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  1. #41
    What's the point? Redirect already exists, so all that would really happen is that the skill cap would be lowered. This game's skill cap is already pitiful as it is, but rogues are one of the few that still take a decent amount of skill to play well. I'd rather not change that.

  2. #42
    As a longtime Rogue myself, I never understood the Rogues who seem so desperate to keep the combo points shackled to their target. Do you enjoy playing with a handicap?

    As for the "Homogenization" argument, just stop. Please. The overuse of this word in the community is starting to physically hurt me.
    "I will say, I think it passing odd that I am loved by one for a kindness I never did, and reviled by so many for my finest act."

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by Morgomir View Post
    might have something to do with walking up to someone and dropping a 5 point Kidney Shot without any buildup
    Still takes 5cp's no matter where they are, if you want to talk about just walking up to someone and stunning them lets talk about fist of justice and Asphyxiate oh wait you don't have to walk up to them you can just stun them from 20-30yards away with those and they take no setup at all ever...

    The only reason to keep cp's on the target would be to keep rogues "unique" but I don't think its worth it to be unique when its a disadvantage.

  4. #44
    it kinda stops being a combo once you switch targets

  5. #45
    Herald of the Titans Deathgoose's Avatar
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    Aug 2010
    Quote Originally Posted by Emfg View Post
    Because then rogues will be like monks, paladins and to a certain extend warlocks.

    I like my combo points on the target.
    My mage is just like my warlock is just like my priest because they all use mana!

    This argument is silly. The simple answer is Rogues have long asked for CP to be on the player but they gave it to Monks instead with Chi.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Fae View Post
    But I believe that instead of messing with rogue core mechanics, they should rather completely redesign the AoE itself.
    "Get back in line, we got here first", said the enhancement community.

  7. #47
    Cause i like it how it is. It makes for fun gameplay and with such a change the skillcap would be lowered. I love to know i can get better when i fuck it up, even though the skillcap again will be lowered with the removed redirect cd change. If you wanna be like all the other classes, just go change your class instead. If you wanna be a rogue, roll with it man. All this convience changes/wishes are kinda making me sick :/.

  8. #48
    Scarab Lord foxHeart's Avatar
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    Jul 2009
    Inside Jabu-jabu's Belly
    Who cares if it's a quality of life improvement and feels way better! It's homogenization! Just thought I'd jump in there with everyone else who doesn't like change.
    Look! Words!

  9. #49
    I'd love for it to be on the player, having it on the target is just bad mechanics, and redirect is the bandaid fix

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    Much like you can't find *good* arguments for stacking on the target, I'm yet to find any good one for them stacking on the rogue.

    -It's small changes like that one that led to our 3 specs being so close game-play-wise. Stacking cps on the rogue might not make the sky fall, but it contributes -heavily- to class homogeniezation.
    How? How does it do this? It's a purely quality of life change. Whether the combo points are on the Rogue or on the target, it already draws heavy comparisons with the mechanics given to other classes. Blizzard has refined their systems over the years, and given the benefits of their game design to other classes. Why not Rogues?

    -Like it or not, playing a game is not an exercise on efficiency; obstacles are a -very big- part of what makes a game compelling.
    Yes, and artificial obstacles based on something that frustrates players is not a good one.

    -Having to think in advance how/when to spend cps is part of the current design; if you lost some cps, you didn't plan ahead.
    Why? Why does the Rogue and Feral Druids have this added hindrance? It's not "fun" to have comb points vanish for no good reason other than a simple mistake. Other classes have the ability to adjust, why not Rogues?

    -They serve as a way to granulate and differenciate rogues: if you can't deal with this, you might be a decent rogue, just not an excelent one.
    This is a borderline No True Scotsman argument.

    -Offering flexibility -redirect- does not imply the mechanic is meaningless. It's meaningful enough to have people still discussing it, go figure.
    No, it means it's a patch to a problem, and not a true solution.

    -Not changing something does not mean developers are lazy. If anything, it's very much the other way around, given the amount of stuff they need to implement to support a niche mechanic.
    I would never say that developers are lazy. But other classes *have* had much more massive changes than this...

    -Not changing something does not mean developers are stubborn: framing the issue this way really makes very little for your argument.
    Again, I would never say that. That doesn't mean that people shouldn't continue to stress the issue.

    -But they let hunter ammunition go: they also took away poisons, so?: head-start bloat is another issue.
    Hunters and minimum range, Shamans and totems, Warlocks and Soul Shards, Paladins and Seal/Judge, Warriors and stance dancing, etc... All were simple quality of life changes. Made to make the class more fun. Rogues deserve the same.

