Why don't people want combo points on the player?

[bloodforsilence]

I think it's not so much of a case of just straight hating on rogues as it is they would need to actually take times to redesign and implement a revamp to the cp point system. That takes people off other projects. Maybe it's going to be paired in this "mini rework" coming next expansion if it does actually come. If they changed it to being on the player will our cp's decay over time, decay at a varying rate whether we are in combat/out of combat. Will there be situation where you do some target swapping and all of a sudden your rogue stops building cp's. If FoK remains the same and your in a pack of 5 mobs each time you cast FoK are you going to instantly generate 5 cp's, are you going to generate only 1 cp, how does the system award a cp in that situation. and yes i understand that monks spinning crane kick generates 1 chi in a pack of 3 or more so they know how to implement that but changes like this will affect game play, and if it doesn't play well and even more people jump the rogue ship then that's less money for them. I'm just saying it would take them more time then i think they are willing to throw money at atm.

At the current state of the game with the loss of subs if they pull too much talent into reworking us and pull away from other features they are looking to release it would be a more problematic situation.

In all honesty i'd rather have my rogues 3 specs play differently where it would actually be feasible that a spec comes ahead on certain types of fights rather then 1 spec being dominant for one thing. If this could be achieved over adding cp's to yourself adding more variation to the game play then i'd be all for it.

[Austilias]

It's extremely out-dated in my eyes. The quicker they make combo points bound to Rogues, the better. There's been a lot of talk about reducing bloat; removing Redirect would be a good start. There is of course the issue that Rogue Combo points are used for more than just Damage (as opposed to Holy Power/Chi), but then one mustn't forget Priests; whose Shadow Orbs can be used for an attack that is similar in its neutering capabilities as a stun, Psychic Horror, and the Shadow Orbs are still bound to the Priest despite it.

[Warstar]

No resource in the game decays in combat. The biggest redesign they need to do is my the little red circles from one frame to the other.

Like seriously that's all they need to do. That and put a shared CD on kick/deadly throw and then the class is fine and no one will bitch anymore.

[Crovyn]

rogue class team is dead since 2004 RiP

Well actually since 2006 (or whenever it was exactly) when Tigole went to the Titan project. He was the passionate rogue player in the team.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeffrey...me_designer%29

[Warstar]

As far as resources go and leveling by far the best experience I've had has been with my new monk.

As a rogue unless you're one shotting stuff from stealth with shadow focus the general feeling of the class is being energy starved. If you ever have a sustained fight against an elite mob or boss in a dungeon is boring as hell and half the time is spent just waiting on energy (going to be worse in 5.4 for people who try leveling a combat rogue they should really leave SS as it is until you hit 90 and then it gains the energy and damage change). It's an insanely boring, lack luster and you really can't do anything because it takes so long to build 5 CP and then if you have to fight a second mob starting at 0 energy you're just down right screwed. I absolutely hated it.

Compare that to the monk who is the freshest designed class.

With the way the chi and energy work with each other and especially with ascension giving monks a bonus to energy regen and chi storage it's so easy to level. Even with next to no haste it takes a really long time for a monk to become resource starved and you can chain pull mobs with out ever feeling like you don't have a button to push since energy regens so fast as it is and with chi spenders you typically only have to press jab once to build enough chi for a finisher so you can bounce back and forth between the two and as far as leveling goes really never run out of resources. Even at a higher level the "haste cap" where you can get to the point that you GCD cap and always have enough resources to do something is less than half of what combat is running in current gear. Plus with having chi on the target their's no break in the feel of combat. If you ever need a major CC they have paralysis on a 15 second CD which doesn't rely on stealth. They get spinning crane kick around the lv 40s I think maybe 46? Compared to rogues getting FoK at 76. And they also have alternate specs of tank/heals to mix things up with/instant que for dungeons/tanks are highest dps in dungeons.

Comparing the rogue which has probably the oldest design to it with just a couple minor changes here and there with the monk which is the newest designed class there is such a huge difference and it's pretty sad.

