This is Thrall's Fault

[Deleted]

So honoring his best friends memory but trying to give his only living son the position, without knowing what kind of a dick he'd turn out to be, makes Thrall liable for what garrosh has done.

HE BLOODY WELL KNEW ALL ALONG!

Thrall FOUGHT Garrosh before WotLK because Garrosh didnt liked Thrall's way!
Thrall saw what Garrosh does when he see Varian during Ulduar trailer!
Thrall was there during Northrend Colloseum and heard Garrosh's snide comments!

He was warned by Cairne, Vol'jin, Saurfang.

But hey! honoring your Garrosh-nii-san is more important!

http://up-ship.com/blog/wp-content/u...4/03/derp3.jpg

Man, you people are a piece of work. You all loooove your scapegoats, rather then actually acknowledging the real problem, usually yourselves.

Ad Hominem. You lose 5 credability points.

Anakin skywalker.

oh, is obi wan responsible for what he became?

People are just wanting a scapegoat because there those kind of people.

Obi Wan was not aware of Anakin's growing corruption. He was shocked by what happened in the Jedi Temple FOR A REASON.
Sorry but this comparison is simply FALSE!

Infracted. Removed the [IMG] coding as well.

[Trassk]

To Varian's defense though he did want to end Garrosh there, but by Alliance hands (for obvious reasons), but honestly if we were to blame anyone for Garrosh living it would be Taran Zhu and the Pandarean for taking him to a trial.

Taran Zhu was just a stupid ass panda, who because of mists pandaren are now more reviled now then just being thought of as a joke character before.
Cause and effect, we have this alternative timeline bullshit because of Varian. I might agree that we had a in faction war because Thrall made the mistake of putting Garrosh in power, but since this is a blame game thread might as well put all the cards on the table. At least Thrall came and faced Garrosh down, and did kill him.

And wow Dzudzadzo, it must be so creative of you to link something said a year ago in relevance to now. You want a cookie?

[Mawnix]

I believe he wanted to give Garrosh a chance to become a better leader despite his aggresive attitude towards everyone except the orcs. But as we know,power corrupts.. and Garrosh didn't even need much to become paranoid.

Garrosh was filled with fear and uncertainty, even when he took the position of leader with the Warsong Offensive.

He subbed in pride and hubris for that fear and uncertainty, just like his father did, and now look where he is.

Only difference is that Grom, in the end, actually took responsibility for his actions, while Garrosh didn't.

It was Thrall's choice to trust Garrosh, and due to that everything that happened IS his fault.

But he obviously didn't do it intentionally. No one could've seen what Garrosh would become coming...

[Wildberry]

He was warned by Cairne, Vol'jin, Saurfang.

I'm going to need you to provide a source for Vol'jin and Saurfang's warnings (Specifically to Thrall).

Cairne was the one that warned Thrall in The Shattering. Neither Saurfang, nor Vol'jin warned Thrall of anything prior to his decision.

[Deleted]

I'm going to need you to provide a source for Vol'jin and Saurfang's warnings (Specifically to Thrall).

Cairne was the one that warned Thrall in The Shattering. Neither Saurfang, nor Vol'jin warned Thrall of anything prior to his decision.

If I recall correctly Vol'jin had an in-game event where he talked with Thrall image through a burning brezier regarding Garrosh's leadership.
Either way the fact remains that Thrall had more than enough warnings to realize that putting Garrosh's as a Warchief was a very bad idea that would bring more bad than good.

[TS26]

don't blame thrall for blizzard's terrible writing.

Garrosh's personality was different EVERY single expansion. Thrall had no way of knowing garrosh's personality would change this much.

[lunchbox2042]

It's not like the council that Thrall put in place to guide Garrosh was much help. Cairne challenged him to Mok'gora, Vol'Jin went and hid in his little village while pouting and Saurfang and Eitrigg did nothing to help Garrosh either. All of those people could have helped Garrosh lead the Horde but none could see past their jealousy to do so. Now we're stuck with a coward for a Warchief.

