Alliance players have a right to be angry with MoP

[Deleted]

So you'd rather them leave the bomb, and allow the Horde to do what they please? Their counterattack is prepared and ready, they no longer need you to assist there, and they need someone to go find the bomb.

That could have played itself out rather nicely - especially considering how that anti-Baloon operations work out for Alliance in the end:

-We have found a massive bomb in an encampment! You must... go alert an outpost so that they can send you on an unrelated mission!
AWW SHEEEEEEIT the bomb got strapped to a Baloon! How could this happeeeeeeen??!!

-Quick! We got hold of the baloon while it is anchored by the mine! You must... enter the mine and kill the miners! YEAH!
AWW SHEEEEEEIT the baloon flew away with the bomb strapped to it! How could this happeeeeeeen??!!

-Quick! The bomb has been docked at the platform! You must... run around the platform and kill people like crazy!
AWW SHEEEEEEIT the baloon got away! How could this happeeeeeeeen??!!

-Quick! You must alert the command that the baloon is approaching! To do so, you must... go cleanse the remote grove of Old God influence! YEAH!!!
AWW SHEEEEEEIT the baloon nuked the sacred druid school into onlivion! HOW??? HOW COULD THIS HAPPEN??? BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

- - -
^Charming storyline, eh?
You know, I'd rather go to Stonetalon to deal with the aftermatch of this explosion from the start of the zone, rather than witness all of Alliance being made into massive cretins that are unable to help themselves until it is already too late for anything more than a butthurt, tear-propelled counter-offensive.

[Enosh]

Transpose this on the opposite point of view :
Would you call the Horde besieging Stormwind, killing every human found during the raid, and slaying Varian Wrynn a fist-bumping moment, or would you say it's nothing because the Defias Brotherhood and the other Alliance races helped a bit ?

to quote myself, changed a bit to better respond to your line of questioning

if first the alliance gets a whole expansion of kicking the horde up and down azeroth with no meaningful horde story anywhere, a new race added to both sides but only alliance gets to see the horde story to conclusion, their introduction to a zone cut and lets say velen being a major focus of the whole expansion and being "supposedly neutral" he just smites the shit out of some horde troops every now and then
at the end the alliance nukes some horde city
and then in the next expansion, the whole story would revolve around the rebel alliance faction fighting back against Varian while the horde gets to supply the rebels and get insulted for their troubles
also can't forget robot wolf instead of 2 battles!
and when all is done the horde just leaves and the alliance gets to keep everything it has gained in the last expansion no questions asked

I would be fist pumping all the way

context matters, juts flipping the end city and target doesn't mean anything, the context around is what is important, if the story was presented the same way as it is now, just with alliance and horde changed it would be different as if the whole story way changed and the siege of stormwind revolving mostly about the horde with meaningless alliance involvement and player reactions would be different

[Faroth]

As mentioned a thousand times over, the Horde didn't kick the alliance up and down azeroth. We took one small city, equal if not smaller than Taurajo which you took from us. Sylvanas secured her territory in a way that has alienated her from the rest of the Horde, similar to Moira's attempt at Ironforge earning her the distrust of the Alliance. Should more be shown in game? Hell yes it should. But the Horde got no more meaningful story than the Alliance did.

Going to have to disagree with you there. The Horde did very well for themselves under Garrosh's campaign and they claim a number of victories through Cataclysm. The Alliance manages to halt the war machine at certain points and push it back occasionally, though.

Thrall WAS neutral. Hell, he was neutral when he was the Warchief, and he was only just then having his model catch up.

Ironically, Thrall directly commands you to kill more Alliance soldiers in Cataclysm than he ever did as Warchief. He was MORE neutral when leading the Horde.
(With these forums, DISCLAIMER: I realize Thrall was captured, but c'mon....he DID have you kill 60 soldiers, some of whom were swimming around their ship and not in a position to attack. You can't tell me it's not a little amusing he was more peace loving beatnik as Warchief than he was during his temporary neutrality)

He was neutral in faction, but nobody believed he wasn't Horde. He IS the Horde. He's the icon, he's the mascot of the Horde. You can't just say "I left the city" and suddenly he's not the iconic symbol of the Horde. Tirion? Always has been and remains neutral forever. Malfurion? We've seen no indication of pursuing Alliance interests.

