverXIII]

The exception not the rule. Those classes can have itemization worked around. Hit and Expertise can go. They are for the most part incredible bland and boring stats.

So different classes having different priorities is bland and boring?

[Glorious Leader]

So different classes having different priorities is bland and boring?

You didn't list classes. You listed 3 specs. When everyone outside of those 3 specs chases hit and expertise JUST to 7% and that's it then yea that's bland and boring regardless of what idiosyncrasies those 3 particular specs have.

Like I said I'm in favor of stat complexity. I do think that's one area the game can be complex in and not put out casual or weaker or newer players. But hit and expertise are not complex by any means. Their mindless. Now if they had some added bonus say like what you listed with rogues there that would be interesting. But since they don't they can be gotten rid of in favor of the creation of say other stats. Like surge in swtor.

[Terahertz]

Although I don't want this to happen, they might aswell do so anyways.

Blizzard has dumbed down the game stat-wise a lot (with the removal of spell penetration, lowering hit rating requirements and expertise). They just feel unnecessary

[Lochton]

Although I don't want this to happen, they might aswell do so anyways.

Blizzard has dumbed down the game stat-wise a lot (with the removal of spell penetration, lowering hit rating requirements and expertise). They just feel unnecessary

But, removing it would just end up being another.. "OOOH, I have armor/weapon.. I can hit anything, I don't even need to care much about my gear". Would just be made worse.

But, as said. If Hit and Expertise went away. Then I want weapon skills back. 1-1000 skill point reach, must be obtained on mobs giving XP/honor

[Deleted]

I love tweaking my gear, it's the most fun of getting a new gear piece. Calculating how much of a gain it is to me and to see if my stat weights change.

Also, it's really frustrating if you miss a spell in your core rotation. Not having full hit is a very bad RNG creator. As a fire mage, if I miss one of my pyros in my Combustion opening, then my dps has been gimped pretty hard, from just missing a single spell.

[Lumineus]

News to me as far as Rogues and Fury Warriors go, but i'll take the words of a total random with no armory for granted, alright.

Anyway, how does that make them obsolete? Is having stats that varies in efficiency between classes not the point of having said stats in the first place?

I'm sure I'll take the word of a huntard over an actual melee too. If you're going over on hit as Fury, instead of getting more crit, you're doing it absolutely wrong.

As for the disparate effect of expertise, surely you see that it's a problem if Rogues, Druids, and UHDKs can grab more haste to further increase their DPS while Arms, Fury, and Ret cannot because whiffing repeatedly on attacks with actual cooldowns murders their DPS?

[Last Starfighter]

I think it is time to remove Hit and Expertise requirements from the Game. Blizzard often stresses the importance of making the game feel fun, which I strongly agree with and this change will do just that. Having to tweak your hit/expertise is boring and takes away from the more fun stats like crit, haste and mastery. I still believe there should be a small chance for a mob to dodge, parry or be missed by your spell, but this chance should scale automatically depending on the level difference between you and the npc.

I have spoken to quite a number of people in-game about this and most tend to agree that hit/expertise requirements are an unnecessary feature, considering the way the game has evolved over the years.

Edit: This suggestion is NOT about making the game easier, it is about making it MORE FUN.

The addition or removal of a stat doesn't make the game "More fun". It's the content. THey need to worry less about taking things away, and more with adding things.

[Frogged]

Where's the option to remove Expertise, as it's only punishing to melee, but keep Hit? That, or add a spell reflection wall in front of bosses that requires caster expertise.

No, but seriously: Hit and Expertise are horrible stats. No one likes them, no one finds the gameplay fun, or hard. You can hit cap within the first 5 minutes of being max level, and after that it becomes a chore to stay below the cap, nothing else. I'd be completely for removing them both. What would be terrible, though, is what you proposed about still having a chance to miss abilities randomly. That's less fun than the current stat scheme, by a mile.

[melodramocracy]

The addition or removal of a stat doesn't make the game "More fun". It's the content. THey need to worry less about taking things away, and more with adding things.

All signs point to this not being the direction the game is going. You should fully prepare for quite a few of your current abilities, no matter what class you play, to become baseline or go away entirely... and I'm sure some stats will also go the same route.

[GrieverXIII]

I'm sure I'll take the word of a huntard over an actual melee too. If you're going over on hit as Fury, instead of getting more crit, you're doing it absolutely wrong.

As for the disparate effect of expertise, surely you see that it's a problem if Rogues, Druids, and UHDKs can grab more haste to further increase their DPS while Arms, Fury, and Ret cannot because whiffing repeatedly on attacks with actual cooldowns murders their DPS?

I heard people don't have alts, besides i don't know many high end raiders that don't know the basics of most specs of their specific role.. Those classes also aren't big outliers in the DPS balance, except maybe Rogues on pure single target fights (wich are scarce and usually meaningless, ie Jin'rok), if they can balance their stats differently than others, the system is working as intended.

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You didn't list classes. You listed 3 specs. When everyone outside of those 3 specs chases hit and expertise JUST to 7% and that's it then yea that's bland and boring regardless of what idiosyncrasies those 3 particular specs have.