    -But other classes work differently: yeah, they're different, so?
    And other classes have had their mechanics changed.

    -It's dated: this word lost meaning 8 or so years ago.
    Is there even a point here? Dated mechanics that are sub par have been changed.

    -But other games...: the population of wow rogues alone is higher than the total pop of several of those games together.
    Two points: 1) Take a look at the current Rogue population and tell me changes aren't needed. 2) And how many times has Blizzard borrowed better ideas from other games?

    -But I do desire they changed it: having you whish stuff is what makes a game, well, a game.
    Again... Is there a point here?

    -But the majority want change: yeah, designing anything (games, architecture, chairs) is not a democracy. And it's probably not true anyway.
    Look at the declining Rogue population. Now look at the population of other classes, including the now revamped Warlock, which received a lot of attention. It's not a democracy, for sure, but Blizzard needs to pay attention to the demographics here.

    See, the only reasons to prune mechanics like this is if:
    1- the mechanic does no longer provide meaningful enough play (the ghostly strike paradigm)
    If you push this one, I really have little to say: maybe rogue is not for you. Or maybe you need to learn how to play around it: it's a completely avoidable obstacle.
    But. Why. Does. It. Need. To. Be. An. Obstacle. At. All?

    2- the obstacle has turned into an annoyance (the brewing your own poisons paradigm)
    This is a very real issue. Current buggy mechanics do really offer very little room to work around the mechanic. Arguing in a QOL frame sounds very reasonable to me. But thinking that stacking cps in the rogue is the *only* solution is unimaginative. They can fix the bugginess with redirect and corpses; or fix the bugginess whith fok and corpses; they can even revert us back to when cps on corpses vanished.
    I agree that it shouldn't be the only solution. I would say it's probably the easiest solution, but it's also the dullest to be honest. I would much rather see a revamp of class mechanics along the lines of the Warlock so that each spec plays and feels different, but that's probably asking for too much.

    Ultimately, it's simply rooted enough in the class for it to mean something. If chi orholy power stack on the player, that's because they're newer implementations, much more streamlined; which is the same as to say: they are in fact less refined, less thought out mechanics. They've worked on rogue finishers to function like this for years because they think it adds flavor and meaning to the class; or it makes your decision makign deeper; or all of that together. If you don't like it, that's fine: I don't like everything either (I could use some changing of our class-yelow); but I'm able to understand that some people like what I don't.
    I simply don't agree. It isn't any sort of meaningful part of Rogue design. Stealth, attacking from shadows, poison? Sure, these are Rogue staples that seem to be a key part of a WoW Rogue. Combo points that build on the Rogue as opposed to the enemy? Hardly. It's a mechanic, not a flavour feature. Where the combo points are built doesn't affect the flavour of the class in the least. It's purely a quality of life issue, and a symptom of the lack of attention the class has gotten since vanilla.

  11. #51
    combo points add depth and increase skill cap. if you dont like them, rogue/feral are not for you. i dont like how rage is as a mechanic anymore and i dont play rage-based toons.

  12. #52
    Stood in the Fire Linneth's Avatar
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    Jan 2009
    I'll quote myself as it has been left unanswered:

    Let's imagine come 6.0 Blizzard decides to put Combo Points on the Rogue. At the same time, they remove any RNG free combo points, making the amount of Combo Points generated by an ability a fixed amount. They also change how Eviscerate works, adding a DoT component similar to Rupture when used at 4 or 5 Combo Points (the duration of the DoT increases if used with 5 instead of 4 Combo Points). The direct damage component of Eviscerate caps at 3 Combo Points. If you use another 4p or 5p Eviscerate you'll lose the damage from the previous DoT if it's still rolling.

    Thinking on the example above, answer this:

    - Are the "new" Combo Points the same thing as Chi or Holy Power?
    - Would you use Combo Points the same way when focusing an add no matter how much health it has?
    - Would this dynamic cost Combo System be less unique than current target-bound Combo System?
    Would having Combo Points on the Rogue while retaining or even improving the skill gap between bad, good and excellent Rogues when swapping be acceptable? The "skill" factor just wouldn't be tied to mechanical hurdles.

