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  1. #241
    Titan Wildberry's Avatar
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    Well, I mean let's be completely honest here; the only thing Garrosh did wrong was lose.

  2. #242
    Quote Originally Posted by Comp View Post
    As long as he felt bad about it, I suppose the husbands and fathers of those women and children will understand. It will be almost like it never happened.

    "My bad, dudes."
    But Maraad is wanting to give his life to save lives this time. Unlike Garrosh who wanted to give other's lives.

    I'm not sure how you're trying to paint Maraad as a bad guy too when it's put right out there in his video, he regrets every single day his choice, he realizes vengeance isn't worth anything, he just wants to give his life being able to know he saved others.

  3. #243
    Vol'jin didn't want Garrosh as Warchief. Cairne didn't want Garrosh as Warchief. Even Garrosh didn't want Garrosh as Warchief! Sylvanas also probably didn't want Garrosh as Warchief (she certainly didn't after a while) if we think her opinion matters, and we can assume with some safety that Lor'themar didn't want him as Warchief, either. It baffles me that Thrall went against the advice and wishes of the other faction leaders to appoint to-be Orc Hitler as Warchief and never saw any personal consequence for it. As a result, even if I can muster up the suspension of disbelief to believe that someone of Thrall's character really would make that decision, it still sits really poorly with me. To me, it's still one of the biggest failings of the entire Garrosh story arc; that they couldn't think of a more convincing way to give the Horde a bad leader to be overthrown.

    I think that the whole thing is just a clustefuck of bad writing to hastily reach their desired conclusions.

  4. #244
    Quote Originally Posted by Jester Joe View Post
    But Maraad is wanting to give his life to save lives this time. Unlike Garrosh who wanted to give other's lives.

    I'm not sure how you're trying to paint Maraad as a bad guy too when it's put right out there in his video, he regrets every single day his choice, he realizes vengeance isn't worth anything, he just wants to give his life being able to know he saved others.
    Maybe so, but painting him as a hero when he's not is a bit much, too. It's like calling the drunk driver who killed a family in a wreck a hero because he feels really, really bad about it. He fucked up, and regardless of how bad he feels about it, those families still have to deal with the consequences of Maraadd's actions.

    Granted, it's just a story, but I'll never see this guy as a hero of any sort.

  5. #245
    Quote Originally Posted by Comp View Post
    As long as he felt bad about it, I suppose the husbands and fathers of those women and children will understand. It will be almost like it never happened.

    "My bad, dudes."
    Quote Originally Posted by Comp View Post
    Maybe so, but painting him as a hero when he's not is a bit much, too. It's like calling the drunk driver who killed a family in a wreck a hero because he feels really, really bad about it. He fucked up, and regardless of how bad he feels about it, those families still have to deal with the consequences of Maraadd's actions.

    Granted, it's just a story, but I'll never see this guy as a hero of any sort.
    Sure, Maraad made a mistake. But the thing is, he acknowledges it as a mistake and is acting on that. He'd do everything in his power and - as he outright said - give his own life to take it back.

    That's a world apart from "my bad, dudes".

  6. #246
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    Sure, Maraad made a mistake. But the thing is, he acknowledges it as a mistake and is acting on that. He'd do everything in his power and - as he outright said - give his own life to take it back.

    That's a world apart from "my bad, dudes".
    Leaving your phone on top of your car or burning a grilled cheese are mistakes. Abandoning those in your care to die is much, much more than a mistake.

    Strange how everyone talks about him like he's a hero for feeling bad, and yet nobody seems to care about the countless family members whose lives were destroyed by his selfishness.

  7. #247
    Quote Originally Posted by Comp View Post
    Leaving your phone on top of your car or burning a grilled cheese are mistakes. Abandoning those in your care to die is much, much more than a mistake.

    Strange how everyone talks about him like he's a hero for feeling bad, and yet nobody seems to care about the countless family members whose lives were destroyed by his selfishness.
    His actions weren't as simple as you make them out to be, though. He A) thought that they would be fine on his own and B) he was still trying to do a good deed (avenging the fallen) by going after the Orc. It was a snap judgment in what no-one could deny was an extreme situation, and he realized that he had made a terrible mistake the very second he saw the consequences.

