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  1. #541
    We do it slightly differently.

    We have a roster of more than 10 people and someone that gets sat one week will definitely be included the next. This way the person being sat for a lockout doesn't have to log in and sit waiting for a call-up, they are also free to pug that week should they wish. We haven't come across a fight we can't kill even if our comp is less than desirable for an encounter.

    It's slightly different but it works for us.

  2. #542
    Deleted
    @ Ralbo: Though I agree with your definitions and the fact that terms as bad, casual, elitist etc. are being used non stop and often without a context, I think that the people who tend to discuss on MMO are pretty clear to what "Bad" and "Elitist" is. We've had long ass threads discussing this very topic - arguing about the definition of good and bad and we don't agree.

    But most of the people who say that the content is tuned too hard, also think that those players clearing Heroics and arguing against them here on MMO are elitist. While the so called elitists think that those who can't defeat the Normal encounters are bad. So the context you're asking for, well many of us already know in what context the opposition is referring to.

    Don't know if that makes sense, but my point is, that this debate has been a main topic for a long time and as such, we tend to know where those who often post stand.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Why do you think, that being benched for a fight or rotated out for a fight makes a person "second rank" per definition? Nobody said anything about that. That's where loot and setup comes to play. I've yet to have a raid night where NOBODY offered to step out, cause everyone knows that with 13 raiders in the roster, 3 people have to sit out on every fight. And as long it's not the same 3 people every time, that's totally acceptable. Over the course of a month, people end up having killed the same amount of bosses and we don't have to cancel raids.
    I did say that my views were what I've seen; not having been in very many hardcore guilds, most "Normal" guilds don't bench/rotate or have standbys, which was kind of the overall point. A guild like yours that clears 13/13H is by definition "serious" and rotates people in and out, I'm guessing, based on fight viability and who needs what drops. A guild like mine, that just barely got 12/12N, has 10 hopefully-reliable people and if someone is out or can't make it, we hit Trade for a pug and accept the fact it's probably going to be a "light" raid night instead of what we normally do, because we have nothing to offer standbys and it will annoy longtime raiders if we ask them to sit out on a bunch of bosses because they don't need any gear.

    Note that I do not think my view is in any way, shape or form "better", in fact I'm pretty sure it's worse. However, I'd wager that most guilds operate closer to my experiences than yours, and I certainly see Injin's point that Flex is going to be a blow to the Normal casual guilds who tend to not have standbys, because Flex is going to be the "Take everyone and not hurt anyone's feelings" mode, even if it's lower.

  4. #544
    Quote Originally Posted by Zhulrak View Post
    Why would it make sense to nerf something that is difficult because you aren't good enough to complete it? Believe it or not, there are people that like going up against consistently challenging bosses.
    Hit the nail right on the head
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  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by lakers01 View Post
    And pet battles, BGs, arena, brawlers guild, transmog, any farming you might need, rares, rep grinds, trolling trade. Honestly there has neve been more to do in wow.
    The issue was never one of "things to do" it was "meaningful things that advance your character" because let's not beat around the bush, that's the main goal of any RPG game, MMO or tabletop or otherwise: To increase your power. How many of those things increase one's power? Arena is out of most casual players. Rep grinds reward some gear, usually subpar. BGs can reward gear and many find them fun. None of the others really reward any meaningful advancement.

  6. #546
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    I did say that my views were what I've seen; not having been in very many hardcore guilds, most "Normal" guilds don't bench/rotate or have standbys, which was kind of the overall point. A guild like yours that clears 13/13H is by definition "serious" and rotates people in and out, I'm guessing, based on fight viability and who needs what drops. A guild like mine, that just barely got 12/12N, has 10 hopefully-reliable people and if someone is out or can't make it, we hit Trade for a pug and accept the fact it's probably going to be a "light" raid night instead of what we normally do, because we have nothing to offer standbys and it will annoy longtime raiders if we ask them to sit out on a bunch of bosses because they don't need any gear.

    Note that I do not think my view is in any way, shape or form "better", in fact I'm pretty sure it's worse. However, I'd wager that most guilds operate closer to my experiences than yours, and I certainly see Injin's point that Flex is going to be a blow to the Normal casual guilds who tend to not have standbys, because Flex is going to be the "Take everyone and not hurt anyone's feelings" mode, even if it's lower.

