Unholy stat priorities

[Darkanarchist]

is there a reason why im getting a dps increase in simcraft using full haste gems(320 haste in yellow) festerblight rotation /w ams soaking
and for standard unholy w/ams soaking(without ams soaking seems to be even better but who cares about that :P)
or is it just that at some gear levels(535+) it can be a dps increase depending on gear?

EDIT:i use runic empowerment as i just prefer it so im not getting that much gcd capping

[Raikh]

If you have t15 2set, leg meta and 2 rppm trinkets haste gets your best stat until somewhat high values but only on patchwerk encounters. If an encounter creates downtimes through mechanics (windstorm on qon for example) haste devalues and probably falls behind crit and possibly even mastery depending on the length of those downtimes.

And runic empowerment does not create less runes it just breaks your runecycles which makes you feel it is slower, but the dps difference is marginal anyway depending on playstyle non existent, just saying that it won't change your haste values.

[Darkanarchist]

If you have t15 2set, leg meta and 2 rppm trinkets haste gets your best stat until somewhat high values but only on patchwerk encounters. If an encounter creates downtimes through mechanics (windstorm on qon for example) haste devalues and probably falls behind crit and possibly even mastery depending on the length of those downtimes.

And runic empowerment does not create less runes it just breaks your runecycles which makes you feel it is slower, but the dps difference is marginal anyway depending on playstyle non existent, just saying that it won't change your haste values.

i know what the difference is i just prefer Runic empowerment as i was blood in cata

simming 1k to 2k ahead on patchwerk or light movement(on heavy/helter its basically a 150 dps difference with mixed results(depending on regen talent haste is better worse by ~150 dps) for normal unholy(im running 50k sims here dont want to get back to you in an hour after checking every single rune talent and fester/nonfester at different haste amounts :P......though for fester on 10k sims it seems to be mostly mirroring the results) even in the 14k-haste range(from 12-13k haste seems to be better with no movement light and ~100 for heavy/helter.....)


i can see crit/mastery getting better in some test but what i find strange is with my gear 1 str is alway <= 2haste
also stacking extreme haste seem to increase that initial burst in festerblight by around 4k :P
what i want to know is why i see people saying never put pure haste gems into gear where i see it as an almost complete dps increase(with legendary meta and rppm trinkets obviously being the reason :/)

i know crit/mastery can beat haste at points but thats not what im asking, im asking if pure haste is actually just overall better to gem at certain gear levels or if my sims are missing something(doing 50k itteration sims on patch/light/heavy/helter always with 200k ams absorb on cd (as a troll deathknight vs neutral boss type) normal and fester trinkets=Hfeather/HRage and 7.5/7.5 hit/exp caps)

also your doing exaclty what im asking anyways it seems :P(btw are exp/haste gems really better than str/haste gems? or you just dualspecing blood(yet another reason i want to stack haste))

[Raikh]

I played a while around, since i got the same results, haste gemming > str gemming and in the end the difference is small and consideirng that simcraft provides just a model of your dps i would even say that the gain is questionable. In normal raidsituations you won't notice that 1% difference on overall performance, you could even sneeze and its gone.
In theory it is a gain of 0,5%-1% when going from str to haste as soon as you_ve got feather and the talisman and 530 ilvl +.
The talisman offers high uptime str proccs, so str devalues a bit in comparison to secondary stats, you can see this if you sim yourself with talisman and then with the spark for example. (the uh might nerf also kicked us a tiny bit towards secondary stats)

Overall you could also just socket pure crit or mastery, the difference is about the same as the runereg talents and probably non existent if you fit the playstyle of the stat, slower or faster depending on haste level.

