Button Bloat - Rogue Edition

[Verain]

i think you guys are missing the main reason they removed backstab from assassination
they can buff backstab without buffing assassination same thing for envenom

Well, they could do that before actually. There was a passive that only assassination had for backstab (the energy cost), and a similar one for subt. Both were out of reach of the other and mandatory in pve. So they always had those knobs.

The dispatch addition did the following:

1)- Removed positioning. This is HUGE, because we finally have one spec without this concern.
2)- Got us our energy bar back. With 120 energy and dispatch, we have well over half the bar to play with. We can pool, etc. With the only energy ranges we cared about between 60 and 120, we had a really odd situation.
3)- Bought us a move in pvp. The previous combinations meant that you would often not even spec this execute in pvp- not only was it hard to use because of positioning and health levels, but you would normally go from 70 to 100 energy before your first one would even land- and any CC would then destroy energy as well. You were often better continuing to mutilate- at least that would get you combo points for sure!
4)- Bought us the proc, though this could have been done with backstab.

can nerf eviscerate without touching assassination etc

Well, an eviscerate nerf still hurts BOTH C and S.

[zurm]

i think you guys are missing the main reason they removed backstab from assassination
they can buff backstab without buffing assassination same thing for envenom
can nerf eviscerate without touching assassination etc

They can get around this by making a sub passive that increases/decreases dispatch damage by X%. Boom problem solved.

GW2 I wanted nothing to do with, mostly based on their ability evisceration. I want a character that feels like she's in the actual game world- her interaction with that world should be much broader than just 10 skills. I want cool powers.

SWTOR I like and play lightly, but it has a lot of buttons as well- and the ones it is missing, I generally miss. Over there, I play a scoundrel. Scoundrel Verain has three specs to pick from- one is like a dot based spec, one is kind of like a subtlety retribution paladin, and the last is like a resto han solo.

Giant block of text inc... I'm sorry.

I liked your anecdote about SW:TOR, though I thoroughly enjoyed huttball. Admittedly I haven't played it in a LONG time; I quit 2 months in due to lack of endgame. I don't remember ability bloat being an issue at all on my Mercenary, though. Perhaps the classes differ a lot, or the game has just evolved to have more bloat now. As far as GW2, I feel like you did yourself a disservice because it wasn't "wow-ish" enough. Those 10 abilities were VERY well done, and because there were fewer that offered more time to spend on both the appearance and balance of each one... as well as more class diversity. If Blizzard ever wants to release a demon hunter class they are screwed, because they've given so many of the abilities to warlocks.

Along these same lines, we are now left with vestigial abilities left over from this mass homogenization that are left in the game because... because... well FLAVOR! Shiv is a perfect example of that 1% ability. It had a purpose way back when... but now it's only there for that rare enrage mechanic which exists... in one scenario I've done (the sha one). We certainly don't use it for the poison. Prep, distract, pick lock, and pick pocket are a few that I put under the category of bloat, but only there because blizzard at one point decided this was a niche that absolutely needed filling even though it really serves little to no purpose in the game currently (prep because the same idea can be accomplished more elegantly, whether by shorter baseline CD or charges). Yes, I understand distract has pvp implications ... sometimes; additionally I've seen it worth using occasionally for challenge modes. Even poisons seem strange and inconsistent... why put poisons as an extending ability on the bar when seals are stances for paladins? Why does stealth have to be there?

Either way, to each their own. I think there's a lot to be said about the PvP style GW2/LoL/Dota/Etc have adopted. A few abilities, well tuned, and short CC. The cameras may be different, but the concept is not. To be fair, only one CC would be REALLY boring and predictable... it was more of an extreme case hypothetical. I doubt WoW will ever receive an overhaul of that magnitude. The problem with the current game is in pvp you typically spend a crazy high percentage of the time actually not playing and feeling helpless, watching things unfold while you wait to be dispelled/CC trinket/cooldown out of whatever crap the mage/lock has you permanently locked in. No matter how you cut it, it's frustrating and a bad user experience. Since WoW is a GAME, and games should be FUN, frustrating mechanics are typically not good. Obviously you can't give everyone god-mode, one shot, 100yd AoE spamable abilities, but they went too far. CC in this game has devolved into a horrendous mess and for me PvP in this game is a joke because of it. PvP, in my mind, should be about perfectly timed interrupts and coordinated burst, not who can out-cc whom.