From leveling perspective, 50% bonus xp daily not included, the monk is so much stronger than a rogue in probably every way possible aside from maybe stealthing through to get something.

And once again it's really not even a skill thing it's just a bad design problem. Can't say that a warrior/shaman pulling large packs and aoeing the crap out of them down gives them a higher skill. But where the rogue has to at later levels really pick their fights and use their whole tool kit every other class can just smash through it and either single target or aoe stuff down with little problems on either but a rogue who tries to aoe will die pretty hard. Even on my well geared rogue if I ever tried to do the battle field barrens weekly quest and try to pull large packs to aoe them down I took more damage, had less healing and had a higher chance of dying than my little 496 warrior.

Rogues are just poorly designed to level and when you essentially have to start over after each mob it just kills the flow of leveling and never lets you get into a groove.

[Coldkil]

Merged threads.

[reckoner04]

I would propose the following change:

When your target dies while it still has CP on them, those CP will automatically be transferred to the next target you attack (or, alternatively, the next target you build CP on).

This would deal with the (imo) legitimate concern that finishers are almost unusable and not really fun while levelling because mobs die too quickly.

[nextormento]

I see we're exploring diverse topics here now. I'd like to address a couple of them. Not particularly arguing about the combo points (I do tangentially, though), but I think they're very interesting ones. Let me start with one that is coming up a bit more often than needed -or so I think- in a thread discussing how a class should behave/operate; the current state:

I doubt arguing about current state of the class is grounds for this proposed change. All through the expansions we've been at some point able to be among the highest ranked pvpers, high aoe class, highest dps class, best cleave class, decent (albeit quirky) tank, have admirable raid-solo capability, able one-shot people in low bgs, able to endlessly and fully disable an adversary, be one of the most popular classes. And we've been in all those scenarios with absolutely no change to the combo point paradigm. If you feel we can't perform properly in any niche due to how this mechanic works, you have a very narrow imagination or experience.


Class representation
We certainly have less representation than other classes, but are rogues underrepresented? is there a population target? what would that be? in what way having a higher representation affect players?. I'm not trying to shut down argumentation on these issues: they're honest questions that I ponder from time to time. Ultimately I think those questions lead to a better understanding of how our class operates, but I don't think any of them can hold water when arguing for any kind of change.

Let me elaborate. I don't think having higher representation can have many implications on the well being of a rogue player. If anything, it could make us feel more accepted; as in: peer admittance of you being worthy. But we don't do that: would you argue the goal of including minorities in our society is to have them equally represented? I doubt the final goal is to have 50% of the planet population be, say, gay. That would be absurd in a social environment. And much the same it's absurd in gaming.

When you design a game with different roles/classes, you don't try to have all your different units be equally attractive to every player. In fact you do the opposite: else, your new players will have a very hard time deciding on what to play. You want them to instantly recognize the traits of your units and have them feel attracted to one or another. This means, in the long run, you will have classes that are necessarily less represented than others, as a reflect on how your player-base expresses their different attitudes in gaming. They are casting a wide net; they are appealing to a wide audience and they cater to as many players as they can. The mindset of the player that enjoys rogues happens to be a part of the gaming population that is more scarce.

And yes, rogues were more represented in the past. We also were extremely overpowered too. To the point that other players wanting to fully enjoy their non-rogue character where many times unable to do so when confronted with a rogue. If you started the game back then, and asked your friends what to play, they would invariably tell you: roll a rogue. I should know: that's how I started playing rogue, and that's the knowledge I transmitted to newer players too. Normalizing attack power, introducing stat ratings, bringing the hybrid tax to an end, etc were all balance acts. They all made a dent in rogue population. Mostly in that high amount of rogues that were in just to melt faces while pressing two buttons: those that never even tried to learn the class.

Now don't get me wrong: I do think rogues have issues. Understanding trends in population is a way to gain knowledge in those issues. But having a higher population is not -or should not be- a goal.