    The same logic that damns Maraad would lead us to damn most, if not all, Warcraft characters as monsters. Most have made mistakes that have cost lives, and many with less savory intent.

  8. #248
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    His actions weren't as simple as you make them out to be, though. He A) thought that they would be fine on his own and B) he was still trying to do a good deed (avenging the fallen) by going after the Orc. It was a snap judgment in what no-one could deny was an extreme situation, and he realized that he had made a terrible mistake the very second he saw the consequences.

    The same logic that damns Maraad would lead us to damn most, if not all, Warcraft characters as monsters. Most have made mistakes that have cost lives, and many with less savory intent.
    If only people would defend the fallen and their families as much as everyone wants to defend Maraad, the story might actually see some justice.

  9. #249
    Quote Originally Posted by Comp View Post
    If only people would defend the fallen and their families as much as everyone wants to defend Maraad, the story might actually see some justice.
    What kind of defense are you looking for? I don't understand what you're getting at.

  10. #250
    I though i would give it a go here since i posted this in another thread sometime ago about why Garrosh is how he is and why Thrall made that (sort of reckless and close-minded a little bit) choice:

    It's all about being a mature person -> MEANING thinking outside the box, learn true wisdom from past deeds and proper management of one's own EGO.

    That being said, Thrall went through a lot in his quest for rebuilding the horde on Azeroth. He had the right kind of wisdom at the core of his "backbone" so he understands that racism, war and neverending conquest bring only blood and ashes. What i think (and this is solely my opinion) is that Thrall thought that Garrosh, after being put through so much, and after commanding horde forces into combat, would come to the same level of wisdom as he did. And just like Thrall's wisdom "clicked" in full action when he had to take real hard decisions for himself, he probably thought the same for Garrosh when he gave him the mantle or warchief as he went to save the world.

    And it didn't happen, because Garrosh is still a childish character with his main ability being shifting responsibility. Why? Because he can't handle it. Since his very beginning his EGO was broken. He was a child that was raised with the elders of garadar, the son of a loose cannon. When he joined the Horde everyone taunted him because of what they thought about him. A "mature" Garrosh would let all that aside and give them a few "president" speeches about how he is not his father and that he lives and dies for the horde, no matter how "colourful" it has become. But that didn't happen because of his huge tauntable ego.

    This is how i see it... Thrall rolled the dices with Gary and lost and Gary knew nothing about respect for Thrall as all he sees is a wierdo that hangs with the colourful crowd.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    What kind of defense are you looking for? I don't understand what you're getting at.
    The same defense I would expect to be given for any families who have to see the man responsible for their family members' deaths run free to do as he pleases.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Comp View Post
    The same defense I would expect to be given for any families who have to see the man responsible for their family members' deaths run free to do as he pleases.
    What do you think Maraad's been doing for the last 30 years? Sitting on a couch and eating grapes? And do you really think that the family of the Draenei killed that day would really want Maraad dead or punished, when Maraad's spending all his time trying to protect others and/or serve the cause of good in various ways?

    I don't know what you're expecting. Maraad himself recognizes that what he did was a terrible mistake, regardless of intent. He himself has taken the initiative to atone for it in absolutely any way he can. Characters like Saurfang have been forgiven for much, much worse.

  13. #253
    Quote Originally Posted by Eats Compost View Post
    What do you think Maraad's been doing for the last 30 years? Sitting on a couch and eating grapes? And do you really think that the family of the Draenei killed that day would really want Maraad dead or punished, when Maraad's spending all his time trying to protect others and/or serve the cause of good in various ways?