You also mentioned roll. GW2 gave EVERYONE roll; much like monk roll, you had a bar that held two charges worth, allowing you to dodge twice in succession but then having to wait for a recharge. I believe Neverwinter did this as well. There were also no dedicated healers/tanks. Everyone, in the last 5 slots, had a heal (3 choices), an ultimate (3 choices), and three discretionary slots (20-30 choices). Obviously WoW could not have this model, but the important thing is, everyone had a strong mobility option to get out of stuff, and a limited set of tools.

I feel a lot of your desires for something like Prep in SW:TOR are only there because WoW has ingrained it. It's bad design, which existed because they didn't have a better technical solution. Now, things like Monk's Roll charges are around; this is a much more elegant solution to the same problem, and allows you to not fck over other CDs when you really need another (as in, your evasion isn't on cooldown, but you prep anyway because you need vanish). You could argue that adds extra thought into the problem, but I argue it's artificial need created by previous poor design choices or lack of technology.

With all that being said, let me leave with this. The changes I mention will almost certainly never happen, at least in their entirety. Removing a lot of the stuff in game, however bad it is, would be like turning WoW into something that's not WoW. Long CC's are not fun and generally bad design, IMO... but they are WoW's bad design. And WoW certainly does a lot right... there IS a reason I came back. Suffice to say, I don't think the rogue community would ever come to a willing consensus about what can be removed...but Blizzard doesn't care. They have the raw data; they can see exactly who is using what, how and when. I like this thread because it gives us a chance to say "if I had the power..." but we don't. This thread may give the devs some ideas, but ultimately our opinions don't matter to anyone but ourselves. And I genuinely do respect everyone's opinion; it's formed due to individual tastes and experiences, which is why no game can ever satisfy everyone.

[Verain]

Those 10 abilities were VERY well done, and because there were fewer that offered more time to spend on both the appearance and balance of each one... as well as more class diversity.

Maybe, but it just seems very limiting.

If Blizzard ever wants to release a demon hunter class they are screwed, because they've given so many of the abilities to warlocks.

Two of their five? They could still do that easily enough. DH is a melee class remember.

Shiv is a perfect example of that 1% ability. It had a purpose way back when... but now it's only there for that rare enrage mechanic which exists... in one scenario I've done (the sha one). We certainly don't use it for the poison.

This is surprising. The shiv poison effect is quite potent with paralytic, and strong with cripple. It's actually quite good with leeching, if you actually have leeching. The mind numbing effect really needs work though. I use shiv quite often in arena. And if you DO land a mind numbing shiv just as they are about to cast a long spell (normally this is when you get faked out on kick), you can really disrupt it.

why put poisons as an extending ability on the bar when seals are stances for paladins? Why does stealth have to be there?

Well, stealth is a stance for some internal reason. But do you think of the poisons as stances? They have durations, are buffs, and you put up two of them at a time.

CC in this game has devolved into a horrendous mess and for me PvP in this game is a joke because of it. PvP, in my mind, should be about perfectly timed interrupts and coordinated burst, not who can out-cc whom.

Yea, that's fair. I like the CC element to gameplay, but I'm pretty much convinced it is wildly overdone. WoW PvP has definitely diminished.

[Deleted]

shiv is used in pvp , it counters tanks spec getting their dps boost and some warrior&druid abilities.

[Deleted]

Instead of prep charges for the ever decreasing affected abilitys. Who uses prep for sprint?

[Warstar]

shiv is used in pvp , it counters tanks spec getting their dps boost and some warrior&druid abilities.

Shiv is awesome for more than the enrage tranq. I like being able to root people with paralytic poison, shiv someone/thing to be super slow with crippling poison and if soloing old stuff sometimes the little boost to leeching poison is nice.

[Coldkil]

Lol @ Verain on steroids (i love you man).

Just responding to your observations at my post: i stated it clearly at the start of the post - i thought about abilities i don't use. And as you can see, it's mostly PvP-related abilities since i don't PvP much. Agree that my pov can be biased by this.

Anyway, you said it itself in a later post:

Just because you can find a situation where an ability is useful 1% of the time doesn't justify its existence.

