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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Beararmz View Post
    Dunno why Alliance would be dissatisfied, they get to raid our capitol city, take out our Faction leader, and get a badass title. Look at us horde what happened to our faction pride? seems there is none. All we do is get take out Garrosh one of our own. Idk why we just don't forget about Garrosh and take out the Alliance while our ships are docked at Stormwind. But they wouldn't let us do that, that's too cool and would piss off alliance lol. So as a Horde player my faction pride and morale is extremely low
    We get to raid your capitol, which owns. We both get to take out your faction leader, who has been intentionally written to be an asshole for the entirety of the expansion just so the Horde no longer feels bad about killing him. Which is the biggest gripe the Alliance has: they can't just have something, some sort of compensation seems to be owed to the Horde whenever the Alliance takes a step forward. Meanwhile the reverse is seems to be untrue whenever the Horde take a step forward.

  2. #42
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Muradu View Post
    We are not like Garrosh's Horde, which permitted the indiscriminate killing of men, women and children in Theramore, Gilneas and various other locations.
    Garrosh doesn't do this either. At Theramore he made sure the Alliance knew his army was there and waited a week before attacking. At Gilneas he ordered a charge at the Greymane Wall, far from any population center (It was Sylvanas' idea to launch a surprise attack on the city).
    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    People often debate whether Stonetalon Garrosh and MoP Garrosh are the same Warchief. Is there something afoot?
    How so? He never ordered nukes wasted on civilian targets and still wouldn't.

    It didn't seem he cared if Theramore had civs in ToW.
    Theramore completely a military target, more so when the civs have chance to escape. (Source)

  3. #43
    The Undying Slowpoke is a Gamer's Avatar
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    Tried to write this out earlier but it fell victim to bad internet.

    For me the biggest issue with the Alliance is the fact it exists only as the anti-horde. Their characters, values, quests, and even lore change based on what the Horde is. Thrall leads the Horde, Alliance is a warmonger. Garrosh militarizes the Horde, Alliance becomes like wet paper. Garrosh becomes evil, Alliance becomes noble altruistic idiots. The Horde becomes a loose association of races, the Alliance becomes a dictatorship under Varian.

    The Alliance will never have a real story beyond being the anti-Horde until WoW gets a writer that's willing to see the Alliance as an actual faction again instead of a literary tool no one who matters plays. And that wont' happen until the current writers are "moved to another project."
    FFXIV - Maduin (Dynamis DC)

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Combatbulter View Post
    Personal preference I guess, honor is fine and dandy if you can afford it, but to constantly clinging to it no matter the cost is nothing but pure stupidity in my eyes, which is why I dislike Tirion Fordring so much, logically he should have never made it this far in Icecrown.
    But that's my point. It's the story after they lose what they feel is the source of honor, when they're pushed past the point of holding to it, how do they react afterwards that's interesting.

    Prince Zuko's story in Avatar: The Last Airbender comes to mind. He was dishonored by simply speaking his opinion out of turn and cast out, banished from his home by his father. To capture the Avatar at all costs, no matter the consequences was the sole driving factor he felt would regain his honor, but as he went through his journey, he begins to find that his honor is not found in the approval of his father, but in taking the path he personally feels is right. Honor can be a driving factor in the story, but it doesn't necessitate moral good and always taking the high road as a default.

    Hell, think about some of the old samurai films. Regaining honor can be a rather bloody and moral gray affair.

    They stole magical artifacts from the Broken to sate their hunger though.
    That they did! But they didn't break down and go for fel magic.

  5. #45
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Here's the Alliance description from the Pandaren choosing screen:
    The noble races of the Alliance are bound together by proud traditions of nobility, honor, faith, justice, and sacrifice. The many different Alliance people all contribute their technical, arcane, and spiritual wisdom toward the goal of a peaceful and just world. Take up their banner to represent the high ideals of the Alliance throughout Azeroth and beyond. For the Allliance!

    Here's the Horde:
    The proud nations of the Horde are loosely joined in an alliance of convenience against a hostile world that would see them destroyed. Focused, ferocious, and sometimes monstrous, the Horde values strength and honore, but struggles to keep aggression in check. Join the horde and fight to build a world where their people can live free. For the Horde!

  6. #46
    New Kid Zaelsino's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadiru View Post
    Garithos, guy who was actually 100% vindicated
    It's not really vindication if you predict someone's death but have to kill them yourself to prove it right.