Leveling
Population trends do show a higher than average abandonment of the class mid-leveling. At very low levels, rogues seem to be equally chosen, and people eventually stop playing them. This happens in every class but it seems to be more pronounced in rogues. Rogues do, apparently, have very little going on to keep players interested. This is a serious issue, and one I have no doubt the developers address. Cata, particularly made big changes to correct this (biggest and more notorious would be giving mutilate at an earlier stage).

However, I don't think we have the whole picture here. Let me speculate for a bit; I don't have data to support any of this but I think it can make us understand what might be going on. Most people interested in mmos are familiar with or have played wow in the past. Thus, arguably most of the low level rogues that we can track are rerollers (we have no way to know for certain that a player is new to the game). There's one bit we really don't know: why do these people choose a rogue (or any other class for that matter). I often ask my friends with rogue alts why they did choose the rogue; most can't point exactly why, true. But some can, and a considerable high amount of them will summon the 'I hate and despise rogues' thing. We play a class that many people hate: most of their experiences with rogues ended badly (after all we do play against their odds). So they picked the class to feel how it is to be on the dark side, hoping for some apparent easy kills. Of course, we know those easy kills don't exist: we hand pick or targets; and the class as a whole is a bit of a pain if you don't know what is it about. So they leave the class and never look back.

So, to summarize: there's a higher than normal desire to re-roll rogue. People chose it for all the wrong reasons and they finally figure out they really didn't like it in the first place. That, of course, is not all that is going on with how people leave the class, but I believe it makes a notable difference on the demographics of the class. All in all, I don't think we have the power to read too much into population trends, sadly.

But one thing is true: leveling up is a pain, compared to other classes. I don't think comparing it to monks is fair though: a huge part of that experience is the XP boost, and how effortlessly you overcome the -admittedly- tedious task of leveling up (which is what many re-rollers are looking for). Monks are delivering on a whole different experience and that's pretty much the premise of the class. Death knights did the same thing: they were, at the time, the most appealing class to level up. Eventually time will correct this and we'll again see all classes equally boring (or exciting) to level up.

Compared to other classic classes, I don't think the difference is that enormous. I've personally leveled some other classes and keep coming back to rogues (of which I've leveled some absurd amount of, because I do love the leveling rogue experience: I may be on a less crowded boat but there certainly are people that like it this way).

Ultimately, the experience they're delivering is that of a nimble class. It's neither a glass cannon or a sturdy warrior: it's just that fragile but smart creature that is constantly faced against apparently insurmountable tasks. In the face of adversity we pull our trick box and make the most of it in every scenario. Sneaking past big packs of mobs before the quest target might seem like a silly trait, but I think it's deeply exploring on the core of our experience. We get annoyed when people trying to help us if they disturb the pathing of patrols. We're a solo adventurer. And we focus one target at a time. When we lock on a player in pvp, they should know they're in for a world of pain, and they won't see us changing target anytime soon.

But even if people like me -liking the somewhat adverse leveling curve- exist, the class should offer a more dynamic, fluid, streamlined experience while leveling. I do think, however, that while leveling up is crucial for developing a player-character bonding, it's by no means grounds for a change that affects end-game. And I suspect addressing energy regen (and perhaps reverting how it interacts with haste) is much more of an interesting change than combo points.

[Deleted]

I'm sure someone has already said this but I don't have time to trawl the thread.

Keep combo points active on each target when switching.

I'd like to keep the rogue flavour here and not become a windwalker with poisons, but disappearing points is a pain.

[Koji2k11]

I'm sure someone has already said this but I don't have time to trawl the thread.

Keep combo points active on each target when switching.

I'd like to keep the rogue flavour here and not become a windwalker with poisons, but disappearing points is a pain.

you understand that windwalkers are rogues 2.0 right ?

[Eroginous]

Most people on these forums seem to want combo points on the player rather than the target and in most discussions about changes to the class this topic is brought up almost 100% of the time.

But, some people think that it would be a bad change.

Why?

I've never seen a well thought out logical reason/discusion about why changing CP to the player rather than the target would be a bad idea.