I listed 3 examples, i could list many others but why would i bother arguing with a brick wall that can't even admit when he's being wrong and simply argue using the same baseless blanket statement?

[Baracuda]

In that case why even have 3 stats? If they are equal, we should just have something called "Number Buffer" as the 3rd stat on armor. Even better, remove stamina and just make Health based on itemlevels (it all ready is so why even have it as a stat on gear). That can be done with the main stat as well since it's based off ilvl. Just have Stamina and Primary stats calculated under the hood without any visual on gear. Here's your lovely item now:

Are you saying it's better now? Because many classes don't have even 3 stats. It's stack this, then maybe that.

No, I like having to think about gear instead of just tunnelling into the most DPS-per-item-point stat. With the addition these days of both gems and reforging, it's a lot easier to balance your stats if you have poorly itemized gear that it used to be.

The hit and expertise caps are just another way of seeing someone who takes that little extra time to maximize their character (really, with an add-on like ReforgeLite, it takes less than 3 minutes to re-optimise your gear), just the same as seeing those who best-in-slot enchants and gems.

There's no thought about, that's why it's worthless. Do people actually think they're smart for capping hit? Hit rating is an artifical DPS boost, it's like primary stats on steroids and it's a no-brainer to take it, that's what makes it bland and uninteresting. Merge hit and exp and remove the god damn cap, it's not a choice atm. It's everyone taking the "best talent".

[Glorious Leader]

I listed 3 examples, i could list many others but why would i bother arguing with a brick wall that can't even admit when he's being wrong and simply argue using the same baseless blanket statement?

Right back at ya slick.

[GrieverXIII]

Where's the option to remove Expertise, as it's only punishing to melee, but keep Hit? That, or add a spell reflection wall in front of bosses that requires caster expertise.

No, but seriously: Hit and Expertise are horrible stats. No one likes them, no one finds the gameplay fun, or hard. You can hit cap within the first 5 minutes of being max level, and after that it becomes a chore to stay below the cap, nothing else. I'd be completely for removing them both. What would be terrible, though, is what you proposed about still having a chance to miss abilities randomly. That's less fun than the current stat scheme, by a mile.

Sure, make dps abilities skill shots, otherwise you can't explain how nobody can ever miss without stats like hit or expertise.

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Right back at ya slick.

I provide concrete examples to back my arguments, you provide void claims and opinions. If you can't see the difference, i won't further waste my time.

[DarkAxius]

I think they should be removed. They're not an interesting stat at all. They're essentially penalty stats which cause you to deal less damage without, which I think sucks in terms of game design.

I'd prefer to see bosses receive a buff in health to compensate for the extra DPS stats on gear.

[Lochton]

I think they should be removed. They're not an interesting stat at all. They're essentially penalty stats which cause you to deal less damage without, which I think sucks in terms of game design.

I'd prefer to see bosses receive a buff in health to compensate for the extra DPS stats on gear.

It might not be interesting, but it's still an important stat to be able to deal your dmg. Not really much penalty over it, just cap it and then forge the rest for stuff you need.

[Punisher069]

If anything remove expertise and keep hit. It is redundant, they both help you hit your target. They could get rid of expertise and just make everyone go for the current caster hit cap.

[Glorious Leader]

I provide concrete examples to back my arguments, you provide void claims and opinions. If you can't see the difference, i won't further waste my time.

You provided 3 exceptions. Those aren't concrete examples of anything other than exceptions to the rule of 7% hit and expertise. Your just being belligerent now because somebody doesn't agree with you. It's fine. Common on these forums really.

[Vaalyn]

I welcome opinions that differ from my own, but the "slippery slope" argument does not really apply to this topic.

This is not about making the game easier, it is about making it more fun.

I'm sorry - but for some of us, it doesn't make the game more fun. Some find "fun" in tweaking gear and looking for the optimal balance of stats to maximize performance.
My suggestion would be if you don't want to be concerned with hit and expertise, don't. If you want to channel all your stats into "fun" stats. go right ahead, but understand there are consequences if you do. You will miss more and those big numbers won't be quite as big as you miss on your money moves.

[GrieverXIII]

You provided 3 exceptions. Those aren't concrete examples of anything other than exceptions to the rule of 7% hit and expertise. Your just being belligerent now because somebody doesn't agree with you. It's fine. Common on these forums really.

Melee : Almost every specs (including tanks) value Hit and Expertise to different degrees, very few actually stick to the "7.5% cap".

Casters : 15% cap that can be attained using either hit, expertise and in multiple cases, offering an actual value to spirit for hybrid dps specs removing the need to bloat tables with more loot only used by single specs. (Ele, Shadow and Boomkins would need specific off-pieces without spirit that only them can use without having to cap hit using spirit).

[Lochton]

Melee : Almost every specs (including tanks) value Hit and Expertise to different degrees, very few actually stick to the "7.5% cap".

Casters : 15% cap that can be attained using either hit, expertise and in multiple cases, offering an actual value to spirit for hybrid dps specs removing the need to bloat tables with more loot only used by single specs. (Ele, Shadow and Boomkins would need specific off-pieces without spirit that only them can use without having to cap hit using spirit).

Well, this does seem like a good example to me.