Rejoice! Demon Hunter is already playable in-game, but not clear enough, apparently.

[Thimagryn]

Could Blizzard design a Demon Hunter class that was different from Warlocks?
Yes. It just wouldn't have anything the current batch of Demon Hunters have. They would NOT be the WoW style Demon Hunters. The class coudl be implemented failry easily - perhaps akin to the D3 style DH - but it would not be the DH WoW players want to play.

Now at least you're making sense. Finally.

WHY is not important. You have people still asking to this day why Blizzard decided to focus on Pandas; it doesn't make the fact that a whole expansion with new content was created out of that decision. The fact is, it happened, and it was beyond the expectations of the public. If someone 3 yrs ago said Pandaria was going to be the next expansion, people would laugh at the idea; but no amount of theme-comparisons or evidence against Pandaria would have held any water.

That is the biggest hole in your argument. Your claims are irrelevant when considering CAN a Demon Hunter exist within WoW.

The likelyhood of it happening is low; but even that can not be explained by your theme system. The reasoning would be much simpler than you imply. It's as simple as saying the potential for a completely new class (such as Tinker) outweighs that for a potential Demon Hunter. Not because 'Demon Hunter's can't exist because Warlocks fill that role already'.

Do you see the priest as a warrior? Someone whose primary goal and role in life is combat? Having combat spells and an in-game combat role doesn't really contribute to the class theme.

You know what a Paradox is?

Talen - Priests are Healers, Paladins are Holy Warriors. Warlocks and Demon Hunters use 'Demons'.

But Priests and Paladins use holy Magic, why is this okay?

Talen- Because Paladins are Holy Warriors. Priests aren't Warriors

But Warlocks are more like Summoners and Demon Hunters are Demonic-empowered Warriors

Talen- But they both use Demons!

[Mormolyce]

Diablo 3 Demon Hunters have nothing at all in common with Warcraft ones, it's just a name. Even if they did make a new class, call it "Demon Hunter" but not give it Metamorphosis (the whole point of a DH), they still wouldn't make it like the D3 one.

[Jtree]

Enhancement Shaman are "fire melee".

Nature spells hold a much more prominent place in their rotation and history. When I think of enhancement, I think of windfury first and foremost.

I'm talking about a DH spec that absolutely vomits fire all over everything. (Not literal vomit, that would be gross). Their fighting style is to swing blades and flame everywhere. They slice the enemy up and burn what's left.

The core objection remains.


Either you end up with a class which shares 90% of its toolkit and looks with the warlock, or you end up with a class which ends up bearing no resemblence to the existing DH class outside the name.

Completely skipped over the part where I said that, to create a new class, Blizzard will make well over 100 abilities and such. Even if DHs get those two spells, that will be less than 2% of the tool kit. Smaller if you want to count resources, as I would think they'd create something other than mana/demonic fury.

[Teriz]

Nature spells hold a much more prominent place in their rotation and history. When I think of enhancement, I think of windfury first and foremost.

I'm talking about a DH spec that absolutely vomits fire all over everything. (Not literal vomit, that would be gross). Their fighting style is to swing blades and flame everywhere. They slice the enemy up and burn what's left.

The core of Enhancement DPS is Lava Lash and Searing flames. Flame tongue is imbued on the offhand weapon and causes fire damage. Enhancement Shaman can unleash the flametongue imbue, causing instant fire damage, and increasing the damage of the next fire-based attack. Enhancement AoE is based on Flame Shock and Fire Nova. Searing Flames is increased by Searing Totem and/or Fire Elemental.

So to recap;

Nature based attacks: Storm Strike, Windfury Weapon, Unleash Wind
Fire Based attacks: Flametongue Weapon, Lava Lash, Flame Shock, Fire Nova, Searing Totem, Fire Elemental, Unleash Flame, Searing Flames

Yeah....