Pickpocket and Distract are like this. Expose Armor is like this. Shadow Walk and Shroud of Concealment are like this. Stuns and CCs in PvE are like this. I don't want them to be removed, i want them to be useful. Like Expose Armor becoming a new finisher for Combat or whatever.

Merging multiple abilities into one button won't solve the fact we have a really huge toolkit of spells where some of them are very rarely used. We don't need new spells, we need these ones reworked so we use them.

Tbh, cleave to me enters this category. Cleave automagically makes you so better in certain enviroment it's nearly mandatory, while on others is completely useless - that's the reason BF got that treatment.

And about Prep: i know it's a solid point and a good ability for PvP, but being it so strong it make rogues really good when it's up and bad when it's down. I simply think other implementations like charges makes the gameplay more fluid and compelling.

Just my two cents.

[Jaxxsonp]

I think we have a perfect amount of abilities.

If we had to cut one, I guess prep would be it?

[Kulestu]

Crimson Tempest can go away unless they plan on making it useful, otherwise, no. Rogues don't have many extra moves, I use almost all of mine.

[the9tail]

Envenom - it was an interesting idea back in BC with the extra damage based on your dp stack even if it didn't end up worthwhile, but now its just a nature damage evis

Dispatch - this IS backstab... it is the same damn thing we had in cata with the assassination talents, but apparently its worth a new ability? Just let sub use hemo as its main ability like it did from vanilla until cata

You do know what bloat means right? Because those 2 abilities are not bloat. They replace abilities, so they don't add extra buttons.

- - - Updated - - -

1. Make Expose Armor a passive, depending on how many combo points are currently on the target the bigger the effect.
2. Make Pick Pocket a passive, randomly procs on white attacks.
3. Make Disarm a passive, also proccing off white attacks
4. Redirect tied to openners.

[Mazius]

I have all active rogue abilities (except pick lock) binded, some of them - twice - for example 2 different mutilate macro's (one only usable from stealth same time with ToT with long list of possible ToT targets - name, focus frame, mouseover, targetoftarget etc) got different keybinds.
Got room for more keybinds, actively using ctrl alt and shift, using mod: and nomod: helps alot too.
Don't see any problem with keeping current set of abilities.

[Deleted]

Crimson Tempest can go away unless they plan on making it useful, otherwise, no. Rogues don't have many extra moves, I use almost all of mine.

Most boring aoe skill in the game fuck it.

[Terahertz]

Only ability I'd want to see lost is expose armor, or at least changed. Besides that everything is fine IMO.

[Deleted]

I have all active rogue abilities (except pick lock) binded, some of them - twice - for example 2 different mutilate macro's (one only usable from stealth same time with ToT with long list of possible ToT targets - name, focus frame, mouseover, targetoftarget etc) got different keybinds.
Got room for more keybinds, actively using ctrl alt and shift, using mod: and nomod: helps alot too.
Don't see any problem with keeping current set of abilities.

5 differents blind binds yo

[ophion1990]

Envenom - it was an interesting idea back in BC with the extra damage based on your dp stack even if it didn't end up worthwhile, but now its just a nature damage evis

Dispatch - this IS backstab... it is the same damn thing we had in cata with the assassination talents, but apparently its worth a new ability? Just let sub use hemo as its main ability like it did from vanilla until cata

Tricks - once a great ability, but now that threat is a non issue, it is reduced to a really annoying single target dps buff

Shadow walk - extremely annoying to have to hit that.... should be passive considering the ridiculous AEs people have to unstealth us anyway

Prep - a cooldown to reset cooldowns... never been a fan of that mechanic

Envenom is your main finisher as Assa, not really a button bloat ability tbh. I agree on tricks though, just a button to push every 30 seconds to buff someone... Same for Shadow Walk, I really don't see why this had to be added, they could make vanish etc have 2 charges, like alot of spells have these days to remove prep. Not really that much of an issue for me though. They'd need to buff hemo alot for BS to be removed, and I'd preffer an extra combo generator outside of stealth tbh.

Expose Armor is something I'd like to scrap. It could just be built into revealing strike or hemorage (since those 2 specs see most use for ArP). Distract could be removed but it's a pretty fun ability, I'd rather not see it go away. Same for pickpocket and lock picking. They give the class a specific "style". Taking those skills from rogue is like taking away demons from warlocks (the talent doesn't count! ).

