Final Showdown. Tinkerer VS Demon Hunter

[Jessicka]

Tinkerers and Demon Hunters are ATM the most popular class choices IMO.

Maybe here. I think Rangers would win a poll across the broader community.

[kensim]

Banestalker while they are a lore class that wasn't the point made. It was how much demand is there for inclusion into WoW. IIRC the three most wanted classes were (in no particular order) DK, Monk, and Demon Hunter. I agree that you can probably throw Warden/Ranger into the mix as well.

Normally I would agree no new class, however I think Blizzard wants to NAIL this expansion BIG TIME. As such I could see a new class, and a major graphical revamp lead by the new character models (instead of a new race). Just a guess, no real data per se.

[Teriz]

*Yawn*

Another thread where Teriz ignores everything and spouts off the same old same old.

Here is the funny part, could it be a Tinkerer class with an underwater theme? Sure.

Problem is, as normal you have no idea what the theme is. You are basing your arguments from non-facts again. You are making statements like you follow up ideas you don't like with drive like "The idea of playable Naga is pretty far fetched". About as far-fetched as Tinkerers or about anything else at this point not based on facts.

Except the idea of a playable Naga is pretty far fetched. Its also far more far-fetched than Tinkers, since I have already shown how a Tinker/Technology class is the only archetype that fits the final spot in WoW's class setup. I have also shown how steampunk/technology and undersea themes work hand and hand.

Additionally, Naga have several lore and mechanical problems that would prevent them from becoming a playable race.

Watch I can create vapor content too...

"Since Queen Azshara wants to take over the whole of Azeroth, she uses her powerful magics to augment a portion of her Naga army into elite ground (legged) troops. When a sizeable contingent from the 19th Naga Legion performs recon in Pandaria they stumbled upon Wrathion, who disgusted with the Alliance convinces the Naga that their Queen is up to no good and a second sundering will be the cost of her efforts. Together, with Wrathion's aide, these Naga gather others of their brethren to join the Horde. King Varian in response, and understanding the upcoming struggle will be in many ways an aquatic affair, offer the Jinyu official status within the Alliance."

Or...

"In the depths of oceans Queen Azshara stirs, once again putting into action a plan to summon the mighty Sargaras. As a gift to the queen the fallen Titan gives Azshara is given the tortured remnant soul of Illidan Stormrage. Cast back to Azeroth in his mortal form, Illidan escapes the queen's clutches and begins forming a new Illidari legion, led by the bravest of heroes who make the ultimate sacrifice, and walk the path of Demon Hunter."

See once I don't bother with facts or communicate speculation as just that, makes this whole process of trying to be a know it all jackhole much easier.

The fact is that it won't be Demon Hunters because DHs have severe class overlap (GC), and because we won't be fighting demons in the ocean depths (Have we ever fought demons in the ocean?). That scenario is also doubtful because the Naga, Azshara, and N'Zoth coincides with the Dark Below, not Sargeras and the Burning Legion.

Also, Wrathion's influence isn't stronger than Azshara or N'Zoth's. N'Zoth is the main old God that corrupted Wrathion's father. Or as Chris Metzen put it; "Signed Deathwing's checks". Azshara is far more powerful than a Black Dragon whelp. It is implausible to believe that Wrathion would be able to convince Naga to leave Queen Azshara, because the Naga believe what she believes, and will do whatever she wants them to do. If you doubt this, please show me a neutral Naga faction in the game. It doesn't exist because all Naga are highly corrupted creatures who live only to serve the will of Azshara.

So no, the scenario you outlined is pretty unlikely, and frankly sounds pretty stupid. Legged Naga? LoL! Yeah, howabout no.

[Florena]

Except the idea of a playable Naga is pretty far fetched. Its also far less far-fetched than Tinkers, since I have already shown how a Tinker/Technology class is the only archetype that fits the final spot in WoW's class setup. I have also shown how steampunk/technology and undersea themes work hand and hand.

Additionally, Naga have several lore and mechanical problems that would prevent them from becoming a playable race.



The fact is that it won't be Demon Hunters because DHs have severe class overlap (GC), and because we won't be fighting demons in the ocean depths (Have we ever fought demons in the ocean?). That scenario is also doubtful because the Naga, Azshara, and N'Zoth coincides with the Dark Below, not Sargeras and the Burning Legion.

Also, Wrathion's influence isn't stronger than Azshara or N'Zoth's. N'Zoth is the main old God that corrupted Wrathion's father. Or as Chris Metzen put it; "Signed Deathwing's checks". Azshara is far more powerful than a Black Dragon whelp. It is implausible to believe that Wrathion would be able to convince Naga to leave Queen Azshara, because the Naga believe what she believes, and will do whatever she wants them to do. If you doubt this, please show me a neutral Naga faction in the game. It doesn't exist because all Naga are highly corrupted creatures who live only to serve the will of Azshara.