The reason i gemmed haste and also exp (although that is a current experiment while farming tot) is simply easier adjustment and playstyle. For patchwerk its a slight gain for haste and especially in keeping up dots while spamming ss with trinkets up.
I personally like to play rapid playstyles, i get bored by too much downtime so haste fits my playstyle as long as i can use all the resources and not completely overcapping me. If i now have an encounter with lots of ams soaking, lei shen for example, i don't need my 15k haste, 12-13k would do, so i can easily reforge them to crit or mastery if aoe is important.
Some might say but if you gem str you don't need to reforge, but with a str gemming i could have less haste as i need/want for another encounter and because str is not reforgable i would have to changes gems which is probably more expensive and less accurate because of fix stats etc.
Also str has no good or bad sides its just dps, mastery has times where it shines, haste has and even crit has.

And as i like to have as much secondary stats as possbile for more freedom and control over how to bring my dps i also currently changed str to exp.

For most players i would call it a habit to gem str, its the first where it is viable to gem sec stats and you need a decent ilvl to make it worth it or atleast bring it on par, also the gain isn't great enough to make it the way to go so why pay the gold to change it, if the difference is barely noticable? you can do your job without it fairly well.

For me its flexibility, i can play all 4 specs with just change a bit of reforgement with 99%+ effectivity, only for dw it is not 100% since i have slightly to much haste if playing with plaque leech but on my ilvl its close to dead anyway. And being able to play blood very well due to much haste and mastery is well worth it for me since i have to tank quite often.

long post for the explanation and personal stuff on that, the tl;dr is:

Slight gain at 530+ with talisman and feather for haste over str gems on 100% uptime bosses.
More flexibility in gear setup for different encounters (chnage to mastery for heavy aoe for example)
Personal preference on playstyle and better for off specs, since the gain is barely noticable most of the time.

[Asrialol]

Most of ToT bosses has some sort of ads meaning Str>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Haste, afaik.

[bals]

well according to posts today, you should always be using rc

[goltnum9]

depending your playstyle you should aim for 9k or 14k haste and then go for str/crit

this guy has made a huge effort in DK theorycrafting http://destinysoftworks.blogspot.de/...ng-unholy.html

[prestilence]

Yes, with RC (feather/ talisman) as the best trinks as unholy. Being unholy pres (20% + RC) raises your overall proc per minute, whether talisman of rage is intended to proc as much for us going that RC priority or not, it's only recently been noticed since now you can watch RPPM rate on PTR. So people using those trinks are now noticing the HUGE difference by going RC. From what I noticed a lot of people started trying everything to compensate for the loss of Tricks of the trade buff to our festerblight, when really it was only a small chance compared to if most DKs would have stayed RC with optimal trinks (feather/ talisman).

[Jko]

Is the 9k or 14k the breakpoints for diseases I assume? I only play Blood really.

[Deleted]

Diseases don't scale with haste, we aren't warlocks.

[Deleted]

Overall you could also just socket pure crit or mastery, the difference is about the same as the runereg talents and probably non existent if you fit the playstyle of the stat, slower or faster depending on haste level.

Just wanted to comment on this - Seeing as the guild has pretty much gone on summer holidays I've tried a str>mastery>crit>haste reforge to satisfy curiosity and be able to offtank some bosses in DPS gear. To my surprise the actual DPS difference between my normal str>haste(to around 9,5k)>crit>mastery reforge is virtually non existent :-/

[Maxweii]

Just wanted to comment on this - Seeing as the guild has pretty much gone on summer holidays I've tried a str>mastery>crit>haste reforge to satisfy curiosity and be able to offtank some bosses in DPS gear. To my surprise the actual DPS difference between my normal str>haste(to around 9,5k)>crit>mastery reforge is virtually non existent :-/

"evil cackle.gif"
another has turned

[Deleted]

"evil cackle.gif"
another has turned

Heh, whether or not I stay with a mastery reforge is another matter... It's a convenience at the moment, however with crit not being part of the set bonus in tier16, the stacking haste benefit being questionable at higher amounts and that crit trinket(feather mark 2) devaluing crit with disease snapshotting I can see it being competitive anyway.