  7. #47
    Deleted
    I don't care about revenge as much as I care about kicking the Horde out of zones that they stole from the Alliance. All they'd have to is phase it out for Alliance players, but of course they won't. It's completely idiotic for the Alliance to go straight for Garrosh when they could retake their territories and then clean-up the mess that is Garrosh afterwards. It's all around just horrible storytelling with too much plot-armor for the Horde.

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    That they did! But they didn't break down and go for fel magic.
    Yes but they do feed their addiction, which is the point. A few can be sated that way, but all of them? Unlikely, more dire measures were necessary, which is why the schism between high and blood elves happened in the first place and even then the vast majority of the blood elves never actively consumed fel energy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Faroth View Post
    But that's my point. It's the story after they lose what they feel is the source of honor, when they're pushed past the point of holding to it, how do they react afterwards that's interesting.

    Prince Zuko's story in Avatar: The Last Airbender comes to mind. He was dishonored by simply speaking his opinion out of turn and cast out, banished from his home by his father. To capture the Avatar at all costs, no matter the consequences was the sole driving factor he felt would regain his honor, but as he went through his journey, he begins to find that his honor is not found in the approval of his father, but in taking the path he personally feels is right. Honor can be a driving factor in the story, but it doesn't necessitate moral good and always taking the high road as a default.

    Hell, think about some of the old samurai films. Regaining honor can be a rather bloody and moral gray affair.
    It can be used that way, but I have yet to see it in WOW, the Alliance clings almost maniacally to their principles unwilling to let go even for a moment.
    Last edited by Combatbutler; 2013-08-05 at 07:31 PM.

  9. #49
    I think the ultimate problem isn't one of bias (though BlizzCon has showed that some major names have one and are proud of it), but just one of lazy/bad writing. I don't mean to say that everything is, and I don't want to sound like a jerk to their writers that really are hard-working, but there's a certain overarching trend. The biggest example of this recently was the rebellion plot. They needed the Alliance to look into Garrosh's plans and find out about the rebellion. Who did this? Garrosh's neighbors, the night elves, who specialize in stealth and have a huge grudge against him, right? Nope. Some random SI: 7 people and a robot cat.

  10. #50
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jokubas View Post
    They needed the Alliance to look into Garrosh's plans and find out about the rebellion. Who did this? Garrosh's neighbors, the night elves, who specialize in stealth and have a huge grudge against him, right? Nope. Some random SI: 7 people and a robot cat.
    But see, Garrosh would be expecting NElves to sneak in. He'd never suspect robo-cat!

  11. #51
    Very well written post, Muradu. This makes me have pride to be apart of the Alliance you described

    For all you other jerks posting just to troll, if dont have anything postive to add then go derailed some other thread. -_-
    "If the people who are trying to destroy this world aren't taking a day off, then why should I?"

    -Bob Marley

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by MagicBanana View Post
    Very well written post, Muradu. This makes me have pride to be apart of the Alliance you described
    The Alliance he described is stuck, they are utterly predictable. One of the greatest moments was the purge of Dalaran, it showed a darker side of the Alliance, which should be seen more often, it makes them more realistic.

  13. #53
    It's just bad to go in orgrimar, kill garosh and demand nothing in return like the part of ashenvale that is destroyed (which is just next to the city) back, and an agreement for letting the forests of it unharmed.

    It's just... not exactly too kind, but shows a hole in the lore and events.

  14. #54
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    It's just bad to go in orgrimar, kill garosh and demand nothing in return like the part of ashenvale that is destroyed (which is just next to the city) back, and an agreement for letting the forests of it unharmed.

    It's just... not exactly too kind, but shows a hole in the lore and events.
    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    Will the other leaders give Varian flak for going over their heads in the letting the horde go with no reparations made from them
    Just because we don't take ten minutes to show negotiations doesn't mean there's no reparations. (Source)

  15. #55
    What people often forget about this is that Garrosh is not only "a little more powerful".

    He is an expansion end-boss. Hes so powerful that hes more powerful then the THUNDER KING himself!

    He is a WORLD-LEVEL threat! If left unchecked he will DESTROY the whole alliance in his hate and will to subjugate everything to his Horde.
    He is using the Heart of Yrrsahj, a Old god, and no one knows how much stronger he can become with enough time.

