Button Bloat - Rogue Edition

[zurm]

No, the ramifications of subtracting buttons are absolute. Games with less buttons have to buy back their skillcap in other ways. Many games rely on extremely low reaction times, for instance, to separate the good from the bad. My reaction times have gone down since my teens, even with constant practice, so I'm going to naturally gravitate towards the games that don't punish me for not being nineteen. The situational use of abilities is very much a thing to expect to find in an RPG, from D&D on forward.

You and I have gone back and forth in this thread many times, and at this point we can agree to disagree. I'll agree that those who PvP a lot will see more use out of certain abilities than those who PvE (and of course the other way). Shadow-walk is useful and hell I've used on occasion. I will still argue many abilities are there to support bloated mechanics that really add unnecessary complexity to the game and hinder balance (like levels of stealth). I will also argue cooldowns to reset cooldowns is simply bad design and absolutely button bloat. However, there is one flaw here I *MUST* address.

Your assumption about the number of abilities influencing skill-cap is a fallacy in many cases, just not rogue. Just to preface: this is strictly speaking for PvE. WoW's PvP balance is atrocious and basically a giant game of rock-paper-scissors, IMO (you can try to convince me otherwise, but seasons of gladiator breakdowns will prove otherwise how class comp matters more than skill). Lets take a look at a class that is quite similar to rogue in a lot of ways: the retribution paladin. Ever hear of a mod called CLCRet (or CLCInfo, which now can be used for virtually any class)? The issue of button bloat becomes trivialized into a game of simon says. Rogue is simple enough dealing with maintaining buffs/debuffs, but when you start dealing with cooldowns that don't line up and a priority queue involving 5+ abilities, very few people can actually juggle that much information on a GCD-by-GCD basis. Now it has gotten better since WOTLK (when it was really required with 4pc), but it sheds light on a glaring issue with the game. The bloat has grown to the point that very few people can get the information they need from the default UI. Anticipation, Tigereye Brew, all these extra mechanics that simply involve a Nth level resource to watch. On top of that, you have bosses with 5-10 abilities on timers that aren't multiples of each other, so there's no pattern. You HAVE to use a custom UI (the default WoW UI is so terrible they absolutely HAVE to keep supporting custom UIs) to manage all that information with addons like WeakAuras and DBM. So I guess my complaint isn't with the button bloat alone so much as the combination of too many buttons with a UI that doesn't properly handle it. And then I have to spend hours configuring it to provide information in a format that I can handle it. It's not that I CAN'T handle all the buttons in the game, but I do have to work to a point where I can. Perhaps it's just that I prefer twitch-based gameplay, and I'm trying to project that onto WoW.

[Kulestu]

I hate tricks and we could do without it. Or at least removing the energy cost.

[Feindy]

whaaaat, its an awesome ability. gives you a small buff for extra burst. everybody in the raid is like tot me, please, haha .D
plus its the only fun ability we have-just trick someone while killing trash and use all your cooldowns haha or tot them while they are dividing the loot

[Kulestu]

Except you're expected to use it on cooldown and it costs a decent chunk of energy. I lose almost as much damage from throwing out tricks as I would get by having it on cooldown. I just use it on classes that can use it to boost their damage more than a passive class could, like a fire mage.

[Deleted]

Really, the only ability that's worthless right not is Pick Lock... ... well, or maybe Preparation, a cooldown to reset cooldowns is.. meh.

Keep everything else.

Except you're expected to use it on cooldown and it costs a decent chunk of energy. I lose almost as much damage from throwing out tricks as I would get by having it on cooldown. I just use it on classes that can use it to boost their damage more than a passive class could, like a fire mage.

On the topic of TotT; is there a certain damage threshold at which point it gets worthy to use?
I get massively different damage numbers from it, ranging all the way from 45k to 600k, depending on when I use it and on who. I've gone as far as to bind the cooldowns of my raid members into WeakAuras so I can see who has a cooldown running so I know who to trick, but still, it feels a little like Russian roulette.