Although all in all, rogues are one of the classes who have it pretty good on the keybinds departement. I still have room for fun extra binds, something I really don't have on my druid or even had on my shaman in cata.

[Fiska]

Abilities that are straight out bloat:

Redirect
Personally I feel that having Combo Points on the enemy is denying Rogues their resource a lot of the time (mainly when your target dies), and shifting them over to the Rogue will make Redirect obsolete. If a Glyph is going to give Redirect a 10 second cooldown they should instead just change Combo Points all together instead. Redirect is something you need to be able to do very quickly, thus it takes up a hotkey bind. Bloat.

Preparation
While I don't think Preparation is as bad as Readiness since it doesn't reset the cooldown on dps abilities, it can be removed in favor of charges or nothing at all. I do like using Preparation in clutch moments, but it's a bloaty ability that can be done differently. Since Sprinting or Vanishing is something you usually need to do very quickly and thus takes up hotkey binds, so does Preparation become a requirement for a hotkey bind. Bloat.

Expose Armor
Right now I don't even want to use Expose Armor due to the Energy cost and maintenance of keeping it up. Assuming they'd fix that I'd still rather see Expose Armor applied in a different manner instead of having to take up a button. Any ability you need to use regularly in your dps rotation requires a hotkey bind. But most of the time there's no need to use it and it just sits there unused. Therefor, Expose Armor is bloat.

Shadow Walk
Has so little use, and when you want to use it you're usually in a "oh-shit" situation where you need to pop it fast. Requires a keybind for that reason.

Pick Lock
You should be able to right click on Lock Boxes to lockpick them. Same goes when using the "Will not be traded" window. Pick Lock isn't something that requires a hotkey, but it could be done easier.


Bloaty abilities that could be more interesting:

Dismantle
I barely use this in PvE, and I don't do PvP. I like it for reducing some dmg, but it's not really something I use often. When I want to use it I feel like I need to have it bound to a hotkey, and that adds to the bloat. It really could be more interesting, but if I see it go I probably won't miss it very much.

Tricks of the Trade
Oh boy, my most beloved Rogue ability from WotLK, and now I'm suggesting it as a candidate for removal.. The problem with TotT is that threat has become so easy to acquire and maintain. I actually use TotT on every pull, but how much it's worth I have no idea. The damage part of TotT is uber annoying and should never have seen daylight in the first place. I'd rather see them improve TotT with some additional utility than having it removed tbh. Right now I feel I need to have it bound since I use it so much, but it's not worth much as an ability any more.

Shiv
Interesting ability, but I never actually use it. Since it's an attack you may need to apply quickly to a strategic target you surely want Shiv on a hotkey. Add that I never use it and you have another bloat candidate. If only it was more useful, because it sure is interesting.

Throw
A ranged pull is nice to have, but whenever you want to use it you really need to be quick about it, and that requires a hotkey. Personally I feel they could just remove Throw, but I know I'll miss having a ranged pulling tool.

Symbiosis
Really uninteresting ability to use, if you even can use it. Requires a Druid to actually place Symbiosis on you. And if Symbiosis gave an interesting effect to the Rogue you'd probably want a keybind for it, making it really awfully bloaty since you don't have a Druid around you all the time. Symbiosis is one ability added to a class that forced all the other classes to free up a slot on their hotbar. Awful.

Crimson Tempest
Assassination has to roll Rupture on several mobs, causing Crimson Tempest to become obsolete. It would be more fun if Assassination could actually use Crimson Tempest instead of having to throw Ruptures all around.


Not bloaty abilities:

Distract
Great ability for maneuvering in Stealth. Since you get a new hotbar in Stealth you can easily find room for Distract. I actually find room for it on my hotkeys outside of Stealth too.

Pick Pocket
Cool flavor ability that makes me feel like a Rogue. As with Distract you get a new hotbar in Stealth which leaves room for Pick Pocket. And since Pick Pocket has no impact on combat people who really can't find room for it just simply don't need to use it.

Shroud of Concealment
Almost never used and there's plenty of time to click it with your mouse whenever you want to use it.