But that's not really the problem. His neutrality or not isn't an issue and people who say they were forced to deal with Thrall are simplifying it too much.

The problem with Thrall was they shoehorned him into places he didn't belong. The Firelands trailer shouldn't have featured Thrall, it should have featured the druids and Malfurion. The Aspects, Malfurion, and Thrall gather to restore Nordrassil....or something? They don't actually indicate what the ritual was for and it's forgotten and dropped for Thrall to announce he wants to be with Aggra. None of that made sense, to be honest. Deathwing didn't bless Nordrassil to begin with, so overall no idea what they were doing or why it was dropped and forgotten for Thrall to want to announce his marriage proposal.

And then the Benedictus storyline was kind of out of left field to take an Alliance figurehead and corrupt him but then have Thrall resolve that storyline. Thrall doesn't know Benedictus from Tom, Dick, or Harry so having Benedictus face off with Thrall was a bit weird.

I'd EXPECT to be insulted by Alliance. It's how it goes. In case you weren't aware, we're not allies, we work together because we HAVE to in this situation. We HATE ONE ANOTHER. The fact that Alliance got so butthurt about Vol'jin telling them off for being smartasses just shows that the Alliance is just looking for things to complain about.

Like you said...context.

Vol'jin doesn't have the forces to face Garrosh. Baine tells him he should consider allies outside the Horde.
Does Vol'jin seek help? No, the Alliance comes to him asking "how can we help you?"
When he tells you what to do, the Alliance asks the question "Why SHOULD we help you?"

Like you said, they hate one another and Vol'jin and the trolls have been killing Alliance happily for the last year or two with no sign of remorse. Suddenly we're supposed to just help you and do your bidding? No, they call him out "Why SHOULD we help?"
And his response, when he doesn't have the forces....he's been advised to SEEK OUT HELP...is to basically say "I'll watch you all slaughtered and raise you as undead corpses to be my slaves if you don't."
And that was the end of that conversation and we say "Okay" and do what he tells us to.
So I'll agree the Alliance player response was justified and calling him on his bluff and his reaction worked out pretty well, I thought.

But yeah, overall 5.3 could have been done better. I think most people agree on that point.

Reparations, however? I'm skeptical. All the Blizzard comments have basically been "If we said it happened and didn't show it, that would suck and we don't have time to show it, so no." I'm realllllly doubtful, but we'll see. Keep your expectations low and you're more likely to be pleasantly surprised than disappointed.

[Faroth]

It is pretty ironic, that much is for sure. But in all fairness, we see the same reaction from Jaina after the betrayal in Dalaran. (The whole 'kill everything, no escape' move)

Common mistake I see. Jaina didn't kill anyone in Dalaran and gave no order to do so. She imprisoned them in the Violet Hold for questioning.

This is the real problem. Thrall may have formed the Horde, but he ISN'T the Horde. He may have lead it, but he ISN'T the Horde. Bolvar lead the Alliance, despite being under the control of a dragon for quite some time. Is he the figurehead of the Alliance? If so, should we as Horde be upset that he's the new Lich King?

Not a valid comparison. Thrall IS indeed the Horde. Every marketing ad, every emphasis, every notation of the Horde, Thrall is the character Blizzard uses. He formed the Horde, he's the soul of the Horde from a creation and marketing aspect. It's like Mickey Mouse IS Disney. You don't see Mickey and think "oh he's a Squaresoft character" because of Kingdom Hearts. Thrall is the mascot character. Bolvar isn't the equivalent because the Alliance has no equivalent. They were hoping to make Varian into the iconic "Alliance" figure, but not quite the same in the end.