[Koji2k11]

TotT make it a raid cd worth using give it a 5% dmg bosst for 10 seconds 1 minute cooldown ^^ its time for some new raid CD's the reduce this reduce that cd's are so boring

[Linneth]

TotT make it a raid cd worth using give it a 5% dmg bosst for 10 seconds 1 minute cooldown ^^ its time for some new raid CD's the reduce this reduce that cd's are so boring

Seems balanced.

[Koji2k11]

Seems balanced.

dont nail me on the % and time and CD it's just an idea but it's still a better way then the current where just 1 person recives tricks for 6 seconds

[Kulestu]

Really, the only ability that's worthless right not is Pick Lock... ... well, or maybe Preparation, a cooldown to reset cooldowns is.. meh.

Keep everything else.



On the topic of TotT; is there a certain damage threshold at which point it gets worthy to use?
I get massively different damage numbers from it, ranging all the way from 45k to 600k, depending on when I use it and on who. I've gone as far as to bind the cooldowns of my raid members into WeakAuras so I can see who has a cooldown running so I know who to trick, but still, it feels a little like Russian roulette.

Whoever pays me the most? At this point in the tier, my raid is just filled with people trying to parse and beat each other. In progression, it depends. I throw it on a fire mage or warlock when they're doing their setup damage (typically at the start of the fight). On a fight like Tortos, the DK gets most of my Tricks, and he gets it when the bats come down. Holding the ToT for a little bit to wait for bats is more important than throwing it on cooldown. It's just about knowing the fights and your raid group. Who's going to use it best, and when. I have a tendency to give first and third to fire mages, for Combustion cooldowns.

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dont nail me on the % and time and CD it's just an idea but it's still a better way then the current where just 1 person recives tricks for 6 seconds

I simply dislike the idea that it costs energy to use our main utility, which reduces our damage done. I know it's nothing major, but it occasionally throws off my envenom timing and gets kind of annoying. Seems weird that a pure DPS class has that mechanic, and it seems outdated.

[Koji2k11]

I simply dislike the idea that it costs energy to use our main utility, which reduces our damage done. I know it's nothing major, but it occasionally throws off my envenom timing and gets kind of annoying. Seems weird that a pure DPS class has that mechanic, and it seems outdated.

well this is why i suggested making it a raid CD so you dont have to click it every 30 seconds also taking it off GCD would be nice to see and reduce/remove energy cost

[Verain]

I will admit I do have several copies of tricks of the trade, and they provide me with some fun fiddling but ultimately don't make a HUGE difference. Tricks as a raid cooldown would be... interesting.

Still, I do like nailing the tricks correctly. On our fights, the two top overall dps are usually me, our warlock, and our shadow priest. The warlock gets a lot of his damage from his pets, so I have a hard time getting a high value tricks on him. The shadow priest gets a huge benefit (not reported by trick or treat) if I tricks his dot refresh, but less return otherwise. Meanwhile, we have an elemental shaman and a fire mage, both of whom can make incredible damage in short periods (and are ideal for tricks). Then I also have my old tricks focus macro, and of course, mundane tricks. So tricks is a lot of button.

[xquizite]

What i would like to see:

Tricks of the Trade
- Removed : Sometimes accounts for less then .001% damage and othertimes can be up to 5%+. Hard to balance and only effects the non rogue.
- Reworked : While steath and for 3 seconds after leaving stealth a rogue occurs no threat gains. Seeing as were rogues and by definition should atleast be able to get a few abilities off before someone/thing notices.

Crimson Tempest
- Removed : This spell was only worth it for about 5 mins until they realized that rogues would do more damage then any other class if their aoe ability actually did anything useful. Almost every class can "spam" 1-2 spells and outdo our damage since the fix to CoT. Considering that now its almost a wash whether to envenom fok or CoT it is rarely used effectively (helps me rank on tort bats).
- Reworked : Allow CoT to give you envenom buff as assasin and maybe scale it better for sub.

Shadow Walk
-Reworked: Passive - Instantly applied upon entering stealth.

Redirect
- Removed once cp's are on player.
- Reworked : Moves rupture / dp to another target.

