Raiding.

[Deleted]

so you just lost a lot of prospective raiders right there. an organized raid with no organized looting.

That is good in my opinion. It encourages you to bring in new trials and new people without "risking" to waste loot on them.

Also, if the drops scaled with the amount of people, it would just encourage people to make multiple flex runs filling them out with alts to funnel gear.
Individual loot works well for flex in my opinion.

Note: Inb4 someone says invidiual loot or flexi mode would be good for normal/heroic raiding. Just no.

[Venant]

So you want even easier access to raiding? What about just putting in the minimal effort and finding a pug yourself? I don't see the need for yet another queue button, it does nothing but serve the lazy.

On top of that you'd lose some of the social aspect that Flex can bring. Cause if you're just going to be put together with x random players, you might as well stick to LFR. No, it's not hard to find a pug, unless you're on a dead server - in which case you have the option of transferring. And with the realms being kinda "merged" via the feature, even low pop realms should be okay in terms of finding other players.

Easier access to raiding, or being able to log on and raid whenever I feel like it? Whats wrong with being able to do that, I can log on Diablo 3 and farm whenever I want to and I can log on Planetside 2 and join an OP whenever I want to. I want to be able to log on to WoW and do real raiding whenever I want to, because everything outside of raiding in WoW is incredibly boring at the moment.

I don't see why you assume that a que button 'does nothing but serve the lazy', it is merely a tool for arranging things so that you can find others who want to do what you are looking to do. The whole infrastructure of this game needs a major overhaul.

[Deleted]

Heroic raiding requires lots of time, which isn't a problem. But the rewards you get, is not enough. So i don't believe we will see more people raiding, atleast not in the higher stages. Too much demands, no gain.

Hope the different.

[Osmeric]

I expect we'll see a decline in Normal raiders, but more of a decline in LFR raiders.

I think there will be a decline in LFR next tier, but not because LFR raiders are moving to Flex. Instead, I expect a lot of LFR raiders to clear the raid once and then be done with raiding for the expansion. I don't think many of them have kept up with the legendary quest chain, so they'll be undergeared for Flex and above. And if LFR is all they're doing, what do they need to keep gearing up for in it?

Normal mode participation is already falling even without Flex, and I expect, as you do, that some normal mode guilds will move to Flex only.

I think the tail end of MoP is going to continue to see large sub declines, perhaps worse than Cataclysm saw.

[MoonLightAngel]

the thing is why normal raiding is failing is because a lot of guilds don't want people to be part of their raid team if you have no exp in raiding at all and especialy no exp in the current tier its hard for a lot of new players to get into raiding guilds and take part in it with no knowage of raiding not all guilds are like that just some because some will actually take time to teach you.

[Marmot]

the thing is why normal raiding is failing is because a lot of guilds don't want people to be part of their raid team if you have no exp in raiding at all and especialy no exp in the current tier its hard for a lot of new players to get into raiding guilds and take part in it with no knowage of raiding not all guilds are like that just some because some will actually take time to teach you.

I've been in two guilds that have given people a chance with only LFR experience, and most of them recruits did nothing but stand and turret the boss, e.g. on Durumu, during the phase with the red, blue and yellow floor cone things, they would be told to go stand in the yellow one, but they would just stand still and dps the boss (and do less than 100k in 510+ gear).

A lot of guilds want to avoid recruiting people with no experience, because they are likely to have either poor tactical execution, or poor dps (or both). It's generally manageable in a 10 man guild to carry such a player through, but when it comes to 25 mans, it begins to show and the raid suffers as a result.

[judgementofantonidas]

I've been in two guilds that have given people a chance with only LFR experience, and most of them recruits did nothing but stand and turret the boss, e.g. on Durumu, during the phase with the red, blue and yellow floor cone things, they would be told to go stand in the yellow one, but they would just stand still and dps the boss (and do less than 100k in 510+ gear).

A lot of guilds want to avoid recruiting people with no experience, because they are likely to have either poor tactical execution, or poor dps (or both). It's generally manageable in a 10 man guild to carry such a player through, but when it comes to 25 mans, it begins to show and the raid suffers as a result.

I was right with you till you said that a 10 man group can carry one baddie easier than a 25 man group. then your logic took a flush.

[Deleted]

I was right with you till you said that a 10 man group can carry one baddie easier than a 25 man group. then your logic took a flush.

I dont know, but I find it increidbly easy to carry baddies in 10's, it of course matter what type of content you are talking about, but 12/12 normal can easily be done with 6-7 players without heroic gear.

For the heroic content it of course gets harder to carry "bads", just as it does in 25 man, but you could still probably 7-9 man the earlier heroics, like Jin, Tortos, Ji-Kun and Twins without completely overgearing it.

People make it sound like carrying people in 10 man is impossible, it is far from. Sure you can afford to carry bads if you are going for a world 100 rank, but you cant do that in 25s either so.