So no, the scenario you outlined is pretty unlikely, and frankly sounds pretty stupid. Legged Naga? LoL! Yeah, howabout no.

True, there's no neutral naga faction, but there was also no neutral DK faction before Wrath, no established pandaren society before MoP, etc. IF blizzard were to make playable naga, which for the record I don't want or expect to see, they could find some lore reason like a naga oracle leading a small band of followers away from Azshara. Not likely, but certainly wouldn't be the first such instance.

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

Im willing to put money on us not getting a class this xpac.

Same. For me the only way we would have gotten one was if it was the Legion.

I think we're talking 95 and 2 races this time.

[Teriz]

Maybe here. I think Rangers would win a poll across the broader community.

We already have a Ranger class. They're called Hunters.

[Deleted]

demon hunters all the way baby!

[Deleted]

DH looks boring and way too overhyped. I'd rather have a Tinkerer, but if the next expansion will be about the legion, well... Probably they'll go with the DH.

[Teriz]

True, there's no neutral naga faction, but there was also no neutral DK faction before Wrath, no established pandaren society before MoP, etc. IF blizzard were to make playable naga, which for the record I don't want or expect to see, they could find some lore reason like a naga oracle leading a small band of followers away from Azshara. Not likely, but certainly wouldn't be the first such instance.

If you're referring to Lady Vashj, she never defied Azshara. In fact, there's plenty of evidence to suggest she joined Illidan and Sunstrider to merely gain a Naga foothold in Outland, and expand their empire. Every lore bit about that scenario states that Vashj was only there to satisfy her own ends, and Naga's ends are to become the dominant race over all others.

Now as for neutral DKs: We already had examples of undead breaking the will of the Lich King. Even Arthas himself showed defiance against his masters before he bcame the Lich King himself. So its not out of the realm of possibility that a DK would break his masters control, and seek to redeem themselves.

There was an established Pandaren society, since Chen Stormstout came from said Pandaren society way back in WC3. So we knew that somewhere, more Pandaren existed, and they had a pretty impressive society that we hadn't found yet.

There is no reason for any Naga to ever betray Azshara. They all share her goals, they all believe the way she believes, and they all want what she wants. They're pretty mindless creatures outside of the leadership, and its doubtful that the leadership would defy their empress. Why would they? They've stuck with her for thousands of years at this point.

[Skayth]

The Dark Below, an azshara and nzoth expansion, i want sea witch... but I doubt there will be a new class for this expansion.

[Teriz]

The Dark Below, an azshara and nzoth expansion, i want sea witch... but I doubt there will be a new class for this expansion.

The males would have to be called "Sea Warlocks". Not to mention 2 of their abilities are already co-opted by other classes.

Ain't happening.

- - - Updated - - -

Only on mmo champion. Everywhere else has no idea tinkers are even a thought.

Actually if you check out the official forums, there are several Tinker/technology class-based threads.

Not to mention that GC knows what a Tinker is.

[Florena]

If you're referring to Lady Vashj, she never defied Azshara. In fact, there's plenty of evidence to suggest she joined Illidan and Sunstrider to merely gain a Naga foothold in Outland, and expand their empire. Every lore bit about that scenario states that Vashj was only there to satisfy her own ends, and Naga's ends are to become the dominant race over all others.

Now as for neutral DKs: We already had examples of undead breaking the will of the Lich King. Even Arthas himself showed defiance against his masters before he bcame the Lich King himself. So its not out of the realm of possibility that a DK would break his masters control, and seek to redeem themselves.

There was an established Pandaren society, since Chen Stormstout came from said Pandaren society way back in WC3. So we knew that somewhere, more Pandaren existed, and they had a pretty impressive society that we hadn't found yet.

There is no reason for any Naga to ever betray Azshara. They all share her goals, they all believe the way she believes, and they all want what she wants. They're pretty mindless creatures outside of the leadership, and its doubtful that the leadership would defy their empress. Why would they? They've stuck with her for thousands of years at this point.

I wasn't referring to Vashj, but to a potential character they could make. No Naga have rebelled YET, but that doesn't mean blizzard couldn't form a splinter group IF they wanted to. It would be far from the first time they've made new lore or made alterations to existing lore to do something they wanted to do. I'm not saying it's likely, I'm saying there's nothing to stop blizz from doing it if that's what they want to do.

[Skayth]

The males would have to be called "Sea Warlocks". Not to mention 2 of their abilities are already co-opted by other classes.