  13. #53
    I specifically don't play my rogue because of the crappy combo point system that exists right now. There's no reason for it to exist besides being different, but that excuse stops being valid when different is worse. It's a handicap, and not even a skill-based one at that. Redirect takes care of any "skill" argument, and basing a class mechanic solely around PVP in a game that offers abysmally unbalanced PVP to begin with is a joke. The only people benefiting from the current state of rogues are people who like to make things weirder (not harder, just inexplicably weirder) on themselves for not apparent reason. I can't stand the feel of building up to a powerful attack but then either having to eat the loss when an add prematurely dies or needing to click an extra button to have your character gain the added rage(? or whatever the lore reason is) or whatever to channel that attack on a different person. It's just...weird.

  14. #54
    personally not against the idea, but I believe it would come at serious cost to rogues CC rather than damage.

    Simply because building up CPs, then KSing healer multiple times would just be ridiculous (rather than Redirect 1m CD dictating this).

    I do totally get it for PVE, but tbh, it's been part of the class so long, it kind of defines it, and although I don't play my rogue much, I would be sad to see it change.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by TotallyRandom View Post
    personally not against the idea, but I believe it would come at serious cost to rogues CC rather than damage.

    Simply because building up CPs, then KSing healer multiple times would just be ridiculous (rather than Redirect 1m CD dictating this).

    I do totally get it for PVE, but tbh, it's been part of the class so long, it kind of defines it, and although I don't play my rogue much, I would be sad to see it change.
    umm building CPs and Killingspree the healer ? guess what this is possbile already you could also build ap cp's on play A kidney him shadowstep MfD player B use finisher of any kind and KS him how does that affect PVP ?

    mana on hunters was part of hunters for so long and arrows and stances and standing and casting was long time a part of hunters an defined them and YET focus working perfectly for them and they dont miss arrows at all and standing while casting is also not missed much why ? BECAUSE these things were the handicap of hunters and they got rid of this

    Quote Originally Posted by Phookah View Post
    Because then CP's are just Chi.
    no they are not since Chi works diffrently the spells that cost chi only cost chi and dont scale with the ammount of chi CP's scale with the amount a 4 CP finisher is weaker then a 5CP finisher simples as that
    Last edited by Koji2k11; 2013-08-18 at 01:46 AM.
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

    -Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

  16. #56
    Scarab Lord Phookah's Avatar
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    Mar 2012
    Zebes, SR-21
    Because then CP's are just Chi.

  17. #57
    Err, im pretty sure holy power/chi/whatever came after combo points, so if anything they are the ones who are "too similar" to our mechanic ^^'

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    I suggest you choose another way to argue, or quote, or format your post altogether. I'm not making points in favor of it: being in-game and people liking it is reason enough for it. If you can't understand the side of your opponent, you can't argue agaisnt them: I'm merely illustrating that side. And I will stress that I'm yet to find a good point -decent really- other than QOL issues, which can be solved without kiling a feature some people apparently like.

    -not vaild since you guys argue about traps and tanks specs >_>
    Who is 'you guys?' certainly not me.
    -not valid there are ppl who take gaming seriously and make money with it
    If an extremely low amount of people make a living on playing they probably need to up their game. The gamer will search for efficiency, not the designer.
    -not valid you simply cant think the whole fight through your head becasuse some raid leaders or groups tend to do things on the fly
    some raidleaders are ok with not being 100% efficient: not a game issue
    -is that even an argument ? did i miss something all rogue specs use CP how is that diffenciate rogues and how does that make me an excellent rogue ?
    Making better use of your CPs will make you a better rogue; if you can't think ahead and other people can, they are better than you. Then again, I'm not even arguing, I don't want to change your opinion (I don't particularly care about it), in fact I rather you keep your opinion, I'll keep mine.
    -the truth shows us how well classes are doing with their recourses tied to them
    non sequitur. The only truth is classes are different, and rogue is an excelently designed class
    -well the flexibility you talk about is non existent you cant choose its either stay on target or lose CP and you know thats a dps loss
    They added flexibility with redirect, that's very much existent.
    -niche mechanic ? the last time we had a niche it resulted in an combat nerf and 90% of the rogues stopped playing it
    Niche is something exclusive; in any case I don't even understand what is it you're arguing here
    -poisons did not diasappear they still exist they lost their physical form to free up our spaces hunters ammo dissapeared it doesnt increase their damage like it used to do
    Thanks for the history lesson, I'll keep it close to my vanishing powder; I'm sure I still have some on some old guy
    -how is that an argument you ran out of ideas ?
    I'm not arguing, merely explaining why some things are the way they are
    -in other games i tried some of them it works better and more fluid thats a fact not made up since wow is stealing ideas from other game too why not such things ?
    Totally successful games: you like them? well, majority of the entire world don't. And again: different game, different goals, different scope, different mechanics.
    -......... are you realy arguing here or just talk about ponys and rainbows ?
    I'm talking about game desing, which revolves around, you know, delivering on a fantasy, and creating dreams and fluffy stuff.
    -the majority wants it because it makes sense and would improve the QOL of all rogues by 100% imagine a world where you beat megaera without losing any cps you build up in one of her heads ? or where target switching might be fun to instead of moaning and saying damn dude i dont want to switch im losing 10% of my damage if i do so
    I doubt anyone knows what the majority of people want in this game; I'd guess most people don't care at all for either of the two options. In any case: sense is not a thing you really make when designign a game. You are, again, arguing for efficiency. Guess what coudl also make sense on that line of thinking: each cp generator always gives 5cp; you never lose a single cp that way. That would make a lot of sense too: total efficiency, total control, total boredom.