    I don't know what you're expecting. Maraad himself recognizes that what he did was a terrible mistake, regardless of intent. He himself has taken the initiative to atone for it in absolutely any way he can. Characters like Saurfang have been forgiven for much, much worse.
    If only they had put you in charge of defending those women and children, they'd probably all still be alive. You're 100x better at defending people than Maraad was. ZING! =P

  14. #254
    Titan Wildberry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Comp View Post
    If only they had put you in charge of defending those women and children, they'd probably all still be alive. You're 100x better at defending people than Maraad was. ZING! =P
    That was... Bravo, well played.

  15. #255
    How about we stop blaming the people that are trying to save this stupid world, and start blaming people like Taran Zhu. If he didn't intervene before Thrall killed Garrosh, even more lives would have been saved, and even more destruction could've been prevented.
    Garrosh decided everything on his own terms, not Thrall's. Stop blaming others for the actions of the self.

  16. #256
    I did a quick "Search Thread" for any mention of War Crimes, and I'm surprised nothing came up? I actually just finished it, but there's a wonderful scene where Thrall is on the witness stand, Kairoz and Chromie conjure up a vision of when Thrall met Baine right before leaving to train in Nagrand for the coming Cataclysm(which was when he put Garrosh in charge). At the very least, we can say Thrall is definitely remorseful in that scene, which I was afraid Thrall would have 'shining armor' deflecting all moral responsibility, XD.

    It's very clear from the closing statements of the Trial though that everyone puts the blame on Garrosh, because as someone else already said in this thread "He's an adult!", and his decisions are his own.

    Edit: Oh, I thought it was interesting to note Cairne thought he would make a great Warchief IIIIFFFF Thrall stayed and councilled him. Which is why he was mad at Thrall for giving the title to Garrosh out of necessity to leave rather than an actual transition.

  17. #257
    Scarab Lord foxHeart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ilfayt View Post
    It's very clear from the closing statements of the Trial though that everyone puts the blame on Garrosh, because as someone else already said in this thread "He's an adult!", and his decisions are his own.
    That's true, but ultimately what gave Garrosh his power was Thrall passing the mantle of Warchief to him...so you cannot say none of what happened is Thrall's fault. He bears some of the blame because of that stupid, short-sighted decision. It's like he loaded a gun, gave it to Garrosh, and then went. "I'm trusting you to not get into any trouble, mister!" And what did Garrosh do with the gun? Yeah. If you left your car unlocked with a door open and someone ransacked it, who would be getting blamed for it happening? You or the thief? Both. The thief obviously stole your stuff. And you enabled them.
    Last edited by foxHeart; 2014-09-28 at 05:29 AM.
    Look! Words!

  18. #258
    Deleted
    This is Varian's fault. He didn't let Thrall squash his head like a watermelon at the end of siege.

  19. #259
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarch the Subduer View Post
    If you read some of the books you'd learn that Thrall stepped down because the Orcs were starting to dislike him (poverty in Orgrimmar, lack of food, starving families, overpopulation, etc.) while Garrosh was regarded as one of the greatest war heroes of the time after his achievements in Northrend. There was even a quote in the books somewhere that said something along the lines of: "Garrosh Hellscream was the most achieved, honorable and praised hero the Horde might've ever known." And in the canon books they pretty much write off the victory against the Lich King as being mostly because of Garrosh' efforts and leadership.

    So there is that. The orc population as a whole loved and praised Garrosh while they disliked Thrall's inaptitude.
    This is true, but at the same time, even Vol'jin points out, loosely quoted: garrosh was an amazing warrior and an ally on the front lines, but he did not have the mind of a leader. Anyone could've and should've seen that, and Thrall just didn't. There were so many warnings, even from Garrosh himself, yet Thrall ignored them.

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Aakarshan View Post
    This is true, but at the same time, even Vol'jin points out, loosely quoted: garrosh was an amazing warrior and an ally on the front lines, but he did not have the mind of a leader.
    What is the 'mind of a leader'? Do you mean that stuff about people saying that he has a 'weak core' and he does whatever his bedbuddies happen to tell him to do?
    If you are particularly bold, you could use a Shiny Ditto. Do keep in mind though, this will infuriate your opponents due to Ditto's beauty. Please do not use Shiny Ditto. You have been warned.

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