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  1. #361
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    Grouping Must be Encouraged and Soloing Must be Discouraged.
    Stopped reading there.

  2. #362
    Quote Originally Posted by Nyxxi View Post
    I can see it now:

    Guild A sits in front of second to last boss of a raid dungeon and waits for Guild B to come and tag it, Guild A then bypasses the now occupied 2nd to last boss and proceeds straight to the final boss while Guild B rages.
    This plays into the whole "player drama and conflict is good" idea. Good as a source of amusement for the bystander, maybe. Not so good for the long-term health of a game, in my opinion.

  3. #363
    Many of you are taking the points made in OP and comparing them with how Blizzard handles it, there is other effective ways isnt there? Perhaps there is better ways (or not) but fuck it, lets not talk about it.

  4. #364
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    This plays into the whole "player drama and conflict is good" idea. Good as a source of amusement for the bystander, maybe. Not so good for the long-term health of a game, in my opinion.
    It's actually very good for the health of an MMO, if done correctly. 3 elements need to be present however: the capacity for your in-game reputation to actually matter (ie, no name changes, etc), the capacity to actually grief other players, and the capacity for the playerbase to actually police themselves in case someone decides to play the bad guy.

    Certainly it's not for everyone, but some very interesting things can and do happen when players are essentially allowed to essentially write their own story.

  5. #365
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    First of all, equating LFR to welfare is offensive to anyone who runs primarily runs LFR because that's all they have the time or schedule to do. It's really only welfare for those that go in and don't even try to do their best. Anyone else who goes in, gives it their best shot, and wins something is fine by me. The rewards aren't all that special and they don't drop all that often. The welfare leeches are the ones that AFK through the thing, collect their loot and then proudly post here and elsewhere about how terrible it all is.

    Secondly, there was no invitation to talk about other effective ways in the OP. It was presented as is and clearly stated that it was something that Blizzard devs should think about.

    I'll just reiterate that most of what is in the OP is not relevant to WoW historically or currently. Whatever that game is, it's not, never has been and never will be WoW. It's a different game entirely.

    If people want to talk about alternatives, then a presentation of some realistic alternatives that Blizzard might actually consider would be a start. So far I haven't seen a lot of it and there's a reason for that. The thread wasn't structured to encourage that. Bringing it up on page 19 is a little late.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  6. #366
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    It's actually very good for the health of an MMO, if done correctly. 3 elements need to be present however: the capacity for your in-game reputation to actually matter (ie, no name changes, etc), the capacity to actually grief other players, and the capacity for the playerbase to actually police themselves in case someone decides to play the bad guy.

    Certainly it's not for everyone, but some very interesting things can and do happen when players are essentially allowed to essentially write their own story.
    In the scenario to which I was responding, an entire guild was griefing another one. How is this good? One gang of bullies terrorizes the server until everyone quits and then the bullies, with no one left to terrorize, quit too because there's nothing left for them to do. That's how games die.

  7. #367
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    It's actually very good for the health of an MMO, if done correctly. 3 elements need to be present however: the capacity for your in-game reputation to actually matter (ie, no name changes, etc), the capacity to actually grief other players, and the capacity for the playerbase to actually police themselves in case someone decides to play the bad guy.

    Certainly it's not for everyone, but some very interesting things can and do happen when players are essentially allowed to essentially write their own story.
    The problem here is that I don't want to play police, I want to play, you know, a game. I don't want to wait around until a another group if players (if this happens) decides to stand up for themselves. What sounds like more fun, policing or actually playing a game? I understand that this can be fun for a lot of players, just not me. EVE online is a good game if you like what the opening brought up, but it isn't for me. I don't want to enter a game I like and be stressed out by trolls and the only way to deal with them is other players AND hope they are successful.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Theendgamelv3 View Post
    The problem here is that I don't want to play police, I want to play, you know, a game. I don't want to wait around until a another group if players (if this happens) decides to stand up for themselves.
    Exactly. I already have plenty of chances to play police with two adolescent daughters who can't seem to spend more than a couple of hours together without engaging in screaming matches and/or physical altercations. After dealing with that nonsense I don't want to log into a game to mediate even more disputes for a bunch of online children. Honestly most of the article's statements suggest that its author needs to spend more time outside of his house and among people. After spending over an hour driving to and from work the last thing I want in my virtual world is a virtual commute. If you want slow travel times I have two words for you: road trip.