    The Alliance is allying with the Rebels because Humans are well know to forge alliances with hated enemies when the need for survival arises.

    Also giving their word to the Rebels, and then turning on then on the end of the war is highly dishonorable, and even on RL human history there is very little cases of this happening, like EUA and Russia for example, or many medieval wars with similar results, where a truce happened, and another war exploded years later.

    Not doing that makes you dishonorable, and makes your own allies stop trusting you.
    If you act like that, you lose any ability to forge alliances of need, and that may be the doom of your people.


    What i hate the most here, is that everyone thinks that the Alliance can just walk and destroy orgrimmar, when the horde is at their peak of militar power, when they could not do so in years, in fact presenting some bad loses to the horde even on distant territories.

    You can try to argue that the split endangered the horde, but this arguments doesn't stand.
    It is well established in the lore that Garrosh Horde is more military powerful then Thrall ones ever was.
    He infused his soldiers with power, he took years increasing his military might, and allowed the spirits to be tortured in his name. He made new weapons of destruction, and created war machines never seen before.
    His Elite Grunts are so powerful that they out scale even the serfs of the Thunder King.


    Garrosh is a world-level threat. One that is so powerful that needs the whole world again to stop him.
    And when he finally goes down, the destruction and the losses will be enough for everyone.
    The troops will be tired, and happy, no one will want another bloodshed, and the Rebels are more then enough in numbers an power, to pose a threat when in his own territory.

    Alliance can only bring so much military force to a distant ground without near supply station.
    Surely they would still be able to destroy the rebels, but at what cost?
    Their honor, their word, more bloodshed, and more death to their own, as powerful enemies like Thrall, Vol'Jin, Baine, etc... will be there to fight for their people.

    (Also i would like to remember you that as soon as garrosh is dethroned, the Spirits will once again be able to help Thrall, and he alone could bring MAJOR loses to the alliance army...)

    Things are not like that.
    And it would be not more realistic if the Alliance wiped the Horde, in fact it would be WAY less realistic.

    Look at human story, look at the whole medieval period!
    Most of the time we made alliances of need, and more then once we helped people dethrone their rules, without doing a massacre in sequence.

    People avoid War Crimes, because people fear the future. When oaths are broken, and rules ignored, enemies will break theirs too, and then what? Bloodshed and death.
    I'd like to remember that both world wars had weapons that was very efficient, but an agreement removed then from the fields, to avoid mass murdering without any gain.

    So seriously, go learn some real world history before you want a reality check for Alliance actions.

    What people here want is more kin to fictional books then to reality.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    But see, Garrosh would be expecting NElves to sneak in. He'd never suspect robo-cat!
    :P
    True, but my point is, night elves are a race that can literally vanish into shadows. Even if there were some reason they felt that they could not succeed by themselves, they should at least be part of the operation. It turned what should have been a logical use of the strengths of the various races of the Alliance, and a chance to flesh out the night elves, into a cat joke.

  17. #57
    Titan Tierbook's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Originally Posted by Dave Kosak
    Will the other leaders give Varian flak for going over their heads in the letting the horde go with no reparations made from them
    Just because we don't take ten minutes to show negotiations doesn't mean there's no reparations. (Source)
    i wonder what the reparation will be better be something good
    Quote Originally Posted by Connal View Post
    I'd never compare him to Hitler, Hitler was actually well educated, and by all accounts pretty intelligent.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Steelangel View Post
    Say what?

    Do you mean Dalaran?
    Yeah, my bad: Dalaran, as the context of the sentence clearly suggested.

    If so, then you have no idea what the word "genocide" means. Maybe you could describe her actions as "mass incarceration", but not "targeted killing of a race of people with the aim of eradication". Her aims were not to kill every blood elf.
    From Webster.com, Genocide is "the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group." That's precisely what Jaina did in Dalaran: imprison every Horde in general and every Sunreaver in particular and kill those who didn't like the idea. Tell me: would you like to be thrown in jail for no other reason than your race? No? Then you'd be on Jaina's hit list. Replay the scenario again: it's genocide. For heaven's sake, she starts off killing Sunreaver guards. No explanation. No warning. No choice given. This is your Alliance leadership at work at what happened in Dalaran: delightfully killing people without investigating the matter for the individuals they killed.