So, please if you are against this idea please tell me why. Please refrain from using short 1 line answers such as "I don't like it" or "Will ruin the class" or "it will make rogues not unique". But if you feel like that please tell me why you do. Why do you think that it will ruin the class? Why don't you like it? What is it about this idea that causes it to be bad for the rogue class?

Please someone give me an intelligent answer as to why people think like this because I just don't get it right now.

I would be against this because rogues already have the ability to move their CPs. Sure, it comes with a CD and requires a conscious choice, but that's probably how it should be.

Druids would be the class I would change this for, they have a hard time managing CPs and using them effectively, adding a button would just make their ability bloat worse.

[Crovyn]

I would be against this because rogues already have the ability to move their CPs. Sure, it comes with a CD and requires a conscious choice, but that's probably how it should be.

No not really, give me one logical reason (not non vaild Rogues are op whine). Rogues already have to manage enough in PVE, this is clunky and outdated, that's all there is to it, it's not engaging gameplay, it's not more fun, it's just still there. There is no reason.

Druids would be the class I would change this for, they have a hard time managing CPs and using them effectively, adding a button would just make their ability bloat worse.

Druids can have it too, but Duids don't need it MORE. I play Feral as twink, it's really not more difficult than Rogue, if anything it's more relaxing to play.

[Verain]

I would propose the following change:

When your target dies while it still has CP on them, those CP will automatically be transferred to the next target you attack (or, alternatively, the next target you build CP on).

This would deal with the (imo) legitimate concern that finishers are almost unusable and not really fun while levelling because mobs die too quickly.

What features about combat, sub, and mutilate (please address all three independently unless your reason is something universal like "kidney shot") would break the game?

If, say, combat had combo points on the rogue, why is the concern here? Remember that when every other class got combo points (at this point, combo points have been handed out to DKs, then Paladins, then Shadow Priests, and simultaneously Monks), they all got them on them. No one copied the least popular and most bitched about feature, because the game designers knew full well that no one wanted that restriction added to them.


Combo points on the rogue, in all specs or one, are not "homegenization". That ship sailed when the other guys got combo points.

- - - Updated - - -

Keep combo points active on each target when switching.

It has been brought up, and it's a pretty solid idea. If combo points are meant to represent exploiting a target instead of buffing the rogue (which seems to be the case), then why on earth can't we exploit more than one target at once? It has all the disadvantages of "builds combo points on you" COMBINED with all the disadvantages of "builds combo points on target". You'd have to work with the aoe thing though- the devs made some pretty lazy assumptions there ("I recall I just built up combo points, but I don't see where, nor is there an icon above him or even a /targetguywithmyfuckingresource command - I guess it's crimson tempest time!").



I think it should be by spec. I think one spec should not have redirect, but maybe could be able to build on multiple targets. Another could keep redirect with a shorter cooldown, and keep combo points. And a third spec would just have them on the rogue period.


Note that considerations such as "ermagerhd kidney shot" could be addressed by having a higher base cooldown of KS, and having it lowered as part of the passive that gives you combo points. Also note that there are already specs in the game that have no problem with this- for instance, a balance druid can build combo points on a healer while setting up his kill target, land the stun and then attack their entirely differently kill target, etc.

- - - Updated - - -

I'd like to keep the rogue flavour here and not become a windwalker with poisons, but disappearing points is a pain

Just because Windwalkers got the buff I've seen threads crying for since vanilla doesn't make us them. Windwalkers are rogues who got dev attention- they are the homogenized ones. Us getting our combo points updated to be spec dependent or at least to not simultaneously have the disadvantages of both in SOME specs isn't us copying something.

[Cirque]

If they were to transfer to the player, as a buffer, when a target dies, that could be something.
Then you´d either have to redirect to a new target, or spend them on SnD, recoup or something targetless.
Or a more forgiving route would be that they´d be automatically moved from you, to the next target you attack (apply CPs to)
But if you switch before your target is dead, the CPs would obviously remain on that previous target unless you redirect.