    I see Injin's point as well and as I said in a previous post, he might end up being right about Normal guilds taking the blow. About how your guild which I think it's fair to say represent a Normal mode casual guild does, is part of the issue. Cause I just don't understand, why Joe would be overly upset about sitting out on 2/12 bosses he doesn't need loot from, so that Bill doesn't have to sit out on 12/12 bosses. That just doesn't make sense in my world and that's in no way team spirit.

    But you keep using the word "Standby" and if that's how you (Normal/casual guilds) chose to go about your roster, then I certainly start to understand, why casual guilds are having a hard time keeping their raiders. Cause if I were to play in a casual guild, I'd sure as hell not put up with having to be "standby".

    Out of curiosity, can I ask, why you don't just rotate? I mean it can't be all that fun having to pug random people from trade or cancelling the raid, just cause some of your raiders won't take the bench for one or two bosses?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    It isn't a question of being pissed off really.

    It's simply a question of incentives. 11th/12th/13th raider in your guild can just go raid with someone else with no way of stopping them. So he will. Give it a few weeks and he'll be off to whoever has been inviting him most regularly.

    yes it's not very good team play, but neither is not taking everyone to a flexi raid first. Aka you scratch my back i'll scratch yours, or you treat me like i'm replacable, i'll treat you like you are replacable.

    - - - Updated - - -



    First month of SoO? The total number of raiders online who want don't want to go will be very low, I think.

    Again Injin, you assume (and you might be right), that all Normal mode guilds will threat their 11th, 12th, 13th player as a standby who will sit out an entire night. Rather than all 13 players rotate in and out on a fair basis. If you for one moment go with what I say, do you then think that people will be jumping ship the first chance they get? Cause unless you have no friends in the guild and only care for "progression" in a casual guild, then I kinda think you're over the mark here.

    Again, if we go by your assumption that most Normal mode guilds will always just have standby players sit out an entire night, then yes you are probably right. But if we go by my assumption and believe that guild leaders have just a bit brain, then they will rotate everyone on a fair basis and nobody should feel left out.

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Out of curiosity, can I ask, why you don't just rotate? I mean it can't be all that fun having to pug random people from trade or cancelling the raid, just cause some of your raiders won't take the bench for one or two bosses?
    We in particular don't rotate because we don't have the people; we either have our core 10, some people that aren't always on (friends/ex raiders who are casual now) or just people who aren't geared enough (fresh 90s, etc.). I've wanted to press the issue of recruiting rotational people, but the idea seems like a foreign concept to the other officers perhaps due to bad past experiences; as I previously said I recall a hunter from a prior guild being kicked due to volunteering to be rotated out for fights where he didn't need any loot, but expecting/demanding to be there for bosses he needed loot from.

    Honestly I can't answer that question because I've been rotated out when I was mainspec DPS (including a guild's first Nefarian kill in T11 ), and yeah it sucked but I was okay with it after a while, but I think there's a fine line between everyone knowing "It's okay to sit out for a boss if you don't need anything" compared to the perception that if you're sat, it's because you're being replaced or because you screwed up. Our guild, though not my decision as I've only recently been an officer, has usually given the perception that if you were asked to sit out for a fight it was because you were underperforming and we didn't want to wipe on a "farm" boss, not because you didn't need anything and someone else did, and chances are you weren't coming back in the raid that night (or for the rest of the week). So that might be why I have such a bad view of rotation/standby/bench, because in my guild it means "We're bringing in someone better than you to kill this boss". I also think it's the perception that you need to be there for every boss because you're a "core raider", either for a drop that might be useful or just the VP.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-09-04 at 05:34 PM.

  8. #548
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    We in particular don't rotate because we don't have the people; we either have our core 10, some people that aren't always on (friends/ex raiders who are casual now) or just people who aren't geared enough (fresh 90s, etc.). I've wanted to press the issue of recruiting rotational people, but the idea seems like a foreign concept to the other officers perhaps due to bad past experiences; as I previously said I recall a hunter from a prior guild being kicked due to volunteering to be rotated out for fights where he didn't need any loot, but expecting/demanding to be there for bosses he needed loot from.

