Would it upset you if LFR went away? Why or why not?

[Beartastic]

If blizzard ever decided to make raids as easy and as fun as Naxx 10/25 again, I'd say, "Sure, get rid of LFR because I can see content and not have to worry about getting carried through it all." That being said, I know most people will say "omg you wrathbaby gtfo you didn't raid when it was hard," but regardless... I enjoyed being able to pug on a server. My server pretty much died in Cata because a lot of players who were exceptional raiders in Wrath couldn't perform well in the Cata content and moved to other servers as a way to get into better raiding guilds. I miss being able to say in chat "LFM 'X' raid fresh run, no loot reserves." If blizzard toned down raids like they used to be, I would be all for removal of the LFR. Since that probably won't happen, I guess I'lll just stick to LFR's horrible mechanics.

[wrynil]

What does LFR have to do with the way progression used to be? How does it affect progression?

in order to gear up = lfr. To help getting the best gear available = lfr. Which means you see the whole content in a crappy state before maybe clearing it in normal/hc - and you do it just because its expected to do ones best for guilds.

With the current state of normal however it wouldnt be fair. Normal is tuned quite hard cause they got lfr.

[Kelimbror]

*SNIP*

If you are gearing up in LFR, it's because you are raiding for gear. So the content shouldn't matter. Otherwise you would just wait it out in normal in order to see the content the way you claim. Additionally, Flex Raiding will provide a difficulty in between the two.

So it really sounds like your points are and will be invalid.

[Marema]

LFR is here to stay. People need to get over it. I know I wouldn't play unless there was an LFR. I've rarely had problems with the people in LFR and generally have had a good experience. I can tell you that I have had far more bad experiences in a progression raid guild than I've ever had in LFR.

[Lord Blackmore]

By adding Flex it is my opinion they should remove LFR all together.

Flex does not solve one of the big things LFR addresses. Specifically, being able do the content on your own scheduled instead of being locked into
a specific sechedule.

The argument I don't have time to do normal raids in my eyes is also BS, if your not on a high pop server and your a dps the queue can take up to an hour, add another hour for 3 bosses then times 4 for all the wings and you're spending 8 hours in a raid setting with the only difference you can sleep through it. As has been posted by several on multiple forums there are HC guilds that raid less then 8 hours each reset and are 13/13 so again having no time to me is BS unless like a m8 of mine you work in shifts and well then your kinda screwed.

For most people it's not about "not having time". It's about not being locked into a specific schedule where they have not only show up at the same times every week, but also have to stick around for a specific number of hours. I'm someone who raided on a schedule since classic and I'm completely burned out on the regular raiding experience. Having LFR means I can still improve my character and experience the content, but I can do it when I want.

BTW, since LFR is cross realm, it doesn't matter what population your server is.

- - - Updated - - -

If you are gearing up in LFR, it's because you are raiding for gear. So the content shouldn't matter. Otherwise you would just wait it out in normal in order to see the content the way you claim. Additionally, Flex Raiding will provide a difficulty in between the two.

Content always matters. Flex also doesn't address the biggest issue most people have: being locked into a schedule.

[Deleted]

Everyone has opinions. LFR removed everything that made raids bad for me: scheduling, job mentality, and having to be fake social. Now I can do it on my own time and don't have to talk to anyone unless I feel like it.

Exactly. Also, LFR removed the worst for me when it comes to raiding: Having to deal with a raid guild.
No, thanks - think I'll pass.

[Kelimbror]

Content always matters.

It clearly doesn't. There's tons of evidence to support this, which I have already pointed out, but you are disregarding the context of my response.

The complaint was that you can't see the content in normal mode because you have to gear up in LFR. This statement alone proves that gear > content. If you feel the need to do 'lesser' content for gear, then you have prioritized gear over content. It's that simple.

[Raelbo]

In other words, gear is the largest reason people raid. No one will admit it, but even Blizzard understands this is the underlying motivation for playing.

Yes and no. Gear is simply a means to an end. That end is overcoming the next challenge the game throws at you. Which in turn rewards gear that helps you overcome the next challenge etc etc...

It's sort of a symbiotic thing. We raid to get gear. We want the gear so that we can raid. In the end the fun is delivered by beating obstacles and seeing your character get stronger. Being stronger is important because we want to beat more content.

And potentially flex raiding is targeted for people just like you.

