Sacred Shield vs Eternal Flame 5.4 [PROT]

[ElChig]

I'll wait for you guys to figure out this EF vs SS mess on a boss per boss basis Just wanted to add that maybe the legendary cloak proc will help with big spiky abilities when using EF instead of having to go SS for those situations? Would be nice to use it on cd instead of having it there "just in case".

[Deja Thoris]

I'll wait for you guys to figure out this EF vs SS mess on a boss per boss basis Just wanted to add that maybe the legendary cloak proc will help with big spiky abilities when using EF instead of having to go SS for those situations? Would be nice to use it on cd instead of having it there "just in case".

If the cloak procs you fucked up. If you fuck up once every 2 minutes then yeah :/

[Riemu2k3]

I'll wait for you guys to figure out this EF vs SS mess on a boss per boss basis Just wanted to add that maybe the legendary cloak proc will help with big spiky abilities when using EF instead of having to go SS for those situations? Would be nice to use it on cd instead of having it there "just in case".

Why on earth would you want to include a proc that literally saves you from dying into your rotation on a general basis!? You shouldn't be in any near-death situation in the first place, let alone die. If you plan on dying every 2 minutes, you are doing something seriously wrong. And whether or not you use EF over SS doesn't really matter.

And, there is nothing to wait for. The SS vs EF stuff has already been figured out. There will not be any accurate boss-per-boss basis, as everything is entirly bases on your raid, difficulty, composition, skill and what not.

You need to figure out for yourself whether or not you want to use SS or EF and at what point it's better for your to switch.

As a general rule of thumb if you wanna call it that - you should switch over from SS to EF when you have 4pt16. (other factors count into that one aswell, but if you dont wanna read this thread / make up your own mind, than thats the advice I can give you).

[Jackielope]

And I said specific boss fights. Seems pretty silly to quote me with generalised stats.when I very specifically talked about specific boss fights

And thus, both of us talking about different things will lead to some more discussion and hopefully give others a better idea of what to do because, as I said, having both some baseline information and the knowledge that changing the baseline for some fights is needed. You may not have needed the simulations showing EF was edging ahead in generalized stats, but others are not so well versed in the game to be able to predict that.

There is more than one side to everything.

I'll wait for you guys to figure out this EF vs SS mess on a boss per boss basis Just wanted to add that maybe the legendary cloak proc will help with big spiky abilities when using EF instead of having to go SS for those situations? Would be nice to use it on cd instead of having it there "just in case".

EF has been shown, generally, to lower the effect of spikes better than SS in 5.4: http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/09/04/ef-you/. As Theck points out, however, bosses that challenge your instantaneous health with effects like Decapitate and Talon Rake will tend to lead one to prefer SS since the extra absorption at that instant is better than the healing from EF a fraction of a second later.

[Raxxed]

If the cloak procs you fucked up. If you fuck up once every 2 minutes then yeah :/

We've come a long way from 'if you die its the healers fault' to 'if you die its your fault'..

[rhandric]

We've come a long way from 'if you die its the healers fault' to 'if you die its your fault'..

It's a combination of both. But if you're using the cloak as a crutch (maybe so you can use your cds when you shouldn't need a cd, or whatever else), someone in the process fucked up. Now, if it's a situation of, I need N cds in T timeframe, but only have N-1...well, if N-1 includes external cds, well, the cloak would be worthwhile (but it's unlikely that content would be designed around that).

[Deja Thoris]

We've come a long way from 'if you die its the healers fault' to 'if you die its your fault'..

Well, could be either one of the two. The context that it was quoted in was somebody wanting to build the cloak pro into his rotation though which is just crazy.

[xebtria]

We've come a long way from 'if you die its the healers fault' to 'if you die its your fault'..

that is pretty much caused by the change to active mitigation.

of course, if the healers just don't heal and you die because of that, it is still the healer's fault. but if the healers do what they can and you come close to near-death-situations, it's pretty certain, that it is your own fault. and that is actually a good thing, imo.

[Sukoidha]

Is there a way to set up tell me when to show to use EF at 4 - 5 stacks? or even a weakaura?

[rhandric]

Is there a way to set up tell me when to show to use EF at 4 - 5 stacks? or even a weakaura?

I'm sure there is; Theck is updating his weakaura's soon to indicate when the current HoPo+BoG(+Vengeance) would be indicative of a good time to recast EF

[Sukoidha]

ok cool, should i just expect it on his blog?

[rhandric]

He'll probably post a blog about it, but you can find his weakauras at http://pastebin.com/u/Theck

[Sukoidha]

ahhh, thank you, new to pally tanking, Dk is my main, but i still want to know my shit for alt runs

[pld]

Is there a way to set up tell me when to show to use EF at 4 - 5 stacks? or even a weakaura?

This is a more roundabout way, but I currently track Vengeance levels, BoG stacks, and timer on EF (if cast) using a combination of TMW and WA.