Gouge
- Removed/Reworked : I've always enjoyed gouge from a skill standpoint but am unsure how much of a difference it really makes anymore. A good ability to interrupt or even confuse people in pvp. Could it somehow be added to throw or throw added to it to help with button bloat. Completely useless in PvE and could be baked into something else in PvP.

Expose armor
- Reworked : I think this should be made passive, 25% chance per melee swing to add a stack. If a hunter pet can do it so can a rogue. Otherwise i think they need to make the actual strike do some comparable damage or allow us to maintain it with envenom / evis once it's applied. Similar to sunder armor via glyph.


These are just some ideas, some better then others i'm sure.

[timbo117]

i use tricks on tanks only once on pull otherwise i get one shot coz i take aggro from my beastly dps =/

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i like this guy.

[Verain]

What i would like to see:

I generally dislike your ideas, but your CT idea is solid.

Tricks of the Trade
- Removed : Sometimes accounts for less then .001% damage and othertimes can be up to 5%+. Hard to balance and only effects the non rogue.

Who cares who it "effects"? Does it bother you that recount is recording your damage in the wrong color?

If you are getting good tricks, that's excellent work, and you should be rewarded for it.

Crimson Tempest
- Removed : This spell was only worth it for about 5 mins until they realized that rogues would do more damage then any other class if their aoe ability actually did anything useful. Almost every class can "spam" 1-2 spells and outdo our damage since the fix to CoT. Considering that now its almost a wash whether to envenom fok or CoT it is rarely used effectively (helps me rank on tort bats).
- Reworked : Allow CoT to give you envenom buff as assasin and maybe scale it better for sub.

I would prefer that mutilate get a "poison bottle" kind of finisher. Crimson Tempest is hard to use properly and is unexciting when it does work (and our aoe in general is pretty trashcan compared to specs with much lower execution). But your idea would be solid too- if it created the envenom buff at the same time, mutilate would have a reason to use it. Now it would just need a reason to function for combat.

Personally, I think CT could just use a raw goddamned buff period. Like, 20% better as a start. Who is gonna be sad about that?

Shadow Walk
-Reworked: Passive - Instantly applied upon entering stealth.

Terrible idea, just awful.

Shadow Walk is meant to be used actively when you suspect another stealther and you need greater metastealth, or when you suspect your stealth might be compromised by increased detection. Having it trigger automatically makes it dumb. Having it permanent just is the same as deleting it.

Redirect
- Removed once cp's are on player.
- Reworked : Moves rupture / dp to another target.

Interesting rework idea, very strong on swaps. Could maybe even unglyph blind in your world, good idea.

Gouge
- Removed/Reworked : I've always enjoyed gouge from a skill standpoint but am unsure how much of a difference it really makes anymore. A good ability to interrupt or even confuse people in pvp. Could it somehow be added to throw or throw added to it to help with button bloat. Completely useless in PvE and could be baked into something else in PvP.

I wouldn't want to give up gouge unless we got an entirely other CC. It is a frustrating CC because of all the comps we can't use it with, but it is powerful and flavorful.

Expose armor
- Reworked : I think this should be made passive, 25% chance per melee swing to add a stack. If a hunter pet can do it so can a rogue. Otherwise i think they need to make the actual strike do some comparable damage or allow us to maintain it with envenom / evis once it's applied. Similar to sunder armor via glyph.

The hunter pet is giving something UP to do it though. On live, so are we, and it isn't that much. But EA could be done differently. I just rather like the current version- we even get to make CPs very cheaply if, for instance, the target isn't taking damage anyway.

[kilj]

Why don't we just turn this game into diablo 3..... ffs, you dont have to put all those buttons on your bars so stop your crying. Also learn to use shit alt ctrl modifiers and simply things....

[xquizite]

Why don't we just turn this game into diablo 3..... ffs, you dont have to put all those buttons on your bars so stop your crying. Also learn to use shit alt ctrl modifiers and simply things....