    Honestly I can't answer that question because I've been rotated out when I was mainspec DPS (including a guild's first Nefarian kill in T11 ), and yeah it sucked but I was okay with it after a while, but I think there's a fine line between everyone knowing "It's okay to sit out for a boss if you don't need anything" compared to the perception that if you're sat, it's because you're being replaced or because you screwed up. Our guild, though not my decision as I've only recently been an officer, has usually given the perception that if you were asked to sit out for a fight it was because you were underperforming and we didn't want to wipe on a "farm" boss, not because you didn't need anything and someone else did, and chances are you weren't coming back in the raid that night (or for the rest of the week). So that might be why I have such a bad view of rotation/standby/bench, because in my guild it means "We're bringing in someone better than you to kill this boss". I also think it's the perception that you need to be there for every boss because you're a "core raider", either for a drop that might be useful or just the VP.
    Yeah okay, I get that. I mean, my guild does that as well. If someone, for whatever the reason, is playing like shit and preventing us from getting a kill, we'll swap that person out for someone else. And I do get, that there's a big difference between casual guilds and heroic guilds. But to me it sounds a bit like your leadership (leadership in general) needs to make some things clear to their guildies. I mean, we have it written down in our guild "rules"/guidelines/info how we do things. That way people know this, when they apply and therefore won't complain when we rotate them out - regardless of the reason.

    But imagine that your guild did have some clear guide lines on how you rotate, do you then think people would get all that upset? Or do you think they would suck it up, when it was their turn to sit out and then be happy, that you don't have to cancel raids? I mean, people can't have it both ways.

  9. #549
    Why are people so upset that people who aren't them have more play options?

  10. #550
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    But imagine that your guild did have some clear guide lines on how you rotate, do you then think people would get all that upset? Or do you think they would suck it up, when it was their turn to sit out and then be happy, that you don't have to cancel raids? I mean, people can't have it both ways.
    Honestly I don't know. I don't think the leadership would even entertain the idea, to be honest. If we did it and treated people equal as far as rotating, I think it could work, but there are always exceptions (e.g. we only have two tanks, so we are always going to be there and never rotate, and if one of us isn't there it's pretty much no raid. Same pretty much for our healers outside of one going DPS for a 2-heal fight) so what it would really boil down to is "DPS can/will be rotated in on an as-needed basis" which I'm sure wouldn't sit well with people.

    That said though I almost 100% agree with you that we SHOULD have rotating people. For instance, one of our main healers is on vacation until the end of September. We have nobody to replace him, because we don't have any other healers that are available and/or because of gear. So we are pretty much DOA until around October to even attempt Normal modes as we won't have a key person. If we had a rotating group of raiders, we could bring someone else in to try Normal, which might annoy that healer since he wasn't there for any kills/loot, but we would be able to raid instead of likely not being able to do anything.
    Last edited by Nobleshield; 2013-09-04 at 07:17 PM.

  11. #551
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post

    Again Injin, you assume (and you might be right), that all Normal mode guilds will threat their 11th, 12th, 13th player as a standby who will sit out an entire night. Rather than all 13 players rotate in and out on a fair basis. If you for one moment go with what I say, do you then think that people will be jumping ship the first chance they get? Cause unless you have no friends in the guild and only care for "progression" in a casual guild, then I kinda think you're over the mark here.
    I don't assume that at all - what i assume is that a player who is benched can go into and out of a flexi raid at will with no repurcussions. "Got benched for a boss? Cool join our flexi meantime mate."

    I don't think you are appreciating how awesome flexi is. People can join and leave a flexi run at will, with no getting saved or anything.
    Again, if we go by your assumption that most Normal mode guilds will always just have standby players sit out an entire night, then yes you are probably right. But if we go by my assumption and believe that guild leaders have just a bit brain, then they will rotate everyone on a fair basis and nobody should feel left out.
    When you are being rotated you can go flexi with no barriers.

  12. #552
    Quote Originally Posted by Injin View Post
    I don't think you are appreciating how awesome flexi is. People can join and leave a flexi run at will, with no getting saved or anything.
    Indeed, the no lockout part is awesome and will be perfect for pugging. Won't have to pick and choose what group you join, nor will raid leaders have to be as picky, not to mention it's split into bite-sized wings that even people with just 2 hours to allot can do. (I've noticed random pugs start leaving after that amount of time in ToT)

  13. #553
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I think the problem this expansion with the casual engagement is that they overwhelmed the casuals.
    They systematically reduced the rate of resource acquisition. The VP/hour rate went down from Cataclysm. JP was made nearly worthless. In 5.2, VP was made worthless without raid rep grinding. None of that is casual-friendly.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
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    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  14. #554
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    The increased options are largely a myth after a certain ilvl. Basically it's lfr and raiding and that's it.
    Not true. It became insanely easy to get rep. So much so that by the time you hit 90, as long as you just started a cpl of questlines you were honored or near to it. Run a cpl of heroic dungeons and bam!! Exhalted. I have a toon sitting at 491 IL and I haven't even tried to gear him up. Did a cpl of LFR's but most of his gear came from VP gear, and the Barrens drops, as well as the world bosses. I'm reasonably certain that if I had put in some effort, his IL would be closer to 500+ which is past ready for raiding relevant content.