[judgementofantonidas]

I dont know, but I find it increidbly easy to carry baddies in 10's, it of course matter what type of content you are talking about, but 12/12 normal can easily be done with 6-7 players without heroic gear.

For the heroic content it of course gets harder to carry "bads", just as it does in 25 man, but you could still probably 7-9 man the earlier heroics, like Jin, Tortos, Ji-Kun and Twins without completely overgearing it.

People make it sound like carrying people in 10 man is impossible, it is far from. Sure you can afford to carry bads if you are going for a world 100 rank, but you cant do that in 25s either so.

it is not impossible to carry a baddie and get content down in a ten man that is not what I am stating. matter of fact we are carrying two baddies right now. however it is just mathematically stupid to state that a 9 person raid would have LESS difficulty than a 24 player raid with the current level of difficulty.

[Deleted]

it is not impossible to carry a baddie and get content down in a ten man that is not what I am stating. matter of fact we are carrying two baddies right now. however it is just mathematically stupid to state that a 9 person raid would have LESS difficulty than a 24 player raid with the current level of difficulty.

it's not impossible, but lets face it most guild can just about clear the current tuning of normal with their best available and carrying isn't an option.

Different story for the best of the best now all decked out in the HC TF stuff, obviously. But lets talk about what happens for most raiders, not the top 250 guilds in the world.

[judgementofantonidas]

it's not impossible, but lets face it most guild can just about clear the current tuning of normal with their best available and carrying isn't an option.

Different story for the best of the best now all decked out in the HC TF stuff, obviously. But lets talk about what happens for most raiders, not the top 250 guilds in the world.

I am speaking from a completely casual normal mode perspective, as my signature would denote. You can not be much more (slightly below) average than my group, having full cleared regular modes just prior to the next raid content patch.

[Deleted]

the thing is why normal raiding is failing is because a lot of guilds don't want people to be part of their raid team if you have no exp in raiding at all and especialy no exp in the current tier its hard for a lot of new players to get into raiding guilds and take part in it with no knowage of raiding not all guilds are like that just some because some will actually take time to teach you.

Wherever I went, this was completely wronged but if you don't have any experience you can't just say "take me pls". Many guilds want the applicant to present himself in their forum and I've seen COUNTLESS people just refusing to do so because it doesn't feel natural to them. New recruits would have to optimize their equipment and their DPS, which is not something everyone would actually do ; they'd have to farm potions (because you need at the very least 1 per pull and most often 2 per fight) and flasks and also some food, which LFR-players aren't accustomated with ; they also have to sum up each raid night to see what was wrong and what could be improved.
Now go to LfR and tell me who looks reliable and ready to do all of those things ? Nevertheless, guilds won't EVER close their door to someone who gave a good impression through an application and looked ready to do his best. If the guild does refuse such a player, then it either don't need the class of the applicant OR is just bad enough for him not to miss anything - otherwise the applicant didn't look good/persuasive enough whatsoever.

Now I must admit that it is harder for 10-man guilds because a tenth of the raid simply can't be carried as easily (actually I don't know much about it) but there are sooooooo many 10-guilds that you will always find one to start with, then jump to another and so on. Don't know why Hontardicus said it was harder in 25-man to carry someone, maybe was he talking about the first weeks of a new raid ? They know that you won't catch up to their top 5 DPS anytime soon so when they take someone, they kind of rush them some stuff and watch how the applicant is doing meanwhile.
By the way, I hope you were not saying that the heroic raiders of a guild would go on normal mode to "help" new applicant ? Why would they waste a week except if they already gathered their BiS ? One or two new players can join an heroic raid without making it impossible (albeit it does make it harder) but forcing 8 or 20 people to go on normal to test someone, except if they're rerolls... No way !

[NeverStop]

I dont know, but I find it increidbly easy to carry baddies in 10's, it of course matter what type of content you are talking about, but 12/12 normal can easily be done with 6-7 players without heroic gear.

For the heroic content it of course gets harder to carry "bads", just as it does in 25 man, but you could still probably 7-9 man the earlier heroics, like Jin, Tortos, Ji-Kun and Twins without completely overgearing it.

People make it sound like carrying people in 10 man is impossible, it is far from. Sure you can afford to carry bads if you are going for a world 100 rank, but you cant do that in 25s either so.

It's impossible to carry a full retard on H Jin'rokh because of Ionization. Yes, there are people that lack the mental capacity to track a 20 second debuff on them.

[Deleted]

It's impossible to carry a full retard on H Jin'rokh because of Ionization. Yes, there are people that lack the mental capacity to track a 20 second debuff on them.