That´d get around the cases with mobs that just dissolve, or bosses that do things in phase transitions that remove the original boss and and creates a new one.. basically the cases where the CPs are just gone.
EDIT:
This would make the entire leveling experience play much better aswell I think.

And so much more complex. What exactly is wrong with just CP on you and that's it?

[Louis CK]

They're on the target because you're injuring the target in such a way to prepare it to be succeptible to a more deadly move. Just as a bleeding target takes more damage from certain moves because they're bleeding. Combo points are basically a debuff on your target, not a buff on yourself.

[Abysal]

But one thing is true: leveling up is a pain, compared to other classes. I don't think comparing it to monks is fair though: a huge part of that experience is the XP boost, and how effortlessly you overcome the -admittedly- tedious task of leveling up (which is what many re-rollers are looking for).

Ultimately, the experience they're delivering is that of a nimble class. It's neither a glass cannon or a sturdy warrior: it's just that fragile but smart creature that is constantly faced against apparently insurmountable tasks. In the face of adversity we pull our trick box and make the most of it in every scenario. Sneaking past big packs of mobs before the quest target might seem like a silly trait, but I think it's deeply exploring on the core of our experience. We get annoyed when people trying to help us if they disturb the pathing of patrols. We're a solo adventurer. And we focus one target at a time. When we lock on a player in pvp, they should know they're in for a world of pain, and they won't see us changing target anytime soon.

But even if people like me -liking the somewhat adverse leveling curve- exist, the class should offer a more dynamic, fluid, streamlined experience while leveling. I do think, however, that while leveling up is crucial for developing a player-character bonding, it's by no means grounds for a change that affects end-game. And I suspect addressing energy regen (and perhaps reverting how it interacts with haste) is much more of an interesting change than combo points.

Rogues have trouble with quests that require you to take on packs of mobs all at once or in a short period of time. Their AOE sucks until high levels. Their self healing isn't designed to handle sudden bursts of incoming damage the way many classes is. Their resource generation is incredibly slow at lower levels.

Being able to fly through caves and past mobs is great. But it seems like the quests where that really helps you are few and far between compared to the traditional "kill this pack of mobs" type of quests. So maybe you don't quest as much as a rogue. Maybe you do some dungeons. Well, like I said their AOE sucks miserably at low level. This makes rogues feel ineffective in dungeons while leveling. And until they get their energy regen up, boss fights are just a lot of waiting on your energy to regen while auto-attacking.

This wasn't so bad back when BGs gave good XP. That was where leveling a rogue was really fun. But since they nerfed XP, low level BGs aren't a worthwhile way to level your character anymore.

Also, the combo points on your target is a huge issue while leveling. You don't have redirect at a low level, and even when you do get it the CD is long. While you're questing, you typically kill a mob in 2-8 seconds. I'd say at least half the time you end up with CPs left on the target. Before redirect, your only options when you kill a mob with CPs left are to either refresh SnD or Recuperate. Otherwise they were wasted CPs. That may not seem like a big deal, but you can quest for an hour or 2 and only get to use a 4/5 CP finisher maybe once or twice. That's not good design. You aren't experiencing the class the way it was intended to. CPs being on player would instantly fix that problem.

As for energy regen, it's fine at higher levels. They can't give us too many of our passive regens early because they have to give us buttons to hit early and they need some abilities to be gained while leveling. What they can do is something similar to what they do with healers: Baseline regen is extremely buffed in the first 10 levels and then gradually decreases after that. For rogues, this would mean maybe you get 20 energy/s until level 10 then after that it starts decreasing by 0.5/s until you get down to 10 energy/s. That would take you to level 30 at which point they can make sure we've learned our most significant energy regen abilities.

CP on char, improved low level energy regen, and finally a much earlier AoE would make leveling a rogue a better experience for most re-rollers. They are buffing recuperate in 5.4 by 1%/s so hopefully that helps with the self healing issue a bit (although I feel like rogues still need something to instantly add about 20% health on a long CD for those players).