    Compare that to the Forsaken's stated goal of mass planetary biospheric destruction.
    This is no justification for Dalaran. You don't justify your actions by drawing your audience's attention to someone else. From what I've seen, however, the Forsaken have been largely if not exclusively busy defending themselves by any means necessary from the arrogance and bigotry of the Alliance and Scarlet Crusade. Don't want to be plagued? Stop persecuting them for having been killed.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Well View Post
    It's just bad to go in orgrimar, kill garosh and demand nothing in return like the part of ashenvale that is destroyed (which is just next to the city) back, and an agreement for letting the forests of it unharmed.

    It's just... not exactly too kind, but shows a hole in the lore and events.
    First, the Rebels are taking the horde control.

    Second, the rebels were alliance allies for the attack, so they have rights on the gains of victory.

    Third, in RL story there is many more examples of governs helping rebels that ended in no territory loss then the contrary.

    Fourth, Ashenvale now have a big goblin base, and their land was destroyed by Deathwing. No way the Horde will accept any terms to give back that piece of land, even more when it gives direct access to Orgrimmar.
    No sane country would adhere to this requirement, and another war would happen on the spot, endangering everyone again.

    And don't think that the alliance would be able to wipe then, because Forsaken would be able to bring their forces, and would have motivation to do so, since the rest of the Horde, non-garrosh horde disappearing is a major problem to then, and because the leaders of the horde would be free and in power again.
    You don't want to fight the whole horde again, and face thrall, bane, vol'jin, sylvannas, just after a big battle with so many losses.

    You can require war reparations, maybe withdraw from attacks on Gilneas, and justice to be made about Theramore.
    But in turn horde would require the imprisoned elfs.

    I'd like to remember you that Dalaran was a neutral city that is now in alliance control.
    So the horde lost something big, in exchange for Theramore.

    In fact i dare say Dalaran was a great tradeoff, a flying city is too big of an advantage, and brings so much power, over what Theramore was isolated in middle of horde territory.

  20. #60
    So the OP makes a well versed opinion and you run in forthing at the mouth and explain yours. Honestly? Its an opinion and its a game, but the way your rage takes over you as you type out your "opinion" leaves numerous questions regarding sanity and "calm down bro!".
    “Frothing?” Hardly. The blind zealotry voiced by the OP had to be balanced by a more rational examination of his claims. Call it “rage” all you want in some pitiful attempt of ad hominem; it only makes me giggle.

    as for the actual post. He is right. If you are true supporters of your "Warchief" why in the blazes would you go against him. Regardless of what he does.
    Very few, if any, swore absolute loyalty to the Warchief. Our battlecry is “For the Horde,” not “For the Warchief.” Nice try, though.

    Isnt the orcish rite of passage through a duel to the death? Also, Nazgrim is following orders from Garrosh but the other horde will raid orgimmar. So who is the true horde? Who is the honorable and loyal one? And who is the hypocrite? Both cant be it.
    Then hey, we’ll find out when we see who’s left standing after the Siege of Orgrimmar, eh?

    As for Garithos. Really?
    Yes, really. You have dirty stains on your Alliance underpants; wishing to ignore them doesn’t make you clean.

    I guess I should just constantly blame every little demon summon, invasion, orc presence, every death on what the night elves did with well of eternity.
    Oh yeah, forgot about that. Thanks. Bad Night Elves! Bad!

    Garithos was stupid and that was a puppet string to lead into the blood elf story. He was not however the leader of a faction.
    “The” leader? Nope, but he doesn’t need to be, since he was “a” leader of the Alliance and acted without being reprimanded by “any” leader of the Alliance. He wore the Alliance crest, he commanded Alliance armies, he negotiated political matters with other races: he represented your Alliance. You may not like it, but ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.

    And honestly I am sure Garrosh has shown trolls, tauren, goblins, blood elves far better treatment than Garithos did the blood elves eh? Yeaaaaaaaa..........All rise for the national anthem of Garrosh's horde please.
    Hence the rebellion. Did your Alliance ever reprimand Grand Marshal Garithos? Nope. We Horde had to do it for you. That’s where the parallels diverge.

    Jaina? Same deal. She is not the faction leader.
    Irrelevant; she is a prominent faction leader, just like Grand Marshal Garithos.