[Roamingstorm]

It's not like the council that Thrall put in place to guide Garrosh was much help. Cairne challenged him to Mok'gora, Vol'Jin went and hid in his little village while pouting and Saurfang and Eitrigg did nothing to help Garrosh either. All of those people could have helped Garrosh lead the Horde but none could see past their jealousy to do so. Now we're stuck with a coward for a Warchief.

^This^

Thrall entrusted these people to help him out, but instead viewed him as a warmonger when he wanted to expand for resources for the Horde. Hell the guy even was willing to do a cease fire since the druids of both the Horde and Alliance were going to have a meeting in Ashenvale, but Twilight Cultist killed them and made it look it was Garrosh who did it. This ONE event changed EVERYTHING. It killed the Alliance trust with Garrosh and ended up getting Cairne killed because he jumped to conclusions with out proof.

Thrall left amazing people to support him, but none of them did, even before he was Warchief.

[Lime]

Funny thing about advisors: they can't *force* their advice to be taken. Garrosh listened to all of them, and rejected their advice. Do you forget that Garrosh was already challenging Thrall when he was still Warchief? That he and Vol'jin were heated from the start of Cataclysm and that Cairne challenged Garrosh to the Mak'gora to remove his ass from power after he continually insulted and derided him?

Oh I remember that stuff, that's the reason these advisers did such a piss poor job. Every single one of those alliances were still salvageable. Did Garrosh create friction? Oh yeah, but it wasn't the end of the world.

Cairne was suppose to advise him and he jumps the gun and challenges a superior to a deathmatch. Great lesson to teach Garrosh, right? Don't like someone, try to kill them.

Vol'jin was suppose to advise him and the second the friction arises, he starts slinging death threats at Garrosh non-stop for 2 expansions. Oh yeah, that's totally going to smooth things over. I guess Garrosh took Cairne's lesson to heart: Don't like someone, try to kill them.

Thinking that Garrosh is a bad leader is one thing, but they both took things too far. The other races had to put up with the racial friction as well, but none of the others were advisers nor did they say, "Hurr durr Ima kill you". Closest would be Lor'themar who simply entertained the thought of leaving the Horde, but never actually did.

Like I said, Garrosh did a lot wrong, but Green Jesus and his advisers aren't flawless either.

[Wildberry]

If I recall correctly Vol'jin had an in-game event where he talked with Thrall image through a burning brezier regarding Garrosh's leadership.
Either way the fact remains that Thrall had more than enough warnings to realize that putting Garrosh's as a Warchief was a very bad idea that would bring more bad than good.

That was after Thrall appointed Garrosh... The entire conversation revolves around Vol'jin talking about leaving the Horde because he's unhappy with Garrosh's direction.

[Kellorion]

He was the de facto leader of The Horde in Northrend, was The Horde not victorious?

No, the Argent Crusade was. The Horde/Alliance was in Ulduar, which he had no part of.

[Coronius]

I agree.

I used to like Thrall in WC3 and early WoW, but he's slowly grown into a character I've learned to heavily dislike. He's probably just a victim of bad writing, but it still falls on him.

[LilSaihah]

People accuse thrall for being a mary sue, who is a character that remain completely blameless in what they do, yet here thrall is saying he not only knows his mistake he made with garrosh, but is prepared to correct that mistake, coming to SoO to kill him.

That's not the entirety of what a Mary Sue is. Mary Sues can have a lot of components. Most pertinent is Black Hole Sue for Thrall.

Also, you're missing the second/third clauses of the 'blameless' component. A Mary Sue doesn't get called out on their shit, and if anyone does call out the Mary Sue on their shit, they're villains/unsympathetic characters who usually meet grisly ends.

No, the Argent Crusade was. The Horde/Alliance was in Ulduar, which he had no part of.

Nah the horde was victorious. Doesn't have to be just one faction that won the day. All groups got their main goal completed, which was killing the Lich King.