[finn]

They're on the target because you're injuring the target in such a way to prepare it to be succeptible to a more deadly move.

that's an interessting point of view.... i'm setting up one target to be susceptible to a more deadly move and then i go "BOOM!! CRIMSON TEMPEST IN UR FACEZ!!!" because i set up one target for a yaddayaddayadda...

Combo points are basically a debuff on your target, not a buff on yourself.

please, get your facts straight. CPs are ressources; nothing more, nothing less. keeping them glued to just one target is an ancient relic from classic where building up 5 CPs on the rogue and then switching to a green/blue clothie (remember? in classic only a minority was fully clothed in purples) and insta-gibbing him with a cold-blooded-evisc would have ruined many days.
only some months before i rolled into the closed beta they'd had some experiments with CPs on the player. they removed that pretty quickly because it was "just too strong" (or something like that).

[nextormento]

Combo points on the rogue, in all specs or one, are not "homegenization".

No matter how you slice it, or how other posters straw-man it, or try and pick the weakest poster presenting this issue, homogenization *is* a concern. Giving paladins a kick-like spell (rebuke) did not turn them into rogues: that would be an absurd conclusion. But it contributes to class homogenization (and the devs are aggressively addressing this very spell for that sole reason in twitter and elsewhere). It was implemented because they foresaw interrupts being needed in 4.0 (every raid included some interrupt), instead of designing encounters based on what the classes can do, as they repeatedly say they design stuff. If you don't see it as an issue, that's fine: it's not a major one, of course. But it IS an issue: it prevents other classes from developing niches. Before that, a raid would be very happy to bring someone that could interrupt (thusly they were happy when a rogue showed up), whereas now we feel like we can't compete if we don't have one, so they spread the spell among more classes. Will it make all classes the same? no, duh. Do small things like Rebuke contribute to many players not being perceived a nice partner? absolutely.

It's true that having combo points anywhere won't make a dent in the decision making of your raid leader. But that's the easiest way for me to explain what homogenization is about. For our particular case, they are simply trying to have mechanics work differently so people get to choose which one they like the most. Some people do like combo points where they stand now, are you arguing those players don't know what is best for them?

I'll give you that they desperately need to shape up the niche rogues provide. But that's another issue altogether.

In short, nobody discusses if this change on combo points leads to equal classes. We point out that it leads to a very wide amount of issues -of which homogenization happens to be one-. Issues that need to be balanced and weighted against that change.

Note that considerations such as "ermagerhd kidney shot" could be addressed by[...]

Note that changing the way combo points stack leads necessarily to a huge amount of changes, of which Kidney Shot might be the smallest. They can balance anything. They can change the class upside down and make it work again. They can even go ahead and change our class yellow to a brighter one (I think this is a more pressing issue than combo points tbh). But to do so, they need a reason for it in the first place. A reason, that currently I fail to grasp as anything other than a QOL issue (and a very minor at that).

You are doing an excellent job at trying and make a compelling argument. Making combo points on the rogue desirable. Offering a spec borked up enough already that it could use some fresh air (combat). But you know: combo points on the rogue are already desirable. It's a huge buff in efficiency, and buffs are something people like. The question is, would it make for interesting and deep interactions? we don't know. Should they try and see if it works? doubtful: at least considering that the current mechanic works -bugs aside, which need to be fixed- and delivers on a perfectly valid experience.

edit
Will we see a day in which they think they could go ahead and design something unique, again, for rogues? They might. The game population is old enough; it's very likely that they get more people returning to the game than proper new players. If they think they need to cater to that audience (one that is very hard to appease), they might want to give us new, fresh toys. I've been playing rogue for long enough to personally long for some big change. I'm just doubtful it's needed now, or healthy for the current game.

[...]

Yep, I said it's a pain: I'm not oblivious to the issues while leveling. Maybe you're just trying to expand on it; my intent was to offer a handle on the leveling argument for combo points anyway =). I do think, however, that all those issues can be solved without altering how combo points stack. Particularly by slanting the damage output of our spells, making a 3cp eviscerate into a finisher worth considering. The fantasy is you build up towards a bigger spell, not that you should cast finishers with maximum efficiency. As for energy regen, I'm of those that think haste and regen should have never been mixed >link<, and would be perfectly happy if it was consistent across each level.