I played around with EF for a little bit this weekend and found that having all that info available was helpful opposed to just having EF light up at a certain point. If you want less clutter, i'm sure Theck's WA string will be a good tool when he releases that though.

[Alisiya]

Personally when playing with EF and SS during lfr testing i found that burst fights SS worked out better for me and more sustained damage fights EF worked out better. I found it a little awkward using a HoT as a tank but I'll get used to that during progression!

[Nuttypoolog]

I am actually looking forward to trying out eternal flame

[ElChig]

I'll wait for you guys to figure out this EF vs SS mess on a boss per boss basis Just wanted to add that maybe the legendary cloak proc will help with big spiky abilities when using EF instead of having to go SS for those situations? Would be nice to use it on cd instead of having it there "just in case".

EF has been shown, generally, to lower the effect of spikes better than SS in 5.4: http://www.sacredduty.net/2013/09/04/ef-you/. As Theck points out, however, bosses that challenge your instantaneous health with effects like Decapitate and Talon Rake will tend to lead one to prefer SS since the extra absorption at that instant is better than the healing from EF a fraction of a second later.

My mistake. I should have said "1-shot mechanics" instead of "big spiky abilities" as you are right, according to Theck's post EF is better than SS on spiky non-lethal hits because none of the giant EF ticks will overheal after a damage spike. I was just thinking the tank legendary cloak might be useful for a situation where we want to use EF for optimal survivability but feel forced to go SS due to 1 or 2 scary 1-shot boss hits. The cloak would be a good substitute for SS allowing us to keep EF.

[Nairobi]

My mistake. I should have said "1-shot mechanics" instead of "big spiky abilities" as you are right, according to Theck's post EF is better than SS on spiky non-lethal hits because none of the giant EF ticks will overheal after a damage spike. I was just thinking the tank legendary cloak might be useful for a situation where we want to use EF for optimal survivability but feel forced to go SS due to 1 or 2 scary 1-shot boss hits. The cloak would be a good substitute for SS allowing us to keep EF.

Of course anything non-zero can't be ignored, but...Given what I've seen last night, SS isn't taking nearly the edge off of those big hits that I was hoping for. We only worked through Dark Shamans, but I used SS on all fights (minus trying EF on shamans for something, but I was drunk, and it didn't work). Here's what I found:

Immerseus: Lul, was that a boss? We accidentally 8manned this while waiting for raiders to get on, on first pull...Either way, the tank-swap forcing ability will gib you regardless of SS size unless you have CD's, so really, EF seems better here with the phase swaps and aoe damage. His actual tank damage is pretty negligible.

Lotus people: I had Rook, so can only comment on him, but I think EF would have fared better here than SS, since it would pad up some of the damage taken from the frontal cone/stun better than SS.

Norushen: No real feeling either way. V levels very low throughout so SS was weak, but nothing screamed EF to me either.

Sha: I guess SS? Again, very basic and no feelings either way.

Galakras: Probably EF, as I was on tower duty and ended up speeding up the stairs alone quite a few times to get started on them. I used SS and had no issues, but EF seems like it would allow a bit "looser" play. V levels were low outside of war-banners going down, which is another strike against SS.

Iron Jug: Def EF here. SS didn't take the edge off of bombs very well, and I found myself having to WOG up more often than I'd like. Add in siege-mode, and EF is a clear winner.

Shamans: I liked SS here, just because you can abuse V with the wolves/oozes to get moderate shields. EF likely isn't bad, but I was staying topped pretty well, which makes me think SS takes this one (for now).


Again, this is just my off-the-cuff judgement so far. The only reason I'm apprehensive to use EF now is because of the DPS/ShotR loss, but once I get 4t16, it'll be EF and no looking back.

[trystero]

Again, this is just my off-the-cuff judgement so far. The only reason I'm apprehensive to use EF now is because of the DPS/ShotR loss, but once I get 4t16, it'll be EF and no looking back.

What were your absorbs from SS?

I rolled with EF last night and plan to do it tonight, and I was surprised by its power; I didn't expect such massive ticks. But the opportunity cost is legitimate; 6 HP/minute isn't trivial. Not to mention, I hated the ramp up time so much that I got frustrated and talented HA for the first time in months.

[Cheekun]

Gotta report in with the general consensus as everyone else here. Raided last night for a bit and managed to get to and down pride, I decided to try out the reworked EF and it was amazing, my vengence levels weren't particularly amazing and i consistently saw it hitting me for 150k~ ticks. Now, EF has a large uptime, so the minimal loss in ShotR uptime is more then made up for in the self healing department. This is going to be super overpowered with our t16, but even now its clearly outshining SS on most fights. (Spiky damage can easily be dealt with a cooldown or ShoTR usage, followed by a tick of EF and your already in the clear, and because the damage spike is going to peak your vengence, it'll allow for a optimal reapply of EF for increased healing).