I think more accurately flex raiding is targetting guilds like mine, and as a result I am really looking forward to it.

My conundrum is pretty simple really: I am in a casual guild of friends, most of whom are no longer in the prime of their WoW careers. Many have had their glory days already. Although those who are still around (many have fallen by the wayside over the years for a multitude of reasons which can be summed up as: Life Happens) still want to raid, many of them are no longer keen/able to commit the kind of time and effort to WoW that is required to be properly equipped and skilled to tackle an instance like ToT.

My personal constraint is that due to having a family, I can't commit heavily to a raid schedule. I can still get in quite a lot of WoW time, just not a lot of raid time because I need to be flexible. At most I can have 1-2 dedicated raid nights a week. Which forces me to choose between spending that time playing with my friends, or finding a semi-casual raidgroup where I can play a bit closer to my potential. Now if my guild was at least clearing bosses and making progress through ToT this wouldn't be too terrible. This is why I am looking forward to Flex raids.

Firstly the difficulty level will make it possible for my guild to make progress on current content.

Secondly, the flexible raid size will help us with our problems related to unreliable raiders. Because we have a bunch of guys who regularly miss raids, we landed up in the unfortunate position of oscillating between having 8 raiders on one night, and then 15 the following week. This is just a bad space to be in. When you are only raiding once a week, people don't like being benched. It's difficult to recruit people when they have a 50/50 chance of being benched every raid. So I foresee the flexible thing working nicely for us. We can afford to recruit enough people to ensure at least 10 people every week, without ever having to bench to people


I'll most likely still make use of LFR quite liberally. It's a good place to practice your rotation and practice doing fight mechanics (even if most of the time they are purely optional in LFR, the still exist). It's also a good place to gather gear to help with regular raid progression. Importantly I quite enjoy the LFR experience for what it is.

I really got quite a bit of enjoyment out of ToT LFR, enough that I cleared the various wings between 11 and 15 times. I have probably had enough of it for this tier though, so it's fortunate I've also got all I want to get out of there (a few pets notwithstanding :P). On top of that I take memories of quite a few good times from it:

The first week of Durumu - 5 wipes and then eventually nailing the bastard. Week 10 on Durumu being 1 of 5 people alive at the end. Ironically here is a case where the "fail" LFR raiders turned the encounter into a challenge for a few of us, which made it fun. That's the crazy thing about LFR: Go with a great group, and it's a pleasure because things go nice and smoothly - win! Go with a fail group and suddenly the content becomes challenging on a personal level - win!

The things I don't like about LFR are when people are jerks. AFK'ers, people yelling at other people, ninja pullers trying to wipe the raid (although I do get a certain amount of satisfaction out of winning the encounter in spite of someone trying to sabotage it) waiting 20 minutes for healers. But in all honesty these negatives are far less common than the good experiences. I guess YMMV

[Kelimbror]

I think more accurately flex raiding is targetting guilds like mine, and as a result I am really looking forward to it.

Well yes, this is what I mean in essence. For people who actually care about the content and a more traditional raid approach, Flex is going to be a very good tool to keep going with that mentality. One of the largest problems with raid groups (and has always been) is attendance and sitting out. No longer do you need to keep a list of subs, people's schedules, and generally feel personally responsible for having a life as a raid member.

I hope a lot of people take advantage of it, as it removes a lot of negative aspects of raiding out of the mix: schedule issues, loot drama, etc.

[Robert3620]

Never can figure out how raiders can hate lfr so much when it has done so much for them. They have gotten more and better content this expansion, due to lfr. They got harder content that was nerfed far less, thanks to lfr. LFR does nothing to harm them, does not prevent them from enjoying the game. What this seems to much more is a belief that only certain people should be able to see raiding and be able to experience content. If you were to remove lfr, then raiding would have to receive far less resources then it does now. With so few people raiding at that point, raiding it's self would be under threat of being cut due to lack of interest. LFR is the best thing that has happen to raiding in this game and to want to remove it is to want to kill raiding it's self.

[Raelbo]

in order to gear up = lfr. To help getting the best gear available = lfr.

Only if you aren't in an at least semi-decent raiding guild.

With the delayed opening of LFR wings at the start of MoP, the really serious players would have outgeared most potential gear upgrades from LFR.

At the start of ToT, the existing raid gear from the previous tier, especially if augmented by VP upgrades, would have left very little room for any upgrades from LFR.