[Jokubas]

I wouldn't mind Demon Hunters being represented by Warlocks in the long run (although it would mean that their lore would get swallowed up too, if other similar things are any indication).

The problem is, right now they're not. There is no Warlock spec that's melee, dual-wields, has no relation to pets whatsoever, and can be played by night elves, all four of which are the very foundation of the class. The only key component of Demon Hunters that Warlocks have is the use of fel magic, and they don't even use it the same way Demon Hunters do (blatantly like a mage, as opposed to complementary to their close-quarters fury). A demon form and a couple of stolen abilities do not a Demon Hunter make.

If Blizzard altered or made a new spec that did have these things, then I would agree.

[Jtree]

The core of Enhancement DPS is Lava Lash and Searing flames. Flame tongue is imbued on the offhand weapon and causes fire damage. Enhancement Shaman can unleash the flametongue imbue, causing instant fire damage, and increasing the damage of the next fire-based attack. Enhancement AoE is based on Flame Shock and Fire Nova. Searing Flames is increased by Searing Totem and/or Fire Elemental.

So to recap;

Nature based attacks: Storm Strike, Windfury Weapon, Unleash Wind
Fire Based attacks: Flametongue Weapon, Lava Lash, Flame Shock, Fire Nova, Searing Totem, Fire Elemental, Unleash Flame, Searing Flames

Yeah....

Having played the actual spec, I can tell you straight up you forgot critical stuff on the nature side: lightning shield, lighting bolt, chain lightning, earth shock, spirit wolves.

Searing flames is a stacking buff, akin to Maelstrom Weapon, which is a major class mechanic and keeps Lightning Bolt among enhancement's top damage abilities.

I've played the spec over the last four expansions. I understand basic mechanics and theme. It's not "fire-melee" like I was suggesting, it's more of an "elemental warrior". Looking at 25H parses for some of the top shaman in the world, fire appears to make about a third of their total damage, including the elemental pet.


So to recap: not at all what I imagine a DH Immolation spec. Think searing skin, burning ground, and fiery embers everywhere.

[nightfalls]

Having played the actual spec, I can tell you straight up you forgot critical stuff on the nature side: lightning shield, lighting bolt, chain lightning, earth shock, spirit wolves... I've played the spec over the last four expansions. I understand basic mechanics and theme. It's not "fire-melee" like I was suggesting, it's more of an "elemental warrior". Looking at 25H parses for some of the top shaman in the world, fire appears to make about a third of their total damage, including the elemental pet.

Ascendance is also a big one, and I think that's where both a large amount of nature damage comes from, and what gives enhancement somewhat of a wind theme and elemental somewhat of a fire theme. Both specs however do use a lot of fire and nature magic (frost doesn't seem to figure in as much outside of PvP).

[Monoxyde]

Then tell me why a Demon Hunter would fight another Demon Hunter via the faction conflict.

for the same reason that my paladin hangs out with undead.

[Aleksej89]

Glyph of Demon Hunting (the tank glyph) turns warlock's Shadow Bolt into some kind of a melee attack with several stacks, as far as i remember?

That right there is your "melee capability" in Demo warlocks, as far as blizzard is concerned.

[Belisaurio]

Sure they can. That isn't the point. The problem is if you do so, you end up with a DH that has nothing in common with the existing in game DHs except the name.
The problem is that regardless of anything else, you ARE going to annoy Warlocks by giving Demon Hunters demon themed abilities because Warlocks see that as their balliwick. Their niche. Their flavor.

Blizzard can ignore that but being blunt - they don't have any reason to do so.

I never saw a priest wining about paladins. Warlock is the "summoner" archetype in wow. They use demon-theme, but like I said, Paladins and Priest have more in common than DH and Warlock.

Then you haven't done your research.

Yeah, since WC3 playing, and I was an active battle.net player until firelord patch;My main army was Orcs & NE, so I played a lot of times with DH.
I fought all DH in wow too and I have done all quests DH-related.
I want to ask you why you say that DH are a ranged class? is there any videos or thing or something that explain or give another look to "ranged- DH"??