  9. #369
    The Lightbringer Toxigen's Avatar
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    People are just too used to WoW now. Everything that comes out will be directly benchmarked against it.

    Anyone who played an MMO before WoW understands there are so many good possibilities out there. If you combined all of the best aspects of Asheron's Call / EQ / DAOC / UO and threw it on a current engine...you'd have a hell of a game.

    Let the dumbed-down masses continue with their theme-park where they get spoon fed and guided throughout. I want my fucking hardcore game to provide some form of challenge outside of "kill this over-tuned raid boss."

    - item drop on death (can cover your "good" items with expensive "death items", making pvp lucrative)
    - archer / mage projectiles able to be dodged with skill
    - no instances
    - massive world pvp
    - full character customization (see the asheron's call skill credit system, best in gaming history)
    - random loot, not item sets
    - dungeons specific to quests by the hundreds...you help guildies/friends get one quest item they need, then they help you
    - no AH, have a central "marketplace" where people sell their shit manually
    "There are two types of guys in this world. Guys who sniff their fingers after scratching their balls, and dirty fucking liars." -StylesClashv3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    Not finding-a-cock-on-your-girlfriend-is-normal level of odd, but nevertheless, still odd.

  10. #370
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    First of all, equating LFR to welfare is offensive to anyone who runs primarily runs LFR because that's all they have the time or schedule to do. It's really only welfare for those that go in and don't even try to do their best. Anyone else who goes in, gives it their best shot, and wins something is fine by me. The rewards aren't all that special and they don't drop all that often. The welfare leeches are the ones that AFK through the thing, collect their loot and then proudly post here and elsewhere about how terrible it all is.

    Secondly, there was no invitation to talk about other effective ways in the OP. It was presented as is and clearly stated that it was something that Blizzard devs should think about.

    I'll just reiterate that most of what is in the OP is not relevant to WoW historically or currently. Whatever that game is, it's not, never has been and never will be WoW. It's a different game entirely.

    If people want to talk about alternatives, then a presentation of some realistic alternatives that Blizzard might actually consider would be a start. So far I haven't seen a lot of it and there's a reason for that. The thread wasn't structured to encourage that. Bringing it up on page 19 is a little late.
    Comparing LFR to welfare is not that far off the mark though, to a certain degree. It is a form of social assistance provided by Blizzard for those who cannot do regular level content. The connotation can ruffle feathers but the comparison is sound. I have also said that LFR is not actual raiding in the past, the poll used backs up ( in a weak way admittedly, it was a forum poll) that LFR was considered "not raiding" by many.

    The original post itself was shown because i thought it had some interesting thoughts, some good, some not so good and some that are needing adjustment for todays market. Most threads may be structured for conversation and some are not, in most cases, people want to ram home their point but there usually is some great nuggets through out a thread....at times.

  11. #371
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    Many of you are taking the points made in OP and comparing them with how Blizzard handles it, there is other effective ways isnt there? Perhaps there is better ways (or not) but fuck it, lets not talk about it.
    If there is, there should be successful multi-million MMOs with which to compare. There isn't any, ergo those ways are not effective.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    I want my fucking hardcore game to provide some form of challenge outside of "kill this over-tuned raid boss."
    What YOU want is irrelevant. You're one potential consumer among millions, no one is gonna aim at pleasing you specifically (unless you're a millionaire).
    No one will develop a niche product for a tiny minority, unless they can poney up enough.
    MMO player
    WoW: 2006-2020 || EvE: 2013-2020 || FFXIV: 2020- || Lost Ark: 2022-

  12. #372
    No one will develop a niche product for a tiny minority, unless they can poney up enough.
    Thing is, no one knows what that next big thing is. The great unwashed public are a fickle group. I think it may be possible that there may be degree change where easy equates to boring and people want more of a challenge holistically rather than in one single area of the game.