Dispatch and Envenom
It doesn't matter if Dispatch and Envenom are copies of Backstab and Eviscerate. If you have Dispatch and Envenom then you don't have Backstab and Eviscerate, thus you aren't using up more hotkeys.

[Canderous1]

i agree completely with the post above me except that its missing revealing strike. revealing strike should just be baseline, not yet another timer to watch. there is nothing interesting or engaging about using revealing strike, all you are doing is replacing the occasional sinister strike with a revealing strike. make it go away.

[Verain]

[B]Abilities that are straight out bloat:

Redirect
Preparation
Expose Armor
Shadow Walk

Redirect is a cool way to manipulate combo points. If we are keeping combo points, we should keep it. Note that it is not rotational, and it is novel.
Prep is really super strong and cool. I like the skill associated with it.
Expose Armor is perfect, if the weakened armor debuff is sitting around. Cheap combo points, apply three stacks instantly... I dunno. It seems good to me.
Shadow Walk is something we'll just probably disagree on. I really like it because it is a metastealth button in PvP. I like outplaying others with it.

Pick Lock
You should be able to right click on Lock Boxes to lockpick them. Same goes when using the "Will not be traded" window. Pick Lock isn't something that requires a hotkey, but it could be done easier.

So you basically want Pick Lock to be passive. That's fine, its presence as a button isn't that interesting. Much like detect traps became passive, and at some point I didn't have to press 'disarm trap' anymore either. These are just rogue abilities that work for free now.

But, bear with me a moment- what if Pick Lock required you to solve a randomly generated puzzle? Maybe one that actually takes a bit of time to solve. I bet you'd get a tip for picking a lock! Of course, you'd have to fix the smithing and engineering things to not just be better than the rogue one.

[xezar]

-snip for length-

I agree with pretty much everything here actually, though you need Throw since it becomes Shuriken Toss if you ever need to take it. I guess they could do something with it, but eh...it's basically a button you spam for ranged auto-attack like behavior. I disagree with Prep a bit, granted since several things got removed form it it's not as good anymore, but still, a button you hit every 5 min if you need it, I'd prefer to have it buried in the spell book as "bloat" over not having it at all. I guess charges can work like with Roll on monks, but eh...it'd be odd getting used to it.

I'm not super knowledgeable about Mut AoE, but I just pretty much spam FoK/CT on trash, why waste it on Rupture? It's basically meant to be an AoE finisher, even if it's so weak for the other 2 that Combat doesn't bother (and uses BF anyways) and Sub...well no one plays Sub anyways. Perhaps it needs a damage buff or something.

But yeah, stuff like Expose Armor, just bake it into Mutilate, Sinister Strike, or Backstab/Hemo, there's no reason to keep it as a separate attack, hell if I'm out trying to kill an elite mob I don't even bother using it since that means having to dig it out of the spell book, remembering to keep track of the debuff, etc etc. Instead if it's just baked into your primary attack (like how WW Monk self-damage buff is baked into Tiger Palm), less maintenance and worry about it. I mean, other classes that get it use it as part of their rotation don't they?

[Kael]

I'm not super knowledgeable about Mut AoE, but I just pretty much spam FoK/CT on trash, why waste it on Rupture? It's basically meant to be an AoE finisher, even if it's so weak for the other 2 that Combat doesn't bother (and uses BF anyways) and Sub...well no one plays Sub anyways. Perhaps it needs a damage buff or something.

Rupture's energy return for more FoK adds more AoE damage than hitting CT, for mut. Sadness.

On the subject of the bloat question - in response to the above - abilities you use "not that often" you don't REALLY need a convenient bind for, do you? Do you have a special bind for shadow walk in PvE? Shiv, across general content? They have a place, and that place isn't really covered by something else, nor do we have SO MANY BUTTONS that it's problematic and they need to combine existing abilities (imo).

Expose Armor is 100% useless if you have arpen covered by someone else. Expose armor is *awesome* if no one else is covering it. Is it still bloat?

I disagree with Redirect, as well - your logic is sound, but it's not bloat; it just shouldn't have a reason to exist anymore. Abilities that work around outdated mechanics aren't bloat - they're absolutely needed until outdated mechanics are changed.

Pick lock being there is definitely a waste though! I have a bar for my tradeskills, macros... and pick lock. Completely unimportant.