So we've gone from "Can't possibly happen" to "Hard to Believe because it doesn't fit in with my personal vision of the class".

Regardless of the fact that YOU don't see DHs as a pet class, the truth is that in lore they have been shown to be fully capable of doing so. That doesn't mean that Blizzard will develop that ability, but it is one more crossover between the two classes that can't be ignored...no matter what your personal vision states.

No no, you misunderstood what I was saying. of course that Blizzard can create a new archetype of DH that had 3 pets at time. But the point is that no DH used a pet-based sustem. Let's explain that:
-First DH/ plot: Illidan in WC3. No signs of pet-battle system. No use of summoning demons/whatever to his main skills-kit. So we can assume that DH didn't have anything pet-slave related.
-Second DH/ plot: Loramus Thalipedes. A DH quest giver. He had 3 fel hunters near him. The quest involve helping him (resurrect him) and do a long chain to kill some demons. No summon, no pet-battle abilities, nothing to assume that they use a pet-battle system.
-Third DH/ plot: Vish Kozus. We don't know If he is a true DH, but no pet-battle related quests or demon-slaves
-Fourth DH/ plot: Theras, Netharel, Alandien and Varedis. Again, a melee-fighter that don't use anything pet-battle related. No summons in their quest-chains.
-Fifth DH/ plot: Leotheras the Blind. Boss mechanics, he splits his demon-form from his body and summon/call some adds. 1/5 that summon something. I can't call him a pet-battle user however. In his story, he never summon anything.
-Seven DH / plot: Feronas Sindweller. Quest giver created in cata. No Pet-battle system. He kills demons and nothing more.

So, I can assume that DH are a melee class that don't have any pet-battle system related. Of course, If Blizzard want, they can turn them in a summoner-fighter, but they never gave them this system and this thematic.

So either Blizzard create a very different Demon Hunter class that bears little if any resemblence to the existing model (making the entire exercise of developing a class to cater to players who want a DH totally null and void) or it creates a class which shares a large degree of overlap in both toolkit and theme with Warlocks, which will cause Warlocks to be angry at the DHs for stepping on their territory and DHs to be angry for not developing a unique class identity.

Which of these two options strikes you as viable?

For me...the answer is neither. Blizzard gains nothing by labelling an entirely new class with no in game history "Demon Hunters" and it is likely to actively avoid ticking off players by designing a class so alike in theme and feel to an existing system. Once we add in that DHs don't bring anything new to the game, that their theme and niche is already filled, and that there are other options Blizzard can explore instead, DHs as a standalone class seem very unlikely.

If you create a DH, you create all new forms/skills/physics from 0. Look at monks and DKs. They use a completely new mechanics than before, new models (or animations) in all skills, new icons and new rotation. So we can assume that DH should be like them. If they want to implement a demon-form, they need to create a new one. And talking about DH vs warlocks, well I can talk what happened before:
I'm a shaman, and my main signature was Blood Lust since WC3. What happened to my main signature? They gave to pet and to mage class. And talking about themes, again, I never saw a Paladin healer calling that Holy priest had been steeling their flavor or vice versa. Warlocks have demon-abilitys and they uses curses and pet-battle system to be different than other casters. A new melee character can be different from others melees using demonic powers. I never view them like a warlock class. I only see a similarity when all 2 are in demon form, then yes, we can assume that this two classes have a demonic them behind their backs.

Because you are trying to compare the identity of one class with another even though the themes for both are based upon different criteria. The origin of the them isn't important....just that it exists.

Or are you going to try and tell me the Warlock is NOT strongly identified with demons in WoW?

Warlocks: Theme Demonic/fel energy users. Class type Casters. Summoners. Dot users. Ranged.
Demon Hinters: Theme Demonic/fel energy users/agility assassins. Class type Fighters. Caster-counters. Melee
Paladins: Theme Holy energy users. Class type Knights/casters. Melees. Ranged healer.
Priests: Theme Holy energy users. Class type Ranged Casters. Ranged healers.

