A great write up that Blizzard should think about

[BHD]

I could write several paragraphs (as most of you can imagine) but I'll leave it at this: Many people who spend a lot of time here criticizing WoW both constructively and otherwise never much discuss fun. Their ideas and proposals are couched in language that evokes words like work, effort, respect and status. For them, the idea of playing a game simply because it's fun is mildly foreign and belongs to the realm of unserious gaming. The original post never mentions the word once and in 400+ posts I have yet to see a convincing argument made that the game described in post #1 would actually be fun to play. Theorycrafters and min-maxers have the same problem really. They bury themselves in abstruse numbers looking for 0.02% increases in damage/healing or they play classes they wouldn't play otherwise because they're optimal and efficient. Perhaps it's fun for them but I don't see it.

Isn't it obvious that people who talk about wanting games to be harder and that wants to min/max everything do it because that's what they think is fun? We talk about effort and work because that is what we think makes a game fun. We don't have to outright say the word "this is fun" when we say "we want a game where you need to put in a lot of effort to accomplish things", since we want things because we enjoy them. Or think we enjoy them.

Would you mind explaining what it means to play a game simply because it's fun? Angry Birds is about throwing animals at objects, if I do that and do not enjoy myself, but at the same time, I'm playing Dark Souls dying hundreds of times grinding my way slowly through the game and enjoying every minute of it, does that mean I don't play games because they're fun? What if I find challenge rewarding and fun and mind-numbing games with no real point to them to be extremely boring? Is my way of fun somehow the wrong way and should thus not count as fun at all?

[MoanaLisa]

I guess i would have to say that i agree with you in some ways. It can cut both ways and I get your point. That being said, welfare is meant for those at the bottom not at the middle. The middle class do not get social assistance unless of course they lose their job and qualify. Perhaps it was a piss poor analogy on my part but it seems to fit in a weird sort of way. I could go into a nice laundry list of why I do not like LFR but we have all heard what there is to say on that by now. it is not just LFR though, it everything. To sum up your response about welfare cutting both ways, it is something i will consider, at this point I will not say I feel you are wrong.

With the news coming out about Everquest Next recently, I think we might see a game changer in the near future which is trying to break out of the mold of the current MMO formula that everyone is currently copying and that Blizzard owns.

I'm interested in EQNext like most everyone else who pays attention to these things. Thanks for the response. It's greatly appreciated.

[Theendgamelv3]

That means that players didn't truly have means to do anything about the situation they were presented with, which is a flaw.



Then don't play it? Yes, that's the answer, as there are plenty of games that DO essentially shield players from one another in this sense. As I said, it's not for everyone.

I wouldn't, but the problem is that you stated that it is very good for the health of a MMO, so games like WoW are in poor health due to this? In fact a lot of games don't from what I know, are they too in poor health? I don't believe it is essential to have conflict such as you stated for a MMO to be in good health for the long haul. Again I don't see what is fun if a whole guild of jerks who happened to be really good players or in great numbers and troll on a server would be a great thing. Who could stand up to such players IF this was ever to happen, Goon Squad or Goon Fleet from the Something Awful was a good example of this. Like I said, I can see how this can be fun for some, but to state it is good for the long term health overall, no, to me it isn't essential.

[MoanaLisa]

What if I find challenge rewarding and fun and mind-numbing games with no real point to them to be extremely boring? Is my way of fun somehow the wrong way and should thus not count as fun at all?

From my post you quoted:

It's a big enough game to encompass all of those types of players though and I'm OK with that. If that's what they want to do that's fine as it doesn't affect me and isn't really any of my business anyway.

I thought it was clear that while I don't necessarily understand it or view it as my specific brand of fun, I wasn't criticizing it either. So maybe you didn't read all of it. The main point is not whether or not you're having fun but if you're one of those who think that because what you do is how you have fun it's fine to advocate eliminating stuff from the game that you do not find fun, never mind that others may be having a great time with LFR or pet battles to name a couple of examples. If you're not one of those then there's no problem.