Which means you see the whole content in a crappy state before maybe clearing it in normal/hc - and you do it just because its expected to do ones best for guilds.

So following my reasoning above:

If you're in a good guild then yes, it's expected to do one's best for that guild. This is why it is a good guild. However, since you're in a good guild, you have no need to do LFR because your gear is already better than LFR gear!
If you're not in a good guild then no, it's not expected to do one's best for that guild. This is why it isn't a good guild. So you have no need to do LFR because it's ridiculous for such a guild to place those kinds of demands on their raiders!

[Itisamuh]

Everyone has opinions. LFR removed everything that made raids bad for me: scheduling, job mentality, and having to be fake social. Now I can do it on my own time and don't have to talk to anyone unless I feel like it.

People just can't wrap their heads around this very easy concept, it seems. They can't imagine not wanting to deal with the schedules and other crap that guilds force upon you, just to enjoy the game. I don't see how anyone can be so thick, but there's a lot of them apparently. Heaven forbid people be allowed to do things whenever they want!

[RickJamesLich]

Wouldn't upset me as I'd think it would be a massive improvement for the game, guys that just aren't interested in raiding would've keep getting nudged in that direction, and the game would be a hell of a lot more social. Yes, some guys that only play 2 hours per week wouldn't see much, but then again, they aren't seeing much as it is. I don't think the removal of LFR would kill anybody.... but would probably bring some life back into the game.

[Raelbo]

Never can figure out how raiders can hate lfr so much when it has done so much for them.

I think it's simply because they need a scapegoat. WoW is not exactly in the best space right now. A lot of people have left the game in the last few years, gutting guilds, and detracting from the social aspect of the game. At the same time LFR was born.

Now although I personally don't subscribe to the school of thought that blames LFR for the lost players, a lot of people do. Which is a pity, because like you say, I think LFR has done a lot of positive things for most people, including those who hate it.

[Kelimbror]

People just can't wrap their heads around this very easy concept, it seems. They can't imagine not wanting to deal with the schedules and other crap that guilds force upon you, just to enjoy the game. I don't see how anyone can be so thick, but there's a lot of them apparently. Heaven forbid people be allowed to do things whenever they want!

It's an unfortunate flaw in humanity as this can happen in any aspect of life. People don't like having social gaps lessened, as they enjoy feeling better than others. It's much easier to use straw men to claim that LFR is somehow bad for the game, when in reality accessibility and gameplay do wonders for any game. It's illogical to think otherwise. Sure some mystery and excitment had to be traded off, but that's only for veteran raiders. For me the last mystery and excitement of raiding died when Arthas did.

And to be more accurate, Hyjal trash waves for months on end farming gear for new recruits and whatnot killed my desire for raiding long before I actually stopped doing it.

I think it's simply because they need a scapegoat. WoW is not exactly in the best space right now. A lot of people have left the game in the last few years, gutting guilds, and detracting from the social aspect of the game. At the same time LFR was born.

There is a lot of truth in this. Why analyze the hundreds of reasons that we also have no data to back up, though must surely contribute to the overall decline, when it is easy to just pin it on the one largest design shift since the game was created? It would be just as silly to say that deciding to sell Coke in 6 packs for half price instead of 12 packs has suddenly made buying 12 packs and thereby Coke in general less appealing.

Accessibility doesn't magically ruin a product. It may not make you feel special anymore, but not for any valid reasons. I put no stock in being so fragile that other people's experiences in their own life can somehow affect mine. Otherwise I'd be flipping tables every day they announce lottery winners.

Basically it's a group of children crying 'hey no fair, that was mine' when told they have to share with other children. This is a lesson we learn as toddlers, yet here we are having discussions with people who hold the same flawed values as adults.

[Fatbeaverlol]

In WOTLK i had the time to raid ALOT. after that i decided i wanted to put more time into school and working out in the gym for better results. Because of this i have less time to play wow this means i cant raid also. LFR is a way for me to get a nice view of the content.

- I aint hardcore anymore
- I was

if LFR is gone i am forced to do pvp if i am bored and i prefer not to do pvp hehe ( btw i stopped AGAIN with wow ) =

[Deleted]

in order to gear up = lfr. To help getting the best gear available = lfr. Which means you see the whole content in a crappy state before maybe clearing it in normal/hc - and you do it just because its expected to do ones best for guilds.

