Do you think Greg "Ghostcrawler" Street will lose his position ?

[Akka]

You never can know for sure but there is one big compelling piece of evidence you're ignoring.

=>

I can contradict your evidence by pointing that Rift is a different game, so it has in itself a lot more reason why to people wouldn't like to play it (I didn't, and I'm sold on TBC design for example).

The same thing can be said for SWTOR.
Actually considering how casual SWTOR was it actually, funilly enough, can be used for the opposite of your argument.

And thinking even for a second that something like TBC would work today as an viable business is epic stupidity.

The only epically stupid one, is the one who think he has some supernatural knowledge while he's just as ignorant as everyone else.

[Marxman]

As for is MoP a flop. Of course it is, it's losing subs.

The game is almost 9 years old. It would be unbelievable if it wasn't losing subs at this point. The game has always been bleeding subs, but in the past that was replaced by new players coming in. At this point, almost everyone who has wanted to try WoW has tried it. That's why new subs have run dry and sub numbers are dropping. If you're losing the same amount, but not really gaining anymore, your numbers go down. Simple math.

I think GC does at least a decent job, if not a good job. WoW is huge. It has probably the most diverse player-base of any game on Earth. It's pretty much impossible to cater to all of them, which is why we see these changes in philosophy every few years with WoW. Not everyone is going to be happy with the direction of the game, regardless of what direction that is. Hence the sub losses.

The only thing I really think they need to do better is numbers tuning in between patches. There is really zero excuse for leaving certain specs (or even whole classes. See: PvE Warriors right now) out in the cold. Hotfix number tuning should be a LOT more common than it is. I completely understand not wanting to change rotations or mechanics in-between patches, but number tuning is quite easy and painless, so I don't see why it isn't commonplace.

[vesseblah]

The only epically stupid one, is the one who think he has some supernatural knowledge while he's just as ignorant as everyone else.

Hardcore games are niche today. Sure there are things like EVE but if WoW was still stuck in vanilla/TBC mentality today it would share EVEs 500k subs in the same hardcore niche.

There's no supernatural knowledge, only common sense which seems to be pretty uncommon on this forum. You too would do whole lot better in life learning some.

The same thing can be said for SWTOR.
Actually considering how casual SWTOR was it actually, funilly enough, can be used for the opposite of your argument.

You seemed to have missed the point by a planet or two, so let me recap:

Star Wars franchise had an existing fanbase hundred times bigger than Warcraft, developed by BioWare who had previous sold millions and considered to be infallible, so common sense says they should have done much better they did. Since it failed even with the usual BW level content, common sense would say that the business model does not work even when mediocre BW games like ME3 or DA2 sold as well as they did.

[Akka]

Hardcore games are niche today. Sure there are things like EVE but if WoW was still stuck in vanilla/TBC mentality today it would share EVEs 500k subs in the same hardcore niche.

You don't have any way of actually knowing this, except probably that you simply want it to be true.

There's no supernatural knowledge, only common sense which seems to be pretty uncommon on this forum. You too would do whole lot better in life learning some.

Don't worry, I'm far to be in as much need of common sense than you are in humility.

You seemed to have missed the point by a planet or two, so let me recap:

Star Wars franchise had an existing fanbase hundred times bigger than Warcraft, developed by BioWare who had previous sold millions and considered to be infallible, so common sense says they should have done much better they did. Since it failed even with the usual BW level content, common sense would say that the business model does not work even when mediocre BW games like ME3 or DA2 sold as well as they did.

Common sense would indicate that if the fanbase was so big and so eager to play game related to Star Wars, then we would have seen every SW game up to now making huge sales.
But fact is, despite doing rather good on average, they were rarely (never ?) huge success.
So common sense tells us that the game probably didn't had that much on an advantage.
Also, even more common sense claims that your reasoning is incredibly simplistic, as you reduce the incredibly numerous and complex reasons why a game is a success or not to a handful of parameters.

[Celista]

The game is almost 9 years old. It would be unbelievable if it wasn't losing subs at this point. The game has always been bleeding subs, but in the past that was replaced by new players coming in. At this point, almost everyone who has wanted to try WoW has tried it. That's why new subs have run dry and sub numbers are dropping. If you're losing the same amount, but not really gaining anymore, your numbers go down. Simple math.

This is faulty logic. There is absolutely no reason why WoW couldn't have kept 12mil+ subs for the next 10 or 20 years. People are still playing mmos; there's an MMO with more than 20 million players in the East atm. Why couldn't WoW have been that MMO? Look at a company like Apple, who reinvented itself after dominating the market in the 80s/90s and today remains a leading supplier of computers, along with ipads and ipods and tablets,etc.

Bottom line is that WoW is losing subs because it failed to adapt itself to a changing market. So now that competitors are here offering other genres of games to play/other MMOs, people are choosing to play those games instead.

Blizzard could still make a comeback and turn around the subscription loss, but they're going to have to innovate/change things up a lot for that to happen.

[cFortyfive]

This is faulty logic. There is absolutely no reason why WoW couldn't have kept 12mil+ subs for the next 10 or 20 years. People are still playing mmos; there's an MMO with more than 20 million players in the East atm.

In the east probably. Not in the west which is the market Blizzard focuses on.