[Pull My Finger]

Isn't it obvious that people who talk about wanting games to be harder and that wants to min/max everything do it because that's what they think is fun? We talk about effort and work because that is what we think makes a game fun. We don't have to outright say the word "this is fun" when we say "we want a game where you need to put in a lot of effort to accomplish things", since we want things because we enjoy them. Or think we enjoy them.

Would you mind explaining what it means to play a game simply because it's fun? Angry Birds is about throwing animals at objects, if I do that and do not enjoy myself, but at the same time, I'm playing Dark Souls dying hundreds of times grinding my way slowly through the game and enjoying every minute of it, does that mean I don't play games because they're fun? What if I find challenge rewarding and fun and mind-numbing games with no real point to them to be extremely boring? Is my way of fun somehow the wrong way and should thus not count as fun at all?

Let's put it this way: it's pretty strange how you guys find "fun" in being constantly uptight. Your idea of fun has a lot to do with seriousness, struggle and penalization. Which is a little whacky, considering the fact that we're talking of nothing more than video games, you gotta admit. That's OK, but what isn't is the judgemental attitude that comes with it. You guys are pissed all the time and you're constantly having issues with something you claim is "fun" to you. And you're constantly holding grudges. Is hating people, wishing them away, or demanding the removal of content that is irrelevant to you, but interesting to them, also "fun"? That's pretty weird, and doesn't look much like fun on the outside.

[HeedmySpeed]

I wouldn't, but the problem is that you stated that it is very good for the health of a MMO, so games like WoW are in poor health due to this? In fact a lot of games don't from what I know, are they too in poor health? I don't believe it is essential to have conflict such as you stated for a MMO to be in good health for the long haul. Again I don't see what is fun if a whole guild of jerks who happened to be really good players or in great numbers and troll on a server would be a great thing. Who could stand up to such players IF this was ever to happen, Goon Squad or Goon Fleet from the Something Awful was a good example of this. Like I said, I can see how this can be fun for some, but to state it is good for the long term health overall, no, to me it isn't essential.

A movie with no conflict isn't worth watching.
It's about overcoming adversity that makes anything great.

That kind of player to player interaction makes for a unique experience that is difficult to recreate in other games.
What if you could form your own factions. Take over lands in Azeroth, take over keeps and fortresses?
All while monsters (NPCs) threaten everyone.

It'd be great for players who just want to cause destruction and for the white knights who want to play hero and put a stop to them.

I'd like to see a game like that and see some elements in WoW be like that but yeah, of course it might not be popular if you went too far with it.

[MoanaLisa]

Let's put it this way: it's pretty strange how you guys find "fun" in being constantly uptight. Your idea of fun has a lot to do with seriousness, struggle and penalization. Which is a little whacky, considering the fact that we're talking of nothing more than video games, you gotta admit. That's OK, but what isn't is the judgemental attitude that comes with it. You guys are pissed all the time and you're constantly having issues with something you claim is "fun" to you. And you're constantly holding grudges. Is hating people, wishing them away, or demanding the removal of content that is irrelevant to you, but interesting to them, also "fun"? That's pretty weird, and doesn't look much like fun on the outside.

Well, hell, take the very first point in the article in the top post: Harsh Death Penalty and Corpse Runs.

OK. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me and it must be important since it's the very first point made. We apparently we need harsh penalties to have fun. Really? All of us?

[CptAwesome]

I wouldn't, but the problem is that you stated that it is very good for the health of a MMO, so games like WoW are in poor health due to this? In fact a lot of games don't from what I know, are they too in poor health? I don't believe it is essential to have conflict such as you stated for a MMO to be in good health for the long haul. Again I don't see what is fun if a whole guild of jerks who happened to be really good players or in great numbers and troll on a server would be a great thing. Who could stand up to such players IF this was ever to happen, Goon Squad or Goon Fleet from the Something Awful was a good example of this. Like I said, I can see how this can be fun for some, but to state it is good for the long term health overall, no, to me it isn't essential.