    I think the democratic nature of gamers (including the casuals) will come back to earning their way.

  13. #373
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Let the dumbed-down masses continue with their theme-park where they get spoon fed and guided throughout. I want my fucking hardcore game to provide some form of challenge outside of "kill this over-tuned raid boss."
    That's great. And Blizzard is not going to be the company that gives you that fucking hardcore game. So why complain about it here?

    If I want great barbeque, I go to a restaurant that's known for great barbeque. I don't go to a fried chicken restaurant, demand great barbeque, and badger them about how much fried chicken sucks compared to barbeque.
    Last edited by SamR; 2013-08-02 at 08:43 PM.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    That's great. And Blizzard is not going to be the company that gives you that fucking hardcore game. So why complain about it here?

    If I want great barbeque, I go to a restaurant that's known for great barebeque. I don't go to a fried chicken restaurant, demand great barbeque, and badger them about how much fried chicken sucks compared to barbeque.
    What if you go to a restaurant that's known for great barebeque and then one day they just use the oven and just before they serve it to you...they smear it in bbq sauce. Would you comment on the way they now did the bbq? Where before they slow roasted it on an actual bbq.

  15. #375
    The Lightbringer Toxigen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SamR View Post
    That's great. And Blizzard is not going to be the company that gives you that fucking hardcore game. So why complain about it here?
    You must be new.

    This entire thread has been a discussion on what other potential lies out there beyond the WoW-esque theme park that spoon-feeds everything to its players.

    I'll repost this:

    "There are two types of guys in this world. Guys who sniff their fingers after scratching their balls, and dirty fucking liars." -StylesClashv3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    Not finding-a-cock-on-your-girlfriend-is-normal level of odd, but nevertheless, still odd.

  16. #376
    That video is very interesting, should watch it.

  17. #377
    Quote Originally Posted by Tomana View Post
    If there is, there should be successful multi-million MMOs with which to compare. There isn't any, ergo those ways are not effective.
    There might be if WoW didn't exist. Everybody started to make WoW clones and forgot about trying other things and being creative.

  18. #378
    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    What if you go to a restaurant that's known for great barebeque and then one day they just use the oven and just before they serve it to you...they smear it in bbq sauce. Would you comment on the way they now did the bbq? Where before they slow roasted it on an actual bbq.
    Um, if the barbeque started sucking, I'd just go to a different restaurant. I wouldn't set a picket outside their front door criticizing how bad their bbq has gotten and flaming patrons for being fanbois not able to see how much the bbq sucked now.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    This entire thread has been a discussion on what other potential lies out there beyond the WoW-esque theme park that spoon-feeds everything to its players.
    Potential? These game mechanics have been tried. And they failed miserably.

    The OP isn't full of new ideas that have never been tried in games before. Mostly rehashed ideas that have been tried in games that drove players away.

  19. #379
    Dark Souls/Demon Souls was a hit and each have a cult following. There is room and a market for a game like this in the MMO genre. However, it would probably not achieve the same status as an infinitely more casual-friendly game like WoW.

    That's not a bad thing.

    I think too many people are focused on the popularity of something, as if somehow accessibility and actual quality are the exact same thing.

  20. #380
    Herald of the Titans
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grogo View Post
    That video is very interesting, should watch it.
    Why does everyone who opens his mouth in or about an MMO have exactly the same awkward, nasal, over-carefully enunciated voice?

    I'm just saying, WTB real narrator some day.

    (This is also one of the reasons I really hate vent.)

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