[wariofan1]

I honestly blame it more on Blizzard, it never seemed like they had a clear plan with Garrosh. Initially it really seemed he was well on his way to proving all the naysayers wrong, in Cataclysm he wasn't totally there but he made a lot of respectable developments. However, for some reason it seems that they decided to throw out all the development he had in Cataclysm and the short stories in favor of turning him back to the angry child we saw him as in Wrath, just so he could lead us to where we are now.

I'm convinced that Garrosh's path was changed halfway through, I don't see how his development makes sense otherwise. But sure, with the way things turned out it's not hard to blame Thrall, neither is it hard to blame Varian, or heck you could blame everyone around Garrosh too for forcing him into a corner due to their constant dissapproval of him before he even gets to do anything as Warchief at all. However, in reality it really is easiest to just put the blame on one man's shoulders, and that's Garrosh himself.

[Deleted]

That was after Thrall appointed Garrosh... The entire conversation revolves around Vol'jin talking about leaving the Horde because he's unhappy with Garrosh's direction.

My bad... Thrall still had plenty of signals that putting Garrosh in charge was a bad idea.

[Irian]

You know, if you know the whole story in chronological order it's really kind of fucked up and it makes his quotes in the WoD cinematic even more tragic. (intentionally worded ambiguously for anti-spoilers.)

In the novels, essentially everyone - including Garrosh himself - warned Thrall that Garrosh was not ready to lead the Horde. He himself didn't even feel like he was ready to do it. I think even Garrosh knew the kind of path he'd take if he was given too much power. No, he's not blameless, but he was essentially forced into a position of extreme power when he was still fresh and new to Thrall's Horde. Thrall shares almost as much blame in the whole fiasco of WoD as Garrosh does and it bothers me that this isn't really shined upon in WoW at all; Thrall isn't a hero in WoD, he's a blunderer sweeping up the pieces of the Horde he shattered.

[Blufossa]

I do agree there's a certain responsibility that falls on Thrall for this. Garrosh was never ready for a position such as that... Seriously, who take a crackhead off the street and says "hey, let's make you mayor, it'll make you feel better about yourself!" (yeah, I just realized there's probably too many places that do this....).

The saddest part, however, is we're seeing the same thing happen now with Maraad. This rebellious, bloodthirsty Dranei would let those he's been entrusted to protect (including children) die for the sake of killing an orc. And yet now we see he's getting some sort of "redemption" thing? Don't think so. He's already proven to be a bigger piece of shit than Garrosh was, and yet we're gonna go with the "it won't happen again" thing.

I guess they'll write it in however they want, probably to make the Alliance feel like they have a hero in all of this, but the reality is that Maraad has done things he should be judged for, not released back into the war.

LOL! I'm guessing someone's a Horde fan. Good Lord, Maraad's story was perfectly fine.

He made a mistake before and it cost him dearly, physically and emotionally. Sounds like a normal storyline to me. Get over it.

[Comp]

LOL! I'm guessing someone's a Horde fan. Good Lord, Maraad's story was perfectly fine.

He made a mistake before and it cost him dearly, physically and emotionally. Sounds like a normal storyline to me. Get over it.

As long as he felt bad about it, I suppose the husbands and fathers of those women and children will understand. It will be almost like it never happened.

"My bad, dudes."

[-Superman-]

Ultimately, everything that has happened under the tyranny of Garrosh Hellscream falls on the shoulders of Thrall.

Which is why HE was the one to kill Garrosh. He will forever carry a part of this disaster.
18:05 starts the scene where he ultimately ENDS Garrosh once and for all.

[Cruckesmus]

Going with this logic so it was all Medivh's fault. He could have chosen another young orc to ninja Thrall's warchiefery and lead the people to Kalimdor....
Medivh should have known Thrall later would make such terrible choices right?

In that case why dont we blame Medivh's mother Aegwynn? Why did she protect the baby and sent him to safety? She should have known he would open a portal for the Legion right?

I am not a fan of Thrall, but it is how he says: the choices ONE makes belong to himself alone. Garrosh had his chance, made his choices and rolled the dices.