We used to have regular (nightly) battles with Goon Squad's European spin-off back in the day, it was great fun. Blackrock Mountain was a far better battleground than AV ever was, more people in there too. When there's over a hundred people fighting over a balcony it doesn't matter if you're in Goon Squad (or Ye Olde Goone Squad) you still get hammered like the next guy. That's one aspect of vanilla I would love to have back, actual world PvP.

I posted earlier saying how stupid the OP is but not everything from back then was a bad thing. I just don't see why we need to go right to EQ1 when vanilla/TBC seemed to hit a sweet spot in terms of hardcore vs casual.

[spectrefax]

Well, hell, take the very first point in the article in the top post: Harsh Death Penalty and Corpse Runs.

OK. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me and it must be important since it's the very first point made. We apparently we need harsh penalties to have fun. Really? All of us?

It's not about the specific penalties, themselves, it's about the overall sense of immersion they create. Convenience features kill, absolutely murder immersion. If you've never played EQ Classic or a similar game, you simply won't understand. The different between the life-enveloping experience of a truly immersive MMORPG and a convenience riddled MMORPG is like comparing apples to a jumbo jet - they simply have nothing in common.

[BHD]

From my post you quoted:


I thought it was clear that while I don't necessarily understand it or view it as my specific brand of fun, I wasn't criticizing it either. So maybe you didn't read all of it. The main point is not whether or not you're having fun but if you're one of those who think that because what you do is how you have fun it's fine to advocate eliminating stuff from the game that you do not find fun, never mind that others may be having a great time with LFR or pet battles to name a couple of examples. If you're not one of those then there's no problem.

I got some mixed signals from the first and second part of your post, but thank you for clarifying that. Maybe it's just that it's 02.25 am over here.

I'm not the kind who wishes to remove parts I don't find fun from a game, or at least not in WoW. This game tries very clearly to fit every kind of gamer, so trying to force my own opinions of what should and shouldn't be in it would be folly. I don't even play WoW very actively anymore, but I'd love to get into a new game that is of the kind we've been talking about in this thread.

Let's put it this way: it's pretty strange how you guys find "fun" in being constantly uptight. Your idea of fun has a lot to do with seriousness, struggle and penalization. Which is a little whacky, considering the fact that we're talking of nothing more than video games, you gotta admit. That's OK, but what isn't is the judgemental attitude that comes with it. You guys are pissed all the time and you're constantly having issues with something you claim is "fun" to you. And you're constantly holding grudges. Is hating people, wishing them away, or demanding the removal of content that is irrelevant to you, but interesting to them, also "fun"? That's pretty weird, and doesn't look much like fun on the outside.

You seem to be stereotyping quite a bit. I was once a raider in WoW, now I only do content solo, and I love battle pets. Just because you've met a lot of elitists doesn't mean everyone who enjoys more challenging games are uptight assholes hating on everyone.

Is it really that strange that some gamers enjoy playing a game that gives a sense of achievement? Take rock climbing for example, at first you might like to climb whatever mountain or hill that you have access to, but later on you might want to try higher mountains, more dangerous places, and before you know it you're making plans to climb Mount Everest. But why would you do that? You could die! It's because pushing yourself is something people find fun, but probably in different areas of our lives. I rarely push myself in anything I do outdoors, so I do it in games.

Well, hell, take the very first point in the article in the top post: Harsh Death Penalty and Corpse Runs.

OK. Doesn't sound like a lot of fun to me and it must be important since it's the very first point made. We apparently we need harsh penalties to have fun. Really? All of us?

A game featuring very penalizing deaths probably shouldn't let you choose if you want it the easy or the hard way ^^ But a game with harsh death penalties should only be played by people who are into that anyway (why play a game you *know* you won't like!), and it absolutely shouldn't suddenly be implemented in a game where it doesn't belong, like WoW.

[Grogo]

A harsher death penalty could be numerous things.