Ain't happening.

So female warlocks are called witches? right, they arent, please do not bring reality to azeroth. A male sea witch... will be called just that Sea WITCH. Ony one of their abilities is coopted into another class, all their other abilities are not. Chain lightning is not the same as Forked Lightning.

If you're referring to Lady Vashj, she never defied Azshara. In fact, there's plenty of evidence to suggest she joined Illidan and Sunstrider to merely gain a Naga foothold in Outland, and expand their empire. Every lore bit about that scenario states that Vashj was only there to satisfy her own ends, and Naga's ends are to become the dominant race over all others.

Now as for neutral DKs: We already had examples of undead breaking the will of the Lich King. Even Arthas himself showed defiance against his masters before he bcame the Lich King himself. So its not out of the realm of possibility that a DK would break his masters control, and seek to redeem themselves.

There was an established Pandaren society, since Chen Stormstout came from said Pandaren society way back in WC3. So we knew that somewhere, more Pandaren existed, and they had a pretty impressive society that we hadn't found yet.

There is no reason for any Naga to ever betray Azshara. They all share her goals, they all believe the way she believes, and they all want what she wants. They're pretty mindless creatures outside of the leadership, and its doubtful that the leadership would defy their empress. Why would they? They've stuck with her for thousands of years at this point.

They are not mindless, they are not idiots. There are plenty of examples of friendly naga, not to mention even love between a naga and a gnome (though one sided). Naga are very intelligent creatures, even the males that are not that smart, they just happen to be very loyal. But, can a faction easily break away and join the alliance and the horde? Easily. Lore can be written. They can easily be made a new race.

[kensim]

Except the idea of a playable Naga is pretty far fetched. Its also far less far-fetched than Tinkers, since I have already shown how a Tinker/Technology class is the only archetype that fits the final spot in WoW's class setup. I have also shown how steampunk/technology and undersea themes work hand and hand.

Additionally, Naga have several lore and mechanical problems that would prevent them from becoming a playable race.



The fact is that it won't be Demon Hunters because DHs have severe class overlap (GC), and because we won't be fighting demons in the ocean depths (Have we ever fought demons in the ocean?). That scenario is also doubtful because the Naga, Azshara, and N'Zoth coincides with the Dark Below, not Sargeras and the Burning Legion.

Also, Wrathion's influence isn't stronger than Azshara or N'Zoth's. N'Zoth is the main old God that corrupted Wrathion's father. Or as Chris Metzen put it; "Signed Deathwing's checks". Azshara is far more powerful than a Black Dragon whelp. It is implausible to believe that Wrathion would be able to convince Naga to leave Queen Azshara, because the Naga believe what she believes, and will do whatever she wants them to do. If you doubt this, please show me a neutral Naga faction in the game. It doesn't exist because all Naga are highly corrupted creatures who live only to serve the will of Azshara.

So no, the scenario you outlined is pretty unlikely, and frankly sounds pretty stupid. Legged Naga? LoL! Yeah, howabout no.

Teriz you missed my point.

A.) You have no idea what is more likely, you are not in the design meetings. You can say, I feel that it is less likely or my guess is that it is less likely but you really have no idea and don't know. I can say that I bet there have been more blue posts regarding Naga than regarding Tinkerers.

B.) My examples were showing that I can take any content and "argue" like you do and make it sound like fact.

C.) Blizzard will do what Blizzard wants to do. If they want Demon Hunters in the game, then there will be Demon Hunters in the game. If they want Naga, then there will be Naga. What we think is "possible" or "Likely" doesn't mean much.

As far as "lore" goes supporting decisions, they have been clear that they feel free to make whatever changes they need or require, even in retrospect. If I am not mistaken they didn't even realize when putting our pals the Draenei in the game, they retconned the whole corruption story of Sargeras.

Same with DK lore, the whole Panda land lore etc.

They create what they need when they need it.

[Teriz]

I wasn't referring to Vashj, but to a potential character they could make. No Naga have rebelled YET, but that doesn't mean blizzard couldn't form a splinter group IF they wanted to. It would be far from the first time they've made new lore or made alterations to existing lore to do something they wanted to do. I'm not saying it's likely, I'm saying there's nothing to stop blizz from doing it if that's what they want to do.

Blizzard could certainly do that, but the result of that is more likely a faction that aids both sides, not a splinter group that joins either the horde or the alliance. There's too much hatred and bad blood on all sides for a playable race to occur. Additionally, a neutral Naga faction wouldn't have all the logistical problems that a playable Naga race would have.

[Jessicka]

The males would have to be called "Sea Warlocks". Not to mention 2 of their abilities are already co-opted by other classes.