When you actually play at a high lvl of either PvE or PvP you will often have keyinds for the majority if not every single ability your class has. I have almost everything keybound that's relevant to me in any combat situation. Flaming this thread with the idea we want it to be like diablo 3 is a bit much. D3 has only a fraction of the keybinds wow has.

What i would imagine this thread to be about is uncovering what keys are either rarely used or not impactful enough to warrant an actual button.

[Kulestu]

The nice thing about being a Rogue is that we don't really have anymore buttons than any other class, but a decent portion of them are flavor or in stealth (new action bar, same binds). Classes like Hunters, on the other hand, have straight up too many buttons.

[kilj]

Eventually this game will get to a diablo state tho... You can only use 6 buttons at a time... enjoy.....

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infracted: trolling

[Rigapples]

Tricks of the Trade should have its cost removed and Damage Buff removed. Make it simply a way to misdirect an add onto the tank. It has its uses even in this tier. (Dark Animus as a prime example on heroic during the pull, depending on your strategy. Bats on Tortos Heroic is another. Great ability on some fights.)

Crimson Tempest: Either buff it so it is worth using or remove it.

Pick Locks/Pickpocket: I see no problem with these - they do not add to button bloat as they are not in a normal rotation and shouldn't be on any of your main bars unless you are pickpocket farming or trying to open a lot of boxes quickly.

Slice and Dice: Bake it into our attack speed. I've been hitting this button for 8 years and it does nothing but buff our white damage. Get rid of it.

Preparation: Remove and lower the CD of the abilities themselves, or give them (2) stacks that replenish at the same rate of the current CD.

Expose Armor: The only people that should have this on their bars are the people in 10M who need to use it as a debuff because nobody else can apply it in the current raid. I happen to fall into this category and you would be significantly nerfing our raid comp if it was removed from Rogues. It provides us small utility to those of us who need it. This should not be removed.

Shadow Walk: Does anyone use this? I guess in PvP it might be very helpful but we are Rogues.. just bake it in and remove this.

Recuperate: Make this passive and only active when the rogue is below 50% health. (or 30%? Similar to how Warriors work.. I guess that might irk people against homogenization but it's a waste of CPs for a below average heal. Get rid of it.)

Revealing Strike: Rework this to be proc based (might be too similar to Assassination at that point) or remove it. Clunky implementation. Not fun in rotation.

These are my opinions of course. I think the Rogue problem is not of ability bloat but crappy, poorly designed rotations and abilities interacting with eachother. Most of them would be better off being reworked or simply replaced with some better vision.

[Demeia]

I think at least one rogue spec should get combo points on the rogue. In any case, once that option is available, redirect is not that necessary.

If I were a dev, I'd make a note of that. It might be the best compromise between the two schools of thought.

1) Baking Expose armor into FoK or some other damaging attack is quite sensible.

1b) I'd get rid of throw and replace it with shuriken throw--but give it a cooldown that's removed by glyph. Technically that doesn't reduce button bloat but might be nice when you need a pull and you get a single combo point (or 2). Throw is inelegant, shurken throw thematic.

2) Prep. Surely it's days are numbered.

3) Shadowwalk: It just seems like it doesn't do enough to warrant the skill. It would be a good condidate to remove and replace with something more practical. That said, If it were bundled with distraction, lockpicking, group stealth, into a nice lil' Portal-style grouping, it would be absolutely fine. Probably it will die, though, to make room for something more interesting.

4) Redirect: I'm actually finding myself drawn to the combo-points on rogue camp but for that to work you'd probably need a different AoE system for rogues. Ramping up damage isn't unreasonable when target switching and is a useful way to balance us in PvP. I'd keep this button and rework the AoE system, really--but I bet they end up removing it and put combo points on rogue. A Verian-style compromise is probably what they should do.

5) Tricks of the Trade: Well... No. This is probably just an irritating talent now. It could certainly be saved or redeemed if we have to remove five, this would be a good one.

I suspect the person who suggested the stealth/non-stealth combination of abilities has the way that, if implemented properly, would pretty much win the thread since it would be fairly non-controversial.