Are we really that bad?

[lordsphinx]

What I don't get is why the guy told you those things? I'm at 13/13 heroic, too and there are a lot of guilds that raid as much as my group or even more and are still in the middle of the raid-content. However there is no need to tell them about those facts..
Did you provoke the guy?

We pugged someone (and he knew going into it that we were 6/13). We had a couple wipes on Tortos, which we only killed once before, and he just raged on me and the group. Turns out that was an alt of his and his main was 13/13H.

He knew going into it that we weren't going to clear that night, and I had expected the night to end after Durumu. We were going to be working on H Prim the next night. We had plenty of time, and we still got to where we wanted with a diff pug, but the dude still got to me. I suppose he was pissed because he was worried about being locked to 3/13. That totally wasn't the case, and we got to exactly where we planned to get to.

[Tziva]

Stastically, 6/13HM is way above average.

Generally, I think that's pretty good progress considering your hours are probably less than many similar guilds.

Finally, ignore the asshole. He's just being a jerk to be a jerk.

[jearle]

Unless provoked for some reason anyone who flexes their epeen over virtual achievements in a video game is a fucking douchebag.

You have to look at time invested in these types of things as well. 9 hours a week isn't a ton of time and you need to factor that in as well.

The Horseman one of the top (if not top) 9 hour/week raiding guild in the world killed Lei Shen HC 6/17.
Paragon killed Lei Shen Heroic almost 3 months earlier, but of course those guilds have insane raiding schedules with large amount of hours involved.

Most of the guilds that are 13/13 at this point raid alot more than 9 hours a week. But as other have said, make a goal for yourself and work on that.

Good luck in the future and don't let the virtual douchebags get you down.

[Adsertif]

He probably holds you to the standards a guild that is 13/13 would hold their players to, it's your style of raiding the way you like it -- not his. Being 1/2 hardcore 1/2 casual the casual isn't all gone, you don't want progression raiding to be a job that's probably more serious than most jobs out there today.

[judgementofantonidas]

Heya all,

OK, so this is really going to look like I’m trying to get a pat on the back, but that’s not the case… I’m the raid leader for a semi-hardcore 6/13H group (9hrs / week), and I was recently told by a much higher progressed player that my group was complete garbage and we should have cleared 13/13H by now. The guy basically called us baddies, “you got no ranks”, "L2P", etc etc. Would you guys consider 6/13H to be an average group, or are we really that far behind? Up until now I have been happy with our progression, but I just can’t seem to get this douchebag out of my head. I know I’m being sensitive here lol, but it’s really bothering me.

that is absolute b.s. progression rates are purely personal.

many guilds never complete one heroic boss.

let him wave his epeen at someone who cares

[Deleted]

Its just a matter of opinion and who you ask, im a guild master, we're currently 10/13, with 5.4 in 2 weeks we officially failed as a guild cause we didn't reach the goals we set up. But i would never ever think we suck cause some random dude thinks so, fuck em

[Deleted]

Use the ignore function. If your raiders are happy with the progress and your having fun, thats all there is to it. 6/13hc on a 9hr week is modest progress and 10x better than a million other guilds.

[stormgust]

We've been raiding 6 hours/week and are currently at 9/13 hc. Though, we only managed to get above 4hc after we recruited our paladin tank, who trivialized quite a lot of encounters [in the sense of: it's not really heroic anymore, more like a slightly difficult normal mode].

So i'm inclined to say: it entirely depends on your raid setup. If you only go with below average specs [i.e. shadow priests or hunter] and are using warri/dk tank combination, I'd say 6/12 is perfectly fine. If on the other hand you have above average [in terms of what the spec is capable of] DPS classes, as well as a paladin [even better when paired with a brewmaster] tank, then 6/13 hc on 9 hours/week means, that there are quite a few players in your raid not performing at the level at which they should.

[Kalmah]

Stastically, 6/13HM is way above average.

Please, stop using "statistics" as an argument. It's completely meaningless without the proper context.

6/13 Hc might be way above average if you look at the whole raiding population. But when you're raiding 9 hours a week, you aren't the average case to begin with. Just looking at my server, there's maybe 10% of the guilds listed on wowprogress that actually raid 3 nights a week or more. The median progress of those guilds is about 8/13 Hc.

So no, 6/13 Hc is certainly not way above average for a guild raiding 9 hours a week.

[Aensland]

Bad? Nah, but of course, everyone has room for improvement. To put things in perspective, I've been stuck on 1/13HC for 5 weeks now. We raid 9 hours a week, and consist of 520-536ilvl (I'm 526ilvl btw).

[kilj]

Your not bad... My self am 6/13H. Our guild finally just got H Horridon to put us up to 3/13H we plan on getting qon this week as well. But honestly we raid 3 nights a week 7.5 Hours total. Your a lot head of us.

[Inthislzon]

When did 6/13 become being bad?

If we were talking about 6/12 normal... maybe. But 6/13 heroic? Not even close to bad

[Tziva]

Please, stop using "statistics" as an argument. It's completely meaningless without the proper context.