[goltnum9]

Is the 9k or 14k the breakpoints for diseases I assume? I only play Blood really.

The above refers to an Unholy specc. Nothing to with diseases. Haste does nothing to them. Its more about the playstyle, smashing buttons or watching things.

Its complicated but i linked my source http://destinysoftworks.blogspot.de/...ng-unholy.html

feel free to follow it or not

[Handsom]

Siming myself <Handssome windrunner-US> with ams soaking puts haste below str. Maybe using RE is changing the stat weights a bit?

SImply put, Str is much much better for all the ToT encounters. Unfortunately real world results are not always going to line up with sim results.
Jin: Fight last 2:30 now, so between hero and frezny you will be resource capped for half the fight, which will devalue haste by a nice margin.
Horridon-Raden: Multi target fights heavily favors str. I suggest running sims of 3+targets.

Anyways for anyone trying to min/max for ToT you will want to gem str and take RC.

[Darkanarchist]

Siming myself <Handssome windrunner-US> with ams soaking puts haste below str. Maybe using RE is changing the stat weights a bit?

SImply put, Str is much much better for all the ToT encounters. Unfortunately real world results are not always going to line up with sim results.
Jin: Fight last 2:30 now, so between hero and frezny you will be resource capped for half the fight, which will devalue haste by a nice margin.
Horridon-Raden: Multi target fights heavily favors str. I suggest running sims of 3+targets.

Anyways for anyone trying to min/max for ToT you will want to gem str and take RC.

went with a full haste gem build yesterday and (13.8k haste) and did the normal rotation(not festerblight) and i did the same dps i normally do when playing festerblight
also remember when you run a sim for stat weights the results are heavily dependant on what the stats you have when you run it, with my gear i get these stat weights :
i42.tinypic.com/2qtuzch.png
50k iterations
Str:5.3
haste:3.23
crit:2.79
mastery:2.53
and that is with AMS soaking and the simcraft edit to festering strike found on destiny softworks(haste still wins for me even without that but it seems to make haste worth even more :P)
also might help if you understand my gear gives 11k crit even when not reforging into it over haste :P

[Handsom]

went with a full haste gem build yesterday and (13.8k haste) and did the normal rotation(not festerblight) and i did the same dps i normally do when playing festerblight
also remember when you run a sim for stat weights the results are heavily dependant on what the stats you have when you run it, with my gear i get these stat weights :
i42.tinypic.com/2qtuzch.png
50k iterations
Str:5.3
haste:3.23
crit:2.79
mastery:2.53
and that is with AMS soaking and the simcraft edit to festering strike found on destiny softworks(haste still wins for me even without that but it seems to make haste worth even more :P)
also might help if you understand my gear gives 11k crit even when not reforging into it over haste :P

The fact that you did the same dps that you "normally" do does not show anything, unless you had the same amount of trinket procs at the same times. No matter how good you are, dps can range +/-35%.

Believe me I understand, im sitting at 11k haste and 11k crit at 550ilvl. I am saying that regardless of what the sim tells you, it wont be better for any current encounter. There is no fight in ToT that will make haste>str, re sim yourself on a multi target fight to see what I mean. Look at my wow heros page if you think I am full of it.

If you are trying to seriously min max, it is about a 10k dps bump to use RC over RE as there is a bug that allows RPPM to scale with RC.

[wobbrocker]

The above refers to an Unholy specc. Nothing to with diseases. Haste does nothing to them. Its more about the playstyle, smashing buttons or watching things.

Doesn't haste increase the amount of ticks from your diseases?

[Handsom]

Doesn't haste increase the amount of ticks from your diseases?

Haste does not do anything for our diseases. For casters it reduces the intervals between ticks, but we are not casters.

[Maxweii]

Haste does not do anything for our diseases. For casters it reduces the intervals between ticks, but we are not casters.

This is how it is for us, we are the outliers.
However we are the only class that can indefinitely extend our dots, Festering Strike is awesome like that.