Lei'Shen LFR was available a whole month after he was killable on normal mode.
If you didn't see him by then, your guild just isn't really good.

[Ronduwil]

Yes and no. Gear is simply a means to an end. That end is overcoming the next challenge the game throws at you. Which in turn rewards gear that helps you overcome the next challenge etc etc...

It's sort of a symbiotic thing. We raid to get gear. We want the gear so that we can raid. In the end the fun is delivered by beating obstacles and seeing your character get stronger. Being stronger is important because we want to beat more content.

If that was the case then why does the guildmaster of method have 13 Heroic Deathwing kills under his belt? After all, after beating Heroic Deathwing the first time he had accomplished the goal as you stated it so there was no need for him to get any more gear. Why would he spend an additional 12 weeks in Dragon Soul if not for gear? Since Dragon Soul was the last tier of Cataclysm, that gear was clearly going to be useless after the expansion. Check out his armory if you're skeptical: Method's Guildmaster

You can only state what is fun for yourself. You can't make assumptions about other people's motivations for raiding. That's why all this noise about LFR taking the fun out of raiding is a personal problem for some people as opposed to the root of all evil that is responsible for all sub loss.

[wrynil]

If you are gearing up in LFR, it's because you are raiding for gear. So the content shouldn't matter. Otherwise you would just wait it out in normal in order to see the content the way you claim. Additionally, Flex Raiding will provide a difficulty in between the two.

So it really sounds like your points are and will be invalid.

No its because that is the only easy catch up way now , with gear being better than the former normals. There are no new dungeons which can provide the needed gear to catch up. I know what you are going at - the same shit that you are all saying that if you dont like lfr you shouldn't do it - but no matter what you are trying to say raiders will do what ever they can to get geared in order to help their guilds. There are no place for butthurt lfr hating people who simply wanna skip it and screw over their guild. Flex raiding will not replace lfr but it will make it faster for people to not have to run lfr for gear as it will provide even more gear than we got so far. LFR in itself are just not raiding. It got nothing to do with people not wanting people who do lfr to not see the content. Its about that its not raiding, its unrewarding in any sense, lfr was never the answere in its current form. Gear is/should) a means to get better progression, that does not mean im raiding for gear only. But i do what i can to help my guild the best i can = better gear than what i current got will be a help as better gear will help me in end.

My points are fully valid, even blizzard have recognized this, its only the lfr fanboys who dont. That i dont think we should have a lfr is however my personal opinion and that is not used as a point, only my experience of how endgame raiding guilds' raiders have to progress now. If lfr was same ilvl as the former normal? sure then i truelly wouldnt have to bother. Now i do, and that sickeness me. What is your argument that you need higher ilvl on new lfrs than the former normals, this i would like to hear please.

My point as to lfr was needed for people who could play normals in wotlk couldnt do it no more in cata cause the raids got alot harder tuned stays aswell. Why shouldnt they be able to raid when they did so in a whole expansion? Sure they should. LFR being the right replacement for their lost raid, that i dont agree on.

But you go ahead with your head up your arse, and not argumenting valid points all you like. Atleast i noticed why i can see lfr staying, while you are defending it without thinking of no one but yourself.

[Kelimbror]

No its because that is the only easy catch up way now , with gear being better than the former normals. There are no new dungeons which can provide the needed gear to catch up. I know what you are going at - the same shit that you are all saying that if you dont like lfr you shouldn't do it - but no matter what you are trying to say raiders will do what ever they can to get geared in order to help their guilds.

You clearly don't know what I'm 'going at'. I don't care what you feel about LFR or Normal or Heroic level raiding. It doesn't matter. What I stated is that people raid for gear, not content, as the primary factor. You quoted me in an attempt to disagree, but then provided the exact types of statements that prove me correct.

Thus, your point about content is invalid. You and many others raid for gear. Otherwise, you wouldn't choose the most efficient, or the easiest way to get gear. You aren't forced to suffer the travesty of experiencing content in what you feel is a lesser environment, except for the fact that your motivation is gear and gear alone.

It's more obvious than ever that this is the case now.

In fact, from the horses mouth(front page blue):

Real question, what is the intrinsic value of content? Story/Aesthetic difficulty matters less.
Seeing content and seeing story are both rewards. In WoW, gear just tends to be a more motivating reward for many