[spekkiebig]

There is just more competition from f2play/pay2win pvp mmo's, that will ofc draw some of the bottom line from wow (especially in asia) but that, combined with the inevitable fatigue that hits players when they do something for too long is the most likely reason for the decline.
The game is arguably a lot better now, its less about silly useless timesinks (grinds), there is more to do and its definitly more complex in a lot of ways then before, if that doesn't attrack new players then its unlikely anything else will.
Firing someone who makes the tough decisions won't make a difference, I dont always agree with mr Street but I think he's doing an ok job in hard cicumstances.

[jax]

Will he be? Doubtful.
Should he be? Absolutely.

The game has seen a huge decline under his watch.

You can and I see are arguing that he is not solely responsible and true it may have lost people anyway cause of age etc... but those are not the points and do not matter. Someone has to take hit for the free fall the game is in and he has been put out there as the front man.
Either by his own doing or by Blizzard, GC is "the man" and when you are "the man" you get the glory or you get the shit.

It does not help that he is a complete asshole and has no concept of customer service or how to talk to consumers. That IMO is Blizzard's fault, (that they didn't pick someone that knows even the most basic aspects of communication) and they have and are paying for it.

Its like a quarterback, he controls 1 aspect out of 30 of the game but if the team is loosing he takes 99% of the blame.

[Osmeric]

Will he be? Doubtful.
Should he be? Absolutely.

The game has seen a huge decline under his watch.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Its like a quarterback, he controls 1 aspect out of 30 of the game but if the team is loosing he takes 99% of the blame.

Good thing he isn't the quarterback, then.

[Pancaspe]

Ghostcrawler is my Hero. I LOVE him. Best thing that ever happened to the game.

[jax]

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Maybe you should stop looking up Latin terms and try a bit of reading comprehension. No where did I blame him and say... "therefore its his fault."
I said he was the front man and like all front men he is tied to the success or failure of the situation in question.

Good thing he isn't the quarterback, then.

No one said he was the quarterback... it was an analogy...

analogy [(uh- nal -uh-jee)]

A comparison of two different things that are alike in some way.

See how that works... again spend more time in English class instead of looking up old terms to appear smart and you may have figured it out.
Different: Lead designer and quarterback
Same in some way: Take the brunt of the blame even though its not solely their fault

I realize these are the forums but try just a bit harder to not be an ass and try comprehend at least the basics of what people are saying instead of just spitting out unintelligible tripe because you saw it on a web site and thought the saying was cool.
Ok pumpkin?

[Osmeric]

Maybe you should stop looking up Latin terms and try a bit of reading comprehension. No where did I blame him and say... "therefore its his fault."
I said he was the front man and like all front men he is tied to the success or failure of the situation in question.

So, you think he should be fired, even if it isn't his fault?

There's a word for what you're being there: despicable.

No one said he was the quarterback... it was an analogy...

Yes, a bogus and stupid one.

I realize these are the forums but try just a bit harder to not be an ass and try comprehend at least the basics of what people are saying instead of just spitting out .unintelligible tripe because you saw it on a web site and thought the saying was cool.
Ok pumpkin?

No comment.

[Zulkhan]

Ghostcrawler is not the big boss of everything, and there is no way to prove that the loss of subscribers is due to him, not even one (and no, random complainers are not a prove). Hoping to "save the game" by firing him, with no real ground to base the sense of such an act, would be like change the pierced wheel of your car blinded, without even knowing if you're changing the right one.

[Deleted]

Wouldn't that mean that the entire team of the games listed here:

http://mmodata.net/

....need to be fired? Every single game listed has lost over 50% of their subs in less time. None of these games has reached the height of subs that WoW had or sustained over such a period of time. If you want to fire GC - what would you do to the ppl behind SWToR?

Actually after over 8 years, WoW has more subs than all these games ever had at their peak.

Just trying to offer a different angle here - maybe they actually gave GC a rise in pay?

He deserves neither of those things. People don't leave MMO's because of a meme dislike paraded in forums, which a fraction of the subscription base even post in. The reasons for WoW's decline has been discussed ad nauseam, and it's why EVE is the only western sub MMO to grow since it's launch 10 years ago.

[Omega10]

Congratz GC 77% popularity at this time. For all the grief you take, apparently a HUGE majority of the community is behind you.

Hang in there and keep on doing what you are doing

[Marxman]

In the east probably. Not in the west which is the market Blizzard focuses on.

Right. The MMO market in NA and Europe is nowhere near as large as it is in Asia. The Asian market tends to thrive off of grindy games, so MMOs are a perfect fit (see also: Diablo's success in Asia).

WoW was the right game at the right moment in the West, that's how it hit 12 million. I don't think anyone expected that to be sustainable, nor should they. 12 Million subs is a HUGE number in the west, where MMO games are still a small niche. A small niche that has been and is still absolutely dominated by WoW. That's inarguable.

[Osmeric]

WoW was the right game at the right moment in the West, that's how it hit 12 million.

It never had anywhere close to 12 million in the west.

[Tisane]

Recently he might have made a few mistakes (with a couple of others), but I still like him as he does a lot of good things for the game too. I still got faith in him. If he should get replaced with a new talented person, than so should a couple of other employees who's making the decisions for/together with him.

[Gimlix]

Ghostcrawler is doing fine, but having 2 lead designers wouldn't hurt either x)

[Osmeric]

Ghostcrawler is doing fine, but having 2 lead designers wouldn't hurt either x)

He's the lead systems designer. There are other leads for other parts of the game.