Plus, here we are in MoP and Thrall iiiiiiis.....Horde. Metzen told players straight up Thrall wasn't gone for good and he's coming back to the Horde at SDCC the year Cata came out. It's not like there was ever a question if Thrall would be a Horde character after his brief departure.
But I digress, and quote you to emphasize:

I personally don't feel his reaction suits him at all. Vol'jin has never been the type to say something and then regret it immediately afterwards. Sure, he regrets SOME things I'm sure, but to immediately just lose all sense of dignity and drop to his knees practically begging for help? That's not him. It's nothing like him. His previous statement was exactly what he would do; He'd hate the thought of working with you. He really would rather see you charge in without the rebellion, die, and be raised as undead if you chose not to help him.

He had no qualms coming to the Alliance for help against the united trolls in Cataclysm and that wasn't with his entire tribe at the edge of total annihilation. The actual problem, though, is that the Alliance have to go to him in the first place. Blizzard really just isn't good at these easy hits if you ask me. Having a small Alliance encampment where Vol'jin sends someone to request a parlay and you're sent to represent the Alliance would have worked on a few different levels. The primary one being Thrall didn't listen to Cairne; Vol'jin listens to Baine.

I get that saying that to someone you need help from isn't the best thing to do. But really, if that's the case why bother making it a statement in the first place? It upset the Alliance, and adding the crappy, out of character grovelling to make up for it upset the Horde. I'd have preferred to see that option entirely removed, cause now Vol'jin just looks like a pansy who can't back up what he says.

But he doesn't drop to his knees and beg. He just backs off and softens his response and says "Alright, alright, look I'll level with you. My group's in bad shape here. Truth is, we're not going to last against Garrosh without supplies. We both want Garrosh gone, we work towards a common goal." He basically drops the bravado and levels with the Alliance player and lays the cards on the table.

[Florena]

Going to have to disagree with you there. The Horde did very well for themselves under Garrosh's campaign and they claim a number of victories through Cataclysm. The Alliance manages to halt the war machine at certain points and push it back occasionally, though.


Ironically, Thrall directly commands you to kill more Alliance soldiers in Cataclysm than he ever did as Warchief. He was MORE neutral when leading the Horde.
(With these forums, DISCLAIMER: I realize Thrall was captured, but c'mon....he DID have you kill 60 soldiers, some of whom were swimming around their ship and not in a position to attack. You can't tell me it's not a little amusing he was more peace loving beatnik as Warchief than he was during his temporary neutrality)

He was neutral in faction, but nobody believed he wasn't Horde. He IS the Horde. He's the icon, he's the mascot of the Horde. You can't just say "I left the city" and suddenly he's not the iconic symbol of the Horde. Tirion? Always has been and remains neutral forever. Malfurion? We've seen no indication of pursuing Alliance interests.

But that's not really the problem. His neutrality or not isn't an issue and people who say they were forced to deal with Thrall are simplifying it too much.

The problem with Thrall was they shoehorned him into places he didn't belong. The Firelands trailer shouldn't have featured Thrall, it should have featured the druids and Malfurion. The Aspects, Malfurion, and Thrall gather to restore Nordrassil....or something? They don't actually indicate what the ritual was for and it's forgotten and dropped for Thrall to announce he wants to be with Aggra. None of that made sense, to be honest. Deathwing didn't bless Nordrassil to begin with, so overall no idea what they were doing or why it was dropped and forgotten for Thrall to want to announce his marriage proposal.

And then the Benedictus storyline was kind of out of left field to take an Alliance figurehead and corrupt him but then have Thrall resolve that storyline. Thrall doesn't know Benedictus from Tom, Dick, or Harry so having Benedictus face off with Thrall was a bit weird.



Like you said...context.

Vol'jin doesn't have the forces to face Garrosh. Baine tells him he should consider allies outside the Horde.
Does Vol'jin seek help? No, the Alliance comes to him asking "how can we help you?"
When he tells you what to do, the Alliance asks the question "Why SHOULD we help you?"

Like you said, they hate one another and Vol'jin and the trolls have been killing Alliance happily for the last year or two with no sign of remorse. Suddenly we're supposed to just help you and do your bidding? No, they call him out "Why SHOULD we help?"
And his response, when he doesn't have the forces....he's been advised to SEEK OUT HELP...is to basically say "I'll watch you all slaughtered and raise you as undead corpses to be my slaves if you don't."
And that was the end of that conversation and we say "Okay" and do what he tells us to.
So I'll agree the Alliance player response was justified and calling him on his bluff and his reaction worked out pretty well, I thought.