6/13 Hc might be way above average if you look at the whole raiding population. But when you're raiding 9 hours a week, you aren't the average case to begin with. Just looking at my server, there's maybe 10% of the guilds listed on wowprogress that actually raid 3 nights a week or more. The median progress of those guilds is about 8/13 Hc.

So no, 6/13 Hc is certainly not way above average for a guild raiding 9 hours a week.

It's not an argument and it's true. 6/13 HM is, objectively, way above average for raiding progress. What is the problem with evaluating in the context of the total raiding population? Nothing; it's totally valid. The claim is that they suck, not that their time management is less efficient than it should be.

Whether it's bad for those particular hours is up for debate. Ranking sites generally don't log hours unless you actually want to go through and check parses yourself and add 'em up, and your anecdotal example of your server isn't really any more useful than an educated guess. And even if one did, consider that a lot of guilds have significantly scaled back their hours this late into the tier. It's not really fair to classify many high progress guilds as two night a week raids when in reality they were doing three and four or five days a week when the tier first launched.

Aside from that, even if a lot of the better guilds raid less hours isn't taking into account the huge piles of lesser guilds that might be putting in the same amount of hours or even more. You can't only look at one side of the curve and declare a pattern.

I'm under the impression that the majority of hardcore guilds put in more than nine hours a week during a tier, especially taking into account the front loaded hours early on. Maybe I'm wrong and most nine hour raids are further along in progress, but your counterarguement of "several of the guilds on my server put in less hours and are further along" isn't really any more legitimate than my educated guess.

In any case, 6/13HM? Still way above average.

[Seriss]

The average raider is wiping to Lei Shen normal mode (or something like that). So, by having half of ToT down on heroic you're well above average. And 9 hours a week really aren't much to work with in a raid instance that's linear and very long. Now if we went and only looked at raids that have killed at least one heroic boss, you're still better than looooooads of people (seriously 37.xx% of the raiding population have killed JinRokh, not even half of that have killed Tortos!)

You're doing okay. And at the end of the day, you have to be okay with your progress, and your guildies have to be satisfied with it as well. That's all that's important. 12-14something people that are all on the same level in regards to their expectations. For as long as that is being maintained, all is well, and you can tell everyone who tells you otherwise to get lost.

[Kalmah]

but your counterarguement of "several of the guilds on my server put in less hours and are further along" isn't really any more legitimate than my educated guess.

Try reading again. That wasn't my argument at all.

My argument is that among guilds that raid 3-4 nights a week, 6/13 Hc is nowhere near above average. It might not be bad, but it's certainly not good.

[marklar]

While we do focus on killing bosses, we don’t do it at the expense of our group (the majority of us have been together since ToGC). We have a core of e-friends who have played together forever, and that’s what really matters to me the most.

this is exactly the difference between raid groups like yours (and mine) and the guilds that are 13/13H and telling you that your progress is "bad" or "below average". those guilds have higher expectations on individual performance and will replace under-performers much more quickly.

it's also a matter of your goal. is your goal to reach the end as quickly as possible so you can then farm the raid as quickly as possible so you can then clear the next raid as quickly as possible, etc, etc? if so, you're way behind. but if your goal is to raid with people you like, clear some heroics and have fun, then only you can say if you've been successful.

if it makes you feel any better, my group raids 3x3h a week and we're only 4/13H. of course, summer means we only get our core group together about half the time, mostly due to enjoying things outside of WoW a bit. i'm not bothered that most of our boss kills take us 3-4x longer than they "should", because i like hanging out with the people i raid with.

[reflection]

Same here. Currently we are at 8/13 HC. I think this is pretty good. If you compare it to all those super hardcore guilds you will see that they invest nearly the same time to get the progression. I heard that they raid 14-16 hours during progression and that for nearly 3 weeks. 3 * 7 * 15 = 315 hours in 3 weeks. If you compare that to the semi hardcore guild that does 9 hours a week it would take them 35 weeks to have the same amount of time spent. Of course the super hardcore guilds have better players and less gear, but a large deal is the amount of time they invest. So I think it's perfectly viable to not get through the complete content with this setup. Even more because in those kind of guilds you sometimes also have to play a suboptimal setup or you have to skip a raid because of some people missing due to RL issues.

[Schma]

No you aren't that bad. Have you done LFR in a while? The only thing you did wrong that I can see is not putting that douchebag on /ignore.

Keep up the good work, and as long as your raid is having fun and relatively drama free, who cares!

[Deleted]

That's not something an outsider can judge.

You have to measure your progress against the expectations and aspirations of your own raid leaders and your own raiders: if you're happy with what you've achieved, be proud of it! If you're not, look at ways you can improve, but still be proud of what you've achieved so far, it's a world further than the vast majority of players have gone. And you clearly have the capacity to go much further if you all want to and are prepared to put the effort in.

It's not an argument and it's true. 6/13 HM is, objectively, way above average for raiding progress.

Snipped much of it, but this ^^, and all the rest of that post

[clevin]

Ignore the douchebag. As long as you're having fun who cares what they think.

^this. I hate assholes like that...