Some options, good and bad, depending on the player:

1. a loss of gold / repair cost

2. Run back - time

3. Loss of experience/level experience

4. A prestige gauge bar - public to all - could be done a million ways (ie- shows prestige (kills*deaths*pvp*etc)

5. Stat penalty of some sort - + / -

6. A combination of all above

7. Suggestions ????

[melodramocracy]

Many people who spend a lot of time here criticizing WoW both constructively and otherwise never much discuss fun. Their ideas and proposals are couched in language that evokes words like work, effort, respect and status. For them, the idea of playing a game simply because it's fun is mildly foreign and belongs to the realm of unserious gaming.

Because for some folks, those traits actually equate to fun. I'd actually argue that very few WoW players think the actual core game itself is fun at all, and instead the only sense of joy is brought to them via gear acquisition.... everything else is tedium or a chore, which should systematically be eliminated for the sake of 'lets just get to the fun stuff'. And a quick perusal around this sub forum reinforces that.

The original post never mentions the word once and in 400+ posts I have yet to see a convincing argument made that the game described in post #1 would actually be fun to play.

There have been plenty of games in the past that had rather interesting dp's, though some are probably a bit too heavy handed. All your statement points out is that you've never tried one of these games out yourself, and / or that you're simply not open to listening to the fairly obvious argument that not wanting to die in a videogame brings about a heightened danger element, which in turn makes all your actions a bit more meaningful. For an easily accessible modern example, compare a game of D3 hardcore mode vs normal mode. Granted, D3's death penalty is certainly more extreme than any MMO should offer... and again, such game elements aren't for everyone.

Theorycrafters and min-maxers have the same problem really. They bury themselves in abstruse numbers looking for 0.02% increases in damage/healing or they play classes they wouldn't play otherwise because they're optimal and efficient. Perhaps it's fun for them but I don't see it.

Players will generally take the easiest route to victory, which means attempting to make their characters as powerful as possible. (or using any number of add-ons, etc). Blizzard actually exacerbates this mentality by how they design encounters. You find similar traits in any online game where distributed stats can be used.

[MoanaLisa]

There have been plenty of games in the past that had rather interesting dp's, though some are probably a bit too heavy handed. All your statement points out is that you've never tried one of these games out yourself, and / or that you're simply not open to listening to the fairly obvious argument that not wanting to die in a videogame brings about a heightened danger element, which in turn makes all your actions a bit more meaningful. For an easily accessible modern example, compare a game of D3 hardcore mode vs normal mode. Granted, D3's death penalty is certainly more extreme than any MMO should offer... and again, such game elements aren't for everyone.

I play D3 pretty much only on HC myself so I'm not unaware. Probably lost in all the words of the posts I've made this afternoon is the context. These things are fine in their place but my personal belief, within the context of this thread, is that WoW is not that place. There are too many players of widely differing skill levels and largely because death has become cheap, inserting that into the game at this point, will cause many more problems than it solves. Even with something like LFR, I'm not willing to subject myself to a huge death penalty simply because some troll pulls the boss for fun. There's dozens of examples like that in the game and that's primarily why so much of the original post is unsuitable for WoW.

I think an MMO created around those principles would be fine and I'd play it. I'd pay to play it actually. If anyone is thinking that because I'm self-described as casual that I can't play they they've fallen into the classic trap of confusing casual and bad. WoW simply isn't the place for it since it was pretty much created in opposition to most of those principles. People come to WoW for a certain experience and I believe for the most part that doesn't include killing 10 boars in Westfall as a constant life-and-death struggle. Harsher consequences can be a good thing within the context of a game that overall teaches you to be more careful. That's not the game we're discussing here.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I also think that GC's emphasis on numbers and reliance on theorycrafting has sucked some of the life out of the game as has "Bring the player, not the class" which has led to too much homogenization. That's not strictly on-topic but it's part of a piece with how different people perceive games as fun, interesting or challenging.

@BadHairDay: Not a problem. I learned a while ago to mostly stop responding to forum posts after 1:00 a.m. because...well, it's not my best time of the day

[Ronduwil]

Isn't it obvious that people who talk about wanting games to be harder and that wants to min/max everything do it because that's what they think is fun? We talk about effort and work because that is what we think makes a game fun. We don't have to outright say the word "this is fun" when we say "we want a game where you need to put in a lot of effort to accomplish things", since we want things because we enjoy them. Or think we enjoy them.