This wasn't so bad back when BGs gave good XP. That was where leveling a rogue was really fun. But since they nerfed XP, low level BGs aren't a worthwhile way to level your character anymore.

Gaming is not an exercise on efficiency. You are able to gain a lot of instant reward to satiate your immediate needs, and you translate it into fun. But it's not healthy to the game or the player. If more efficiency led invariably to more fun, we wouldn't even have combo points: every spell would do the same big amount of damage and we'd call it a day. To design a gaming experience you need a lot more than instant gratification.

[mongoose6]

Why not have both? Combo points on the player that can be used for self buffs, combat points on target for damaging abilities. It would add an extra layer of difficulty and allow more differentiation between the specs. The differences could revolve around how the different combo points were added.

[reckoner04]

Class representation
We certainly have less representation than other classes, but are rogues underrepresented? [...]
When you design a game with different roles/classes, you don't try to have all your different units be equally attractive to every player.
[...] having a higher population is not -or should not be- a goal.

This can not be said often enough. So often I see some sort of balance thread where people argue that they're underrepresented or someone else is overrepresented, assuming that, if there was perfect balance, each class/spec would have the same number of players. This is simply not true.

[...] And yes, rogues were more represented in the past. We also were extremely overpowered too. To the point that other players wanting to fully enjoy their non-rogue character where many times unable to do so when confronted with a rogue. If you started the game back then, and asked your friends what to play, they would invariably tell you: roll a rogue. I should know: that's how I started playing rogue, and that's the knowledge I transmitted to newer players too. [...]

This reminds me so much of the World of Roguecraft series back then. You should at least watch the intro if you haven't done so yet!

[...] Ultimately, the experience they're delivering is that of a nimble class. [...] We're a solo adventurer. And we focus one target at a time. When we lock on a player in pvp, they should know they're in for a world of pain, and they won't see us changing target anytime soon.

That's most certainly part of the Rogue identity, a part that some seem to deny. Rogues have always been the tunnelling class, they lock on their target and train them until they die (or in the early days, they just built their CP and critted them down). CP play a central part in that regard and moving them over to the player would just make Rogues more generic. There's nothing to gain from such a change in the long term.

I enjoyed your post quite a bit, but I wouldn't wonder if there weren't that many responding to you. Maybe it's a bit too long :P

What features about combat, sub, and mutilate (please address all three independently unless your reason is something universal like "kidney shot") would break the game?

What are you talking about breaking the game? My post doesn't have anything to do with what you're saying here. I even specifically stated in one of my earlier posts that balance is not a concern here, since the power of the class will simply be adjusted in other ways if Rogues would happen to become overpowered. If that's not what you're talking about, try to rephrase because I don't understand what you're trying to say.

Combo points on the rogue, in all specs or one, are not "homegenization". That ship sailed when the other guys got combo points.

So you mean that after a bit of homogenization, it wouldn't hurt homogenizing even more? That after classes have been made similar already, it wouldn't hurt making them exactly the same?

Also, the combo points on your target is a huge issue while leveling. You don't have redirect at a low level, and even when you do get it the CD is long. While you're questing, you typically kill a mob in 2-8 seconds. I'd say at least half the time you end up with CPs left on the target. Before redirect, your only options when you kill a mob with CPs left are to either refresh SnD or Recuperate. Otherwise they were wasted CPs. That may not seem like a big deal, but you can quest for an hour or 2 and only get to use a 4/5 CP finisher maybe once or twice. That's not good design. You aren't experiencing the class the way it was intended to. CPs being on player would instantly fix that problem.

What would you say about my suggestion posted further up? "When your target dies while it still has CP on them, those CP will automatically be transferred to the next target you attack (or, alternatively, the next target you build CP on)."