So, what's more "overlapped"? The thematic is about what type of "things" they throw or use, the class type is their function.

Glyph of Demon Hunting (the tank glyph) turns warlock's Shadow Bolt into some kind of a melee attack with several stacks, as far as i remember?
That right there is your "melee capability" in Demo warlocks, as far as blizzard is concerned.

I'm not sure if you read the entire post. DH don't have wings/horns/hoofs. They fight melee, are blind and have tatoos. A big demon that goes melee is not a DH, it's a possible form for one of their CDs/utility skills. And I'm not sure that people know that metamorfosis is a "panic button", not the entire class. Better say that rogues are DH, just buy some dagger with "change on hit" that throw something black demon-related, that's better suited for a DH...

[Teriz]

Having played the actual spec, I can tell you straight up you forgot critical stuff on the nature side: lightning shield, lighting bolt, chain lightning, earth shock, spirit wolves.

Not that it matters, because a DH would also have non-fire spells in its arsenal as well.

Searing flames is a stacking buff, akin to Maelstrom Weapon, which is a major class mechanic and keeps Lightning Bolt among enhancement's top damage abilities.

I've played the spec over the last four expansions. I understand basic mechanics and theme. It's not "fire-melee" like I was suggesting, it's more of an "elemental warrior". Looking at 25H parses for some of the top shaman in the world, fire appears to make about a third of their total damage, including the elemental pet.

Again, a Demon Hunter DPS spec would have an entirely fire-based spell book either.

So to recap: not at all what I imagine a DH Immolation spec. Think searing skin, burning ground, and fiery embers everywhere.

Of course its not what you imagine. That doesn't change the fact that fire-based melee is a major portion of Enhancement Shaman's DPS. So its already in the game.

[rarhyx]

Again, a Demon Hunter DPS spec would have an entirely fire-based spell book either.

yeah, like unholy Dk will use int plate and become the ranged plate spec

That right there is your "melee capability" in Demo warlocks, as far as blizzard is concerned.

To bad you can't use DA in a raid/dungeon because of 500% threat generation.

[Jessicka]

Not that it matters, because a DH would also have non-fire spells in its arsenal as well.

Again, a Demon Hunter DPS spec would have an entirely fire-based spell book either.

Of course its not what you imagine. That doesn't change the fact that fire-based melee is a major portion of Enhancement Shaman's DPS. So its already in the game.

Yeah, I can pretty much envisage DH using a combination of Fire, Shadow, Arcane and Physical attacks. How is this important though? Loads of classes overlap their damage types, it's like saying we can't have Fire Mages because Destruction Warlocks, or Shadow Priests because Affliction Warlocks, or Balance Druids because Elemental Shaman.

[Teriz]

Yeah, I can pretty much envisage DH using a combination of Fire, Shadow, Arcane and Physical attacks. How is this important though? Loads of classes overlap their damage types, it's like saying we can't have Fire Mages because Destruction Warlocks, or Shadow Priests because Affliction Warlocks, or Balance Druids because Elemental Shaman.

There's more flexibility with casters than melee. Designers have multiple ways to do ranged magic spells. There's only so many ways you can do a spell-based melee spec. Heck, Frost DKs and Enhancement utilize different spell types and people still feel that Enhance and Frost DK are very similar to each other.

[brirrspliff]

I'm not trying to be funny, if you're smart enough, you'll see the same thing I see.
Blizzard will probably just continue this way with Demonology, for it is the "unofficial" Demon Hunter class.

you think you're really smart, eh? this really IS funny, but your conclusion has nothing to do with intelligence. it's just your personal opinion and very vague.