But yeah, overall 5.3 could have been done better. I think most people agree on that point.

Reparations, however? I'm skeptical. All the Blizzard comments have basically been "If we said it happened and didn't show it, that would suck and we don't have time to show it, so no." I'm realllllly doubtful, but we'll see. Keep your expectations low and you're more likely to be pleasantly surprised than disappointed.

Amber and Sully give you plenty of reason for why you're approaching Vol'jin. I also like that at the very least we're proactively seeking him out if all they were going to give us was that robo kitty quest rather than responding to a plea for aid from Vol'jin.

[Furbolger]

I'd say that it's not so much about winning or losing, its about how its done. The Alliance got its ass kicked in WCI and III, and even for most of WCII right down to the Siege of Capital City, but they were awesome and heroic anyways. In WoW, whenever the Alliance loses they appear wimpy and apparently don't care that much, while when they win they appear to be assholes or maniacs (Looking at you Jaina! Oh, also it backfires.)
So sure, by the end of MoP the Allies will have invaded a Horde capital for the second time, but both times it will have helped the Horde more than it did the Alliance and they dont really look cool doing it. Still, we should probably wait until the final cutscene after Garrosh' fall and how badass Varian is gonna be there.
I dont really care about the balance of sides winning and losing, I care about storytelling and building up character for individual leaders and the factions as a whole, and I feel like its often lazily done and there is little consistency.

PS: Ashenvale, Andorhall and the Southern Barrens in Cat. were excellent in my opinion, and the latter two in particular are good examples of how the losing side can still be portrayed in a cool way.

[Talen]

PS: Ashenvale, Andorhall and the Southern Barrens in Cat. were excellent in my opinion, and the latter two in particular are good examples of how the losing side can still be portrayed in a cool way.

Ashenvale is held up as an example of how not to do it....by stopping the Alliance story half way through.
Andorhal is help up as an example of how not to do it...by pulling the rug out from under the Alliance player with a "We won!!! Now retreat!!!" turnaround and the use of a Deus Ex Machina (Val'kyr) to grant victory.

EJL

[Deleted]

It's hilarious when people mix common sence and logic with the world of warcraft world

[Sierra85]

In WoW, whenever the Alliance loses they appear wimpy and apparently don't care that much, while when they win they appear to be assholes or maniacs (Looking at you Jaina! Oh, also it backfires.)

That's a matter of your own perspective though isn't it. I never thought the alliance seemed wimpy or assholes in victory or loss. It's just the way the characters play out.

[Durandro]

Alliance LAYS SIEGE ON THE HORDE'S CAPITAL and SLAYS THE WARCHIEF, wether you give a damn about the Horde Rebellion or not.

Repeating this over and over and over again just continues to prove you and others like you don't understand the nature of the discontent.

Seriously, quit it.

Oh, and if the reverse happened and the Alliance got all the writers' attention and lore development? Damn right Horde players would be pissed off. I know EXACTLY what they'd be saying:

"WTF we help take Stormwind, but don't get to keep hold of it or destroy it? And we don't even get anything else out of it? WTF Blizz?"

THAT is exactly what would be said! And they'd be right!

[Aquamonkey]

Andorhal is help up as an example of how not to do it...by pulling the rug out from under the Alliance player with a "We won!!! Now retreat!!!" turnaround and the use of a Deus Ex Machina (Val'kyr) to grant victory.

Same thing happened for the Horde in Fenris Keep... by pulling the rug out from under the Horde player with a "We won!!! Now retreat!!!" turnaround and the use of a Deus Ex Machina (Worgen curse) to grant victory.

[Durandro]

so the alliance are suppose to take over orgrimmar and run the horde like post WW2 germany? now thats story inbalance

No. That's never been the argument or suggestion.

But you know what? If they did that, it would be fine. Because post WW2 Germany PROSPERED because of the money pumped into it by the Western Allies. So its a really poor comparison to even suggest!

[Aquamonkey]

No. That's never been the argument or suggestion.