Ain't happening.

Why would they? Male practitioners of Wicca are still Witches.

In any case, looks like Dark Below was a hoax, so Demon Hunters are back on the table.

[Teriz]

So female warlocks are called witches? right, they arent, please do not bring reality to azeroth. A male sea witch... will be called just that Sea WITCH. Ony one of their abilities is coopted into another class, all their other abilities are not. Chain lightning is not the same as Forked Lightning.

Its Mana shield and frost arrow. Of course Frost Arrow is a bit iffy. I just listed it because it does the exact same thing as Concussive shot.

They are not mindless, they are not idiots. There are plenty of examples of friendly naga, not to mention even love between a naga and a gnome (though one sided). Naga are very intelligent creatures, even the males that are not that smart, they just happen to be very loyal. But, can a faction easily break away and join the alliance and the horde? Easily. Lore can be written. They can easily be made a new race.

"Plenty of friendly Naga"? Where? Every mission I've been on, I've killed Naga on sight, on every continent, and at every point in the leveling process.

Now sure, Blizzard could create a Naga faction that aids us (for some reason) to take down Azshara. However, we're talking about a playable race here. There's too many mechanical and story obstacles for that to happen (IMO), which makes them a pretty far-fetched concept for a race.

[kensim]

Blizzard could certainly do that, but the result of that is more likely a faction that aids both sides, not a splinter group that joins either the horde or the alliance. There's too much hatred and bad blood on all sides for a playable race to occur. Additionally, a neutral Naga faction wouldn't have all the logistical problems that a playable Naga race would have.

Same could have been said about DKs sans the "logistical" issues which Blizzard can manage in a number of ways. Personally I do not think that Naga will be a playable option however I recognize that it has been a long standing request by many players. Blizzard may cash in on that interest, only they really know.

[Teriz]

Teriz you missed my point.

A.) You have no idea what is more likely, you are not in the design meetings. You can say, I feel that it is less likely or my guess is that it is less likely but you really have no idea and don't know. I can say that I bet there have been more blue posts regarding Naga than regarding Tinkerers.

Probably because Naga have been a consistent villain race since vanilla, so that isn't surprising.

B.) My examples were showing that I can take any content and "argue" like you do and make it sound like fact.

Except nothing you said would be fact, given the game's story and history. Wrathion overpowering Azshara's control, and a Naga's natural tendency to follow her? Yeah, ain't happening.

C.) Blizzard will do what Blizzard wants to do. If they want Demon Hunters in the game, then there will be Demon Hunters in the game. If they want Naga, then there will be Naga. What we think is "possible" or "Likely" doesn't mean much.

And so far, Blizzard has provided pretty rational and logical explanations for their story choices. Your scenario is like Blizzard taking their rules and tossing them out the window, and fitting things into the game just because they can fit them. Blizzard has never structured WoW lore in that fashion. Which is why I can sit here and say what I say with a measure of authority.

As far as "lore" goes supporting decisions, they have been clear that they feel free to make whatever changes they need or require, even in retrospect. If I am not mistaken they didn't even realize when putting our pals the Draenei in the game, they retconned the whole corruption story of Sargeras.

Same with DK lore, the whole Panda land lore etc.

They create what they need when they need it.

Yeah, and all of those lore decisions made sense. Playable Naga doesn't make sense.

[kensim]

Probably because Naga have been a consistent villain race since vanilla, so that isn't surprising.



Except nothing you said would be fact, given the game's story and history. Wrathion overpowering Azshara's control, and a Naga's natural tendency to follow her? Yeah, ain't happening.



And so far, Blizzard has provided pretty rational and logical explanations for their story choices. Your scenario is like Blizzard taking their rules and tossing them out the window, and fitting things into the game just because they can fit them. Blizzard has never structured WoW lore in that fashion. Which is why I can sit here and say what I say with a measure of authority.



Yeah, and all of those lore decisions made sense. Playable Naga doesn't make sense.

So easy, you really need to get better at this.

Dks were a consistent bad guy since what WC2?

My intention was to give support nothing with fact, just like you do. Clearly you agree I succeeded in that.

Blizzard has been clear that game overrides lore, or if you wish the lore will be made to fit the game as required.

Lastly I can find lots of folks who, at the time, disagreed with the inclusion of DKs into the playable factions. Hell there were numerous threads back in the day lamenting the addition of Pandas, comments still made now. You comment that the lore decisions made sense isn't complete, it should read it made sense to you. I too have been pretty happy with those decisions, however as this is subjective you cannot globally state you are correct and right at a macro level.

Reasoning 101 man, I am doing your job for ya! Step it up.