[Jessicka]

There's more flexibility with casters than melee. Designers have multiple ways to do ranged magic spells. There's only so many ways you can do a spell-based melee spec. Heck, Frost DKs and Enhancement utilize different spell types and people still feel that Enhance and Frost DK are very similar to each other.

Okay, what about Warriors or Rogues against a backdrop of Bear and Cat Druids? Or just Warriors against Rogues, both are physical and use Bleeds. Or even Rogues against UH DKs, since both use Shadow damage? All actually play markedly differently to eachother thanks broadly to their different resource mechanics.

And for the record, I've never in my life seen anyone compare an Enhancement Shaman with a Frost DK and come to a conclusion of any basis of similarity.

[Teriz]

Okay, what about Warriors or Rogues against a backdrop of Bear and Cat Druids? Or just Warriors against Rogues, both are physical and use Bleeds. Or even Rogues against UH DKs, since both use Shadow damage? All actually play markedly differently to eachother thanks broadly to their different resource mechanics.

Rogues are different because they use stealth, bleeds, and stuns. Warriors charge in and smash your face. Very different thematic. Unholy is completely different from Rogues because they spread diseases, utilize pets. and can fire off spells, even though both are shadow-based.

My point is, a Demon Hunter is going to need 3 specs that are different than every other spell melee out there. I don't think you could pull that off. Enhancement and the DKs are the big ones in that case, because they corner the market on DWing spell melee, and those two are already very close.

And for the record, I've never in my life seen anyone compare an Enhancement Shaman with a Frost DK and come to a conclusion of any basis of similarity.

Google it. Enhance and Frost DKs are compared to each other constantly.

[rarhyx]

Heck, Frost DKs and Enhancement utilize different spell types and people still feel that Enhance and Frost DK are very similar to each other.

No. Not at all.
Atleast not for me.

[Jessicka]

Rogues are different because they use stealth, bleeds, and stuns. Warriors charge in and smash your face using bleeds and stuns. Very different thematic. Unholy is completely different from Rogues because they spread diseases, utilize pets. and can fire off spells, even though both are shadow-based.

My point is, a Demon Hunter is going to need 3 specs that are different than every other spell melee out there. I don't think you could pull that off. Enhancement and the DKs are the big ones in that case, because they corner the market on DWing spell melee, and those two are already very close.

Google it. Enhance and Frost DKs are compared to each other constantly.

Just fixed your quote a bit there. Even so, having played Frost since DKs came into the game, and moving to Enhancement in the last expansion because I like the idea of spell melee, but Frost just wasn't 'spelly' enough, I can pretty safely say that those specs feel and play nothing a like. Again, this is due to their resource models.

You not being able to "think" about a manner of defining DHs doesn't mean others could not either. Tank and Melee DPS are two specs already, you only need a third, likely ranged, but whether that's caster or based on an Elven heritage for ranged weapons is still very much wide open. Just needs some new lore and an NPC to 'follow' like Koltira or Thasaurian.

[Teriz]

Just fixed your quote a bit there. Even so, having played Frost since DKs came into the game, and moving to Enhancement in the last expansion because I like the idea of spell melee, but Frost just wasn't 'spelly' enough, I can pretty safely say that those specs feel and play nothing a like. Again, this is due to their resource models.

You not being able to "think" about a manner of defining DHs doesn't mean others could not either. Tank and Melee DPS are two specs already, you only need a third, likely ranged, but whether that's caster or based on an Elven heritage for ranged weapons is still very much wide open. Just needs some new lore and an NPC to 'follow' like Koltira or Thasaurian.

Yeah, anyone can come up with some crackpot way of getting a DH to work in the game. I don't think anyone said that a playable DH is impossible, it certainly isn't. I believe the argument has always been that they're already in the game in a sense. The problem is that Blizzard's interpretation of a playable DH (or some approximation to it) isn't satisfactory to a lot of people, who wanted a melee fighter that uses demonic magic. Unfortunately for them, that was never Blizzard's goal in the first place.