But you know what? If they did that, it would be fine. Because post WW2 Germany PROSPERED because of the money pumped into it by the Western Allies. So its a really poor comparison to even suggest!

Damnit. If only the Alliance occupied Orgrimmar and reconstructed it. I was hoping for proper sanitation, working plumbing, and real infrastructure. So far, the only thing Orgrimmar has done right is that mail is delivered on time.

[Furbolger]

Ashenvale is held up as an example of how not to do it....by stopping the Alliance story half way through.
Andorhal is help up as an example of how not to do it...by pulling the rug out from under the Alliance player with a "We won!!! Now retreat!!!" turnaround and the use of a Deus Ex Machina (Val'kyr) to grant victory.

EJL

I did say it was excellent in my opinion, didn't I?
In my view the criticism is unfair, because we leave Ashenvale on a high note after a string of victories and with a general feeling that the Night Elves have some awesome military might when they bring it to bear. Obviously we cant have the whole zone to ourselves after that, since its not a singleplayer game.
I thought Andorhal is a nicely told story, in that we have some victories and see how the Alliance can be effective only to have it dramatically go awry when the Forsaken use, arguably, unethical means ( that is Scourge-tactics). It in no way diminishes the Alliance's valor or heroism, and in fact strenghtens our resolve to fight the now even more clearly evil (in our eyes) Forsaken.
Your mileage may vary, of course.

[Aquamonkey]

The debate over faction story development continues internally here at Blizzard, as it does on the forums and elsewhere.

Any chance we can get more updates on that debate? We get constant updates on gameplay mechanics from Ghostcrawler and other CMs about their thoughts and feelings, but we only rarely hear things from Kosak and friends. It'd be very helpful if they started talking to us and telling us what they're hearing, because right now it seems like there's a really big communication gap.
It's something we're working on. I'd love to set up more story-centric interviews and conversations with the community. But, while Dave and Greg are both design leads, it's very difficult to compare their tasks, workloads, and roles within the community.

Systems design is extremely complicated, but it revolves primarily around math. It's easier to have a conversation over class balance concerns and walk away with some objective, actionable feedback. We also try not to change classes too dramatically from patch to patch -- we don't want people logging in and suddenly not knowing how to play their class every time they download a new patch. Greg can talk about general changes early on in a patch's development cycle, and then he can take feedback and look at an array of statistical data we collect in order to finetune numbers closer to the patch's release.

Story development works very differently. Concerns are much more subjective. This isn't to say they're inherently less valuable, as we're always taking careful note of what the popular opinion is on a given topic. But, there's often a degree of complexity to story development concerns that certainly can't be addressed by changing a couple values somewhere in the game code. And the story we want to tell, combined with the gameplay we want to introduce, is determined much earlier on in development than what class balance will look like in patch X.

For example, there are several people in this thread asserting that the entire concept of the Siege of Orgrimmar is flawed from a story perspective, particularly for the Alliance. Well, we knew Siege of Orgrimmar would be the final raid of Mists of Pandaria before the expansion was revealed at BlizzCon 2011, and the story framework for how we'd get there was already more or less in place. So, even when we do react directly to feedback about story concerns, we're looking much more at the big picture here, and what stories we want to tell and how they should unfold over the course of several patches (or even expansions).

We can make some tweaks and refine some story arcs along the way, but regardless of the discussions taking place right now, the 5.4 story is set. It has been for quite some time. That's in big contrast to the aspects of systems design that draw the most discussion (i.e. mainly class balance).

So, tying this back to the varying capacities in which Dave and Greg engage the community, I couldn't be very liberal with Dave's time when it came to booking interviews. I found about an hour of his time (hour and a half if you count that I stole part of his lunch break) and sat him down for back-to-back interviews -- in, out, and done in one swoop. The reason being that his role in the development of a patch happens at a very different stage of the cycle. At this point he's not actively reading PTR feedback and tweaking how the Horde and Alliance are responding to the threat of Garrosh, or deciding to rework the conclusion of the siege. It's way too late for that, and he's already very busy working on the stories yet to unfold in World of Warcraft. And, yes, in that space he takes popular feedback to heart.