Only when they talk about aspects of the game that apply specifically to them. For example,

• Reasonable statement -- Ra-den is a push over. I wish Blizzard hadn't made the fight so anti-climactic.
• Unreasonable statement -- Why are casuals given epics in LFR???? LFR should drop no loot and be to see content only. Casual progression should consist of grinding dailies for blue gear because Blizzard caving to their entitled demands for ez-mode welfare epics devalued my raiding experience.

Do you see what I mean? The first example features a player complaining about their personal experience with an encounter and how they felt about it. The second complaint is a hypocritical rant about other players getting to enjoy the game too. Those players are not concerned with fun because if they were they'd be more than happy to raid heroics for exclusive achievements and better epics. Their focus is on feeling like they've worked hard to reap the rewards, respect, and status that comes with heroic raiding. Somehow other players having fun prevents them from experiencing that. Unfortunately that latter attitude is pretty common on these boards.

Would you mind explaining what it means to play a game simply because it's fun? Angry Birds is about throwing animals at objects, if I do that and do not enjoy myself, but at the same time, I'm playing Dark Souls dying hundreds of times grinding my way slowly through the game and enjoying every minute of it, does that mean I don't play games because they're fun? What if I find challenge rewarding and fun and mind-numbing games with no real point to them to be extremely boring? Is my way of fun somehow the wrong way and should thus not count as fun at all?

Only you can determine what's fun for you. If you enjoy grinding your way through a hardcore MMO like that, then by all means play it. Don't make the mistake, however, of assuming that everyone else enjoys that too. Don't pretend like you're a "true" or "superior" MMO gamer just because you enjoy dying every five minutes and enduring 20 minute corpse runs on top of that. Most importantly, don't suggest that your unpopular idea of fun be inflicted on everyone else just because you think it would be fun to watch. Such suggestions will never be taken seriously.

[Xeraxis]

It's not about the specific penalties, themselves, it's about the overall sense of immersion they create. Convenience features kill, absolutely murder immersion. If you've never played EQ Classic or a similar game, you simply won't understand. The different between the life-enveloping experience of a truly immersive MMORPG and a convenience riddled MMORPG is like comparing apples to a jumbo jet - they simply have nothing in common.

I'm sorry but if one of the high points for you from EQ was corpse runs we must not have played the same game. You can have immersion and convenience they are not mutually exclusive as you seem to believe they are.

[spectrefax]

I'm sorry but if one of the high points for you from EQ was corpse runs we must not have played the same game. You can have immersion and convenience they are not mutually exclusive as you seem to believe they are.

People have different preferences, I'm not a fan of games with WoW's "here's everything on a platter" play-style. I actually did enjoy the fact that if you died in EQ you were heavily penalized and even de-leveled, and may even have to get aid to retrieve your corpse or suffer it rotting before you could get to it.

[Xeraxis]

People have different preferences, I'm not a fan of games with WoW's "here's everything on a platter" play-style. I actually did enjoy the fact that if you died in EQ you were heavily penalized and even de-leveled, and may even have to get aid to retrieve your corpse or suffer it rotting before you could get to it.

Ah the sweet scent of someone so entrenched in nostalgia. Let me guess you also loved having to wait a week because another guild hopped in front of yours for their PoF clear.

[melodramocracy]

I wouldn't, but the problem is that you stated that it is very good for the health of a MMO, so games like WoW are in poor health due to this? In fact a lot of games don't from what I know, are they too in poor health? I don't believe it is essential to have conflict such as you stated for a MMO to be in good health for the long haul. Again I don't see what is fun if a whole guild of jerks who happened to be really good players or in great numbers and troll on a server would be a great thing. Who could stand up to such players IF this was ever to happen, Goon Squad or Goon Fleet from the Something Awful was a good example of this. Like I said, I can see how this can be fun for some, but to state it is good for the long term health overall, no, to me it isn't essential.