    What many people conviniently forget is that since wrath of the lich king, two storylines have been in the making. Garrosh and Varian. Others are just side line additives. However thats a double edge sword. You cannot call Sylvanas out and say Jaina is innocent. The difference however is. When thrall and Kalecgos stopped her. She stopped. Wonder what all that green goo in southshore means regarding sylvanas'. Hell we all know by the undead quests that garrosh has no hold over her. Given the chance she would raise him as a minion and whip him everyday, once at breakfast, once at supper, once at dinner and once more before bed.
    And that’s what makes Sylvanas awesome. Don’t want to be plagued? Stop screwing with the Forsaken.

    As for the sunreavers. Sure then, I wonder you can answer for those dudes the undead constantly try their plague on. No?
    Alliance are little more than animals. Dwarves in cages being tested on are analogous to rats in a laboratory. Don’t want to be a test subject? Stop harassing the Forsaken.

    Even so, what she did was wrong. Reprecussions however? Why? Do we get compensation for those mountain dwarves being tested on? Furthermore the entire reason the alliance was trying to grab hold of the artifact was so garrosh could not use it to bad ends. Not to use against the horde. If you did both sides of the quest you would realise that. The only reason Jaina can be blamed in her outright actions was that she forgot that many of the blood elves served garrosh under threat.
    I’ve been through both sides and what you say is false. The Alliance wanted to study the Bell; they made not a single mention of wanting to never use it against the Horde. That’s a plot device of your own construction. You may try to justify Jaina breaking neutrality by aiding the Alliance against the Horde, but that’s still breaking neutrality – the very thing she imprisoned and killed all Horde citizens of Dalaran for. Pot, meet kettle.

    Varian in Cataclysm is taken by Lo'gosh. And begins to get better at his control and mindset. Solves the dwarf dispute and if i remember correctly, thoroughly kicks the shit out of garrosh in single combat. Oh dont mince words. You can read what happened in the book. Garrosh looses. Yea he tried to run back into the fight but in duels ifs and buts dont happen. You go in an win. Varian wasnt being lead away by his soldiers. Garrosh was.
    Congrats? While you’re busy thinking you’re quite something because Varian did well in a duel, we’re busy conquering your towns and killing your dudes.

    And now we arrive at mists of pandaria. Mr. Garrosh has gone bat shit crazy. Made a few rifts in his own horde. He has tried to use the powers of an old God (remember Cho'gall? or by extrapolation, remember grom hellscream and manoroth's blood?). Bombed theramore. War? I wonder who attacked first. Jaina or Garrosh. Making towers and fortresses? Yea numerous in the horde territory eh? Northwatch was lost long ago. Theramore was there before horde expansion. Alliance leadership? All garrosh wanted was to spark a war, at watever the cost, and he did it.
    Perhaps, but no one can honestly say it was an ill-conceived plan, with Theramore being the port through which the bulk of Alliance forces flowed into Kalimdore. And war? You act as if the Horde & Alliance haven’t been fighting all this time. We smushed Gilneas and Southshore long before Theramore.

    The faction leader and its people make the faction.
    Correction: the faction leaders. Plural. The faction is more than one leader and its people. While the overall leader may have the most weight, he is not the whole picture, as the Horde rebellion clearly illustrates.

    You can judge by yourself. The horde is already divided, and your leader is a fool.
    If we’re rebelling against Garrosh, how is he still our “leader?” He isn’t leading those who are rebelling against him now, is he?

    If some lone horde green dude still holds to honor or what not, it is like a drop of water before a waterfall. He/she is drowned out by the foolishness of the rest of the faction. Im sure you will be trooping around with a horde banner until garrosh looks at the goblins and oh what did he say? "Sniveling" "Lining their pockets" "turn at the chance of a better of offer", wonder if you will still go around as happily eh.

    Nah id rather follow an actual leader.
    Your entire gripe is about one guy – a guy who is soon to be deposed, as he no longer represents the Horde. The very concept of you trying to use Garrosh as a representative of those who are rebelling against him is dazzling!

    Quote Originally Posted by Deathgoose View Post

    Also, this one? Really?

    1) Nuking a druid school in Stonetalon.
    2) Plague bombing all citizens into goo in Southshore.

    I'm interested in how you creatively spin those.
    1.) Nuking the Druids was reprimanded by Garrosh himself when he executed the orc responsible.
    2.) Southshore had it coming. Don’t want to be plagued? Stop screwing with the Forsaken.

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