Plenty of them.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mag...s_or_Minus_Two

[judgementofantonidas]

Wherever I went, this was completely wronged but if you don't have any experience you can't just say "take me pls". Many guilds want the applicant to present himself in their forum and I've seen COUNTLESS people just refusing to do so because it doesn't feel natural to them. New recruits would have to optimize their equipment and their DPS, which is not something everyone would actually do ; they'd have to farm potions (because you need at the very least 1 per pull and most often 2 per fight) and flasks and also some food, which LFR-players aren't accustomated with ; they also have to sum up each raid night to see what was wrong and what could be improved.
Now go to LfR and tell me who looks reliable and ready to do all of those things ? Nevertheless, guilds won't EVER close their door to someone who gave a good impression through an application and looked ready to do his best. If the guild does refuse such a player, then it either don't need the class of the applicant OR is just bad enough for him not to miss anything - otherwise the applicant didn't look good/persuasive enough whatsoever.

Now I must admit that it is harder for 10-man guilds because a tenth of the raid simply can't be carried as easily (actually I don't know much about it) but there are sooooooo many 10-guilds that you will always find one to start with, then jump to another and so on. Don't know why Hontardicus said it was harder in 25-man to carry someone, maybe was he talking about the first weeks of a new raid ? They know that you won't catch up to their top 5 DPS anytime soon so when they take someone, they kind of rush them some stuff and watch how the applicant is doing meanwhile.
By the way, I hope you were not saying that the heroic raiders of a guild would go on normal mode to "help" new applicant ? Why would they waste a week except if they already gathered their BiS ? One or two new players can join an heroic raid without making it impossible (albeit it does make it harder) but forcing 8 or 20 people to go on normal to test someone, except if they're rerolls... No way !

some simple questions that I ask during an initial contact with a player:

what is your current progression I have full cleared lfr leads to further questioning
what is progression? explain then ask again
I have never raided explain that we can invite as f&f for 90 days
this is a game not a job sorry we are full on your class best of luck

what is your age? you can bracket it. between 18 and 25 leads to further questioning
14 sorry we are an adult only guild best of luck
wtf business is it of yours? we are an adult only guild, best of luck to you


these are only two of the questions that we ask, however you can see that the answers to neither of them are disqualifiers unless the player does not meet a very specific and generous criteria or decides to take the avenue of being reluctant to give strait answers to strait questions.

- - - Updated - - -

It's impossible to carry a full retard on H Jin'rokh because of Ionization. Yes, there are people that lack the mental capacity to track a 20 second debuff on them.

one of my favorite things to hear as a raid leader, after ten minute of pre pull discussion including raid markers and individual assignments prior to moving on a new boss is "ok so what color am I standing on"?

[Deleted]

It's impossible to carry a full retard on H Jin'rokh because of Ionization. Yes, there are people that lack the mental capacity to track a 20 second debuff on them.

You can though completely remove him from the group and 8 man the boss, alternatively if you want him in on the kill, make him die in a corner or whatever.

[cyqu]

People are lazy and just want to see the content, and get the gear. So everyone does lfr. What's the point of doing normal/heroic when you can just log on and queue lfr blow through it mindlessly and be done for the week.

[Marmot]

I was right with you till you said that a 10 man group can carry one baddie easier than a 25 man group. then your logic took a flush.

When I said that I wasn't being very clear, but I meant that if you took a proportional amount of players with no experience in a 25 man, it starts to affect things a bit more.

[Deleted]

When I said that I wasn't being very clear, but I meant that if you took a proportional amount of players with no experience in a 25 man, it starts to affect things a bit more.

Often in a 25 man raid it is also enough to have 1 player not knowing what he is doing to cause a wipe. That became painfully aware will progressing Omnitron Defense System in both 10H and 25H at the same time (main run and alt run).

For example mechanics such as the lightning conduit being transformed into a shadow conduit, that is something that easily wiped the raid if the target didnt know what to do. In 25 man, there was 23 people that needed to learn that ability (tanks cant get hit) compared to 8 people in 10 man. The difference was that in 25 man, the same player could go 2 progress raids without ever being targeted, so even after 50+ wipes, we still wiped several times because people got hit by it for the first time. In 10 man it was much much easier since it went faster for players to learn it, as it was 12.5% chance for the players to get it. So people got to practice and learn the ability faster. Same went for other abilities that tier like the Lightning Rod on Ascendant Council. 1 player failing on that meant an insta wipe. In 25 man it targeted 3 players, so you had 200% bigger chance of failure. Not to even with the orbs on heroic.

On fights like that, carrying a bad was impossible, everyone had to know what to do (or pray to the RNG gods that they never got targeted by said spell).

[MoanaLisa]

I think the better cleanup in the clusterfuck we got now would be removing LFR, flex is great, flex is what LFR should have been from the start, I feel like now that flex is here, lfr serve no function.

Random groups available any time will stay, which is LFR's function, much as you may disapprove.

To answer the question in the OP: No, some LFR people will add flex to what they do and some normal raiders will drop down to flex. And the game will continue to get smaller over time. So I don't see how that leads to more normal/heroic raiders.

One thing that might improve will be the connected realms thing making a wider pool of players available to guilds. But they'll still need to pass guild entrance requirements some of which are ridiculous and off-putting to people.