I'd wager that most, if not all events in WoW's history that eventually grow to notorious or memorable status were due to direct interaction of one player to another, rather than one player, or a group of players, in a PvE encounter.

-Leroy Jenkins.
-the pvp raid on the funeral.
-that rogue who used to kill folks @ a choke point in one of the zones.
-the infamous 'moar dots' raid leader.

I'm sure I'm missing many others. I'll say that how people interact with each other is what draws folks to play MMO's to begin with, and often there's bad mixed in with the good. Steps that continually get taken to shield players from potentially bad behavior, you not only wind up presenting a game with few(er) strengths on its own, but you also wind up conditioning your playerbase, over time, to be increasingly intolerant of the behavior of others.

That's not meant to be a slight, it's just a pretty clear observation. Many of the acts that get called 'griefing' in this game are absolutely trivial compared to what players can do in other games. Or even what players used to be able to do in this games own history.

When you apply increased amounts of player to player isolation, you wind up weakening one of the biggest draws of the genre. And whether your game is sub based or not, that isn't a good place for an MMO to be in.

[Theendgamelv3]

A movie with no conflict isn't worth watching.
It's about overcoming adversity that makes anything great.

That kind of player to player interaction makes for a unique experience that is difficult to recreate in other games.
What if you could form your own factions. Take over lands in Azeroth, take over keeps and fortresses?
All while monsters (NPCs) threaten everyone.

It'd be great for players who just want to cause destruction and for the white knights who want to play hero and put a stop to them.

I'd like to see a game like that and see some elements in WoW be like that but yeah, of course it might not be popular if you went too far with it.

Yea sure it creates great things for the people who can do something or who are in the side with power. What to me you are talking about is basically world pvp with capture points. It isn't very fun for those who keep being beaten down and have to pick sides. Player conflict is fine and dandy and it is still in WoW, to a point. Even Vanilla WoW where people go "OMG WORLD PVP WAS AWSOME!" and WoW wasn't a sandbox MMO back then.

I'd wager that most, if not all events in WoW's history that eventually grow to notorious or memorable status were due to direct interaction of one player to another, rather than one player, or a group of players, in a PvE encounter.

-Leroy Jenkins.
-the pvp raid on the funeral.
-that rogue who used to kill folks @ a choke point in one of the zones.
-the infamous 'moar dots' raid leader.

I'm sure I'm missing many others. I'll say that how people interact with each other is what draws folks to play MMO's to begin with, and often there's bad mixed in with the good. Steps that continually get taken to shield players from potentially bad behavior, you not only wind up presenting a game with few(er) strengths on its own, but you also wind up conditioning your playerbase, over time, to be increasingly intolerant of the behavior of others.

That's not meant to be a slight, it's just a pretty clear observation. Many of the acts that get called 'griefing' in this game are absolutely trivial compared to what players can do in other games. Or even what players used to be able to do in this games own history.

When you apply increased amounts of player to player isolation, you wind up weakening one of the biggest draws of the genre. And whether your game is sub based or not, that isn't a good place for an MMO to be in.

Ok everything you mentioned, you can still do in WoW right now. You talk about shielding people from bad behavior. If someone ninja'd and stuff back in the day they were put on a black list and not to be played with, so I wouldn't play with them. Today If someone ninja'd, I just put them on ignore to make sure I don't play with them again. No difference here for me. There is still potential to grief players on WoW like starting a raid group, put it on master looter and ninja a rare mount if it drops if no rules were stated. You can have good amount of player interaction while shielding them from bad behavior. None of what you listed, I would consider griefing or something that breaks the rules, but are yet very memorable and on top of it all, people in general didn't NEED to play police if they don't have to and played the game fine and experienced stuff.

[Vulcanasm]

I did some checking into information about EQ next, official previews and all. The linked article doesn't even match known EQnext information. It's just an impassioned plea for Brad McQuaid to remake Vanguard: SOH.

As they say: that ship has sailed. Given that the most well-promoted hardcore grindfest didn't break 200,000 peak subscribers, and that the most-well promoted of those throwbacks was Vanguard, I sincerely doubt he (or Sony) need to listen.