    If you loose more than 3 combo points in the whole fight against Megaera I suggest you keep learning to play rogue: it's fun, really :]. But you keep arguing for efficiency, which gaming is not about. But hey, I don't moan when I lose a CP: I make a mental note to play better next time. Having a mechanic involve less thinking rarely leads to more fun; but if you think it does, I would really -like really, really, seriously 100%- like to hear about it.

    I'm all for a world in which target switching is fun to any degree. Maybe you meant rewarding instead of fun? or maybe they're both the same thing: reward and fun. How rewarding is switching as a retry/windwalker? or is it that swiching is 0 fun and rogue is negative fun (punishing)? maybe fun is in overcoming and avoiding that punishing mechanic?
    I'd say swiching from a dead corpse is neutral fun (can be macroed)
    Swithing by tabbing decreases fun by, say, 5 (it's an annoyance)
    Loosing a cp as a rogue is -10fun extra fun for a total of -15 (annoyance plus punishment)
    But loosing 0cp as a rogue is +10fun (apparently it's a rare occurence?)
    Oh, but loosing 0 cps comes with an extra bonus +15 for feeling clever if you actively dumped your cps before the switch.
    So, being a retry/windwalker: fun ranges from -5 to 0. Being a rogue fun ranges from -15 to +25.
    Our game is much more rich. It may be punishing but the rewards are bigger. Your mileage may vary though. You'd be interested to know uncertainty increases dopamine levels exponentially. Designing a game is about puting obstacles in between the gamer and his or her goals. The degree and scope of those obstacles is the difficult part. Rogues have that mechanic in place as a clear obstacle: you decided it's annoying, others decided it's enticing.

    But yes: there's a QOL argument to be made -the only one really- and I adressed it: they can, like, fix the issues with it. I would like it if they fixed the bugs with corpses and vanishing units before they got rid of a perfectly valid mechanic.

    guess what rogue population is dropping its at an all time low we need to be brought back on par with othoter classes we need this update our class didnt change for years we as a class are old and old things tend to break over time and we reached the state where boss mechanics become more complex and broken stuff is unavoidable like meagera even IF we had redirect with no cd cps would still disappear
    I don't see an issue with being the underplayed class (some class necesarily needs to be underplayed, much like some class needs to be at the botom of the dps meter): it's been always like that and the sky is still high above.
    Last edited by nextormento; 2013-08-18 at 02:00 AM.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Tolkien View Post
    Err, im pretty sure holy power/chi/whatever came after combo points, so if anything they are the ones who are "too similar" to our mechanic ^^'
    well they are slightly modified CP's if you want to see it that way

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by nextormento View Post
    I don't see an issue with being the underplayed class (some class necesarily needs to be underplayed, much like some class needs to be at the botom of the dps meter): it's been always like that and the sky is still high above.
    im quoting this part since its not okay for blizzard that rogue class is underplayed they stated that there are more ret paladins then rogues and they want to adress it why would they even consider a rework if they think Rogues are totaly fine ?
    the ultimate answer's to all rogue issues :

    -Rogues might still be dealing with the changes to combo points {2014}

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Warstar View Post
    Explain lore because as far as I know there isn't a world of warcraft book out there where a rogue character is attacking someone and adding combo points...
    combo points: your attack combination is making the oponent more vulnerable, so yor finishing attack will be stronger the more you beat him before that.

    it makes no sense for your blows on one enemy to make the other one more vulnerable.
    Warlorcs of Draenorc made me quit. You can't have my stuff.

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