Dave Kosak... I just don't know anyone more passionate about this game's narrative, or more burdened with the responsibility of making sure that the story is fun to play through regardless of the faction, race, or class a player chooses. He cares deeply about you feeling personally invested in what you're doing, and whether you're red or blue certainly doesn't change that.

All this being stated, I want to add more words to this post.

Part of my role on the WoW Community Team is fansite/influencer relations, which includes booking developer interviews. I've been on the team for six years, but I took on the role of fansite relations shortly before Mists of Pandaria was released. Not counting things like PAX or other press events, I've been responsible for booking developer interviews for five press rounds (5.0-5.4). Each time I experiment with the formula by trying to cover different formats, give different sites or people a chance to talk to the devs, etc.

Looking back on the last five rounds to determine how we can improve the process and results going forward, I'll tell you right now that I'm most interested in bringing story discussion more to the forefront of interviews -- including WoW devs like Dave Kosak, as well as folks from Creative Dev like Chris Metzen and Micky Neilson -- and getting our artists involved more regularly, 'cause you don't hear from them enough. And finally, while I understand the importance of having a mix of text, audio, and video formats, I want the developers on camera more. I believe strongly that the more you get to see and hear the individual behind the name, the better!

[Heldamon]

It would be so great to have Orgrimmar displayed destroyed from the siege after the SoO patch. Building collaped, bodies everywhere, destruction and stuff, broken machinery and equipment.
And then after the Alliance leaves month per month cleaning up the place, putting some construction boards, cranes, materials gathered (like for AQ gates) and in some time having for the Horde a small event of the final rebuild of Orgrimmar. A celebration for a new start, a new era.

See how easily you can have an epic event and keep both factions happy. Yes the siege happened. Orgrimmar got invaded BUT now it's fixed.

[Aquamonkey]

It would be so great to have Orgrimmar displayed destroyed from the siege after the SoO patch. Building collaped, bodies everywhere, destruction and stuff, broken machinery and equipment.
And then after the Alliance leaves month per month cleaning up the place, putting some construction boards, cranes, materials gathered (like for AQ gates) and in some time having for the Horde a small event of the final rebuild of Orgrimmar. A celebration for a new start, a new era.

See how easily you can have an epic event and keep both factions happy. Yes the siege happened. Orgrimmar got invaded BUT now it's fixed.

Psure a lot of Alliance fans will cry "Horde bias" at Orgrimmar getting so many makeovers while SW still has a smoking crater.

[Theendgamelv3]

Repeating this over and over and over again just continues to prove you and others like you don't understand the nature of the discontent.

Seriously, quit it.

Oh, and if the reverse happened and the Alliance got all the writers' attention and lore development? Damn right Horde players would be pissed off. I know EXACTLY what they'd be saying:

"WTF we help take Stormwind, but don't get to keep hold of it or destroy it? And we don't even get anything else out of it? WTF Blizz?"

THAT is exactly what would be said! And they'd be right!

I would understand why we can't due to gameplay reasons if the opposite is true. Gameplay trumps lore and reason.

[notorious98]

That's a matter of your own perspective though isn't it. I never thought the alliance seemed wimpy or assholes in victory or loss. It's just the way the characters play out.

Wait. The Alliance wins? I guess I should be paying attention to other things outside of Battlegrounds.

- - - Updated - - -

I would understand why we can't due to gameplay reasons if the opposite is true. Gameplay trumps lore and reason.

The problem is that you're attempting to equate yourself to those Alliance players that are irritated by this. I'm an Alliance player and I feel the same way that you do. However, the types of Horde players that are like the Alliance players who are complaining would be having a massive bitchfest if the opposite held true. If there was a raid in SW and the Horde went in to kill an insane Varian Wrynn and then handed SW back to the Alliance, there would be a large number of Horde players pissed off by that.

[Yarathir]

Psure a lot of Alliance fans will cry "Horde bias" at Orgrimmar getting so many makeovers while SW still has a smoking crater.

As an Alliance fan, I actually agree when you say that would happen. They'd probably state how those resources could have gone into repairing Stormwind and how it is Horde bias. :P