  15. #555
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    Yeah okay, I get that. I mean, my guild does that as well. If someone, for whatever the reason, is playing like shit and preventing us from getting a kill, we'll swap that person out for someone else. And I do get, that there's a big difference between casual guilds and heroic guilds. But to me it sounds a bit like your leadership (leadership in general) needs to make some things clear to their guildies. I mean, we have it written down in our guild "rules"/guidelines/info how we do things. That way people know this, when they apply and therefore won't complain when we rotate them out - regardless of the reason.

    But imagine that your guild did have some clear guide lines on how you rotate, do you then think people would get all that upset? Or do you think they would suck it up, when it was their turn to sit out and then be happy, that you don't have to cancel raids? I mean, people can't have it both ways.
    Allow me to jump in for a sec... what I think you're missing is that more casual guilds attract different people than heroic guilds. Heroic guilds have a rep on their servers and by and large the people who seriously apply to them know what they're getting into with things like standby, DKP, etc. They will put up with that because the reward is being part of a server first guild or at least a high end, heroic guild. That might mean prestige to a player or just that they're part of a team playing at a high level.

    In contrast, a more laid back guild attracts people who aren't as into that stuff and so might not take to being rotated in and out in the same manner. They just want to show up a couple of nights a week and raid with decent players, not worry about standby, DKP, who need what loot from which boss, etc. Also, trying to rotate adds complexity, overhead and potential drama which the RL and officers need to deal with.

    Now, imagine you're a casual 10 man raid. You want to progress some, but you'll be satisfied if you clear normals in the current tier. You can define a rotation scheme, publicize the rules, get people to buy in, deal with some people who don't like it and leave by recruiting, etc.... OR you can decide you're not all that invested in whatever prestige comes with clearing normals, say "fuck it" and raid flex. If 13 people want to raid, great, you raid with 13. If the next night only 11 show, no problem. Same if 15 show. Awesome, let's all raid. None of the overhead, none of the drama. Hell, since loot is personal like LFR there's not even a need for DKP schemes.

    Flex will kill normal mode guilds. Some normal mode guilds will step it up and become the entry tier of heroic raids... but the guilds who pretty much only raid normals? In 6.x those will be a tiny minority and most organized non-heroic raids will be flex.
    Last edited by clevin; 2013-09-04 at 11:39 PM.

  16. #556
    The Insane Glorious Leader's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Manataurus View Post
    Not true. It became insanely easy to get rep. So much so that by the time you hit 90, as long as you just started a cpl of questlines you were honored or near to it. Run a cpl of heroic dungeons and bam!! Exhalted. I have a toon sitting at 491 IL and I haven't even tried to gear him up. Did a cpl of LFR's but most of his gear came from VP gear, and the Barrens drops, as well as the world bosses. I'm reasonably certain that if I had put in some effort, his IL would be closer to 500+ which is past ready for raiding relevant content.
    In 5.2 you got rep from RAIDS so yes your back to raiding. The gear you could acquire from the daily 5.0 BS was A. Underilvl and B. A massive time consuming grind even with the reduction. Also was not very casual friendly if you didn't log on for a day or two. It was tonnes of hours spent and invested for little to no gain. It was not a serious alternative to raiding. It was far more time consuming then the rate you could get gear at in cataclysm. What I said was true, after a certain ilvl basically all that's left is raiding. In cataclysm this was basically only at the heroic raid lvl because well I could buy normal raid lvl gear relatively easily (re:casual friendly) which provided an alternative to raiding for many. Actually through a good portion of cataclysm (and wrath) I could even buy TIER sets. The game SORELY needs an alternative.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobleshield View Post
    The issue was never one of "things to do" it was "meaningful things that advance your character" because let's not beat around the bush, that's the main goal of any RPG game, MMO or tabletop or otherwise: To increase your power. How many of those things increase one's power? Arena is out of most casual players. Rep grinds reward some gear, usually subpar. BGs can reward gear and many find them fun. None of the others really reward any meaningful advancement.
    This is basically the larger point. An alternative is needed to raiding that rewards as well as raiding or almost as well. The game sorely lacking in this department. It did have alternatives that were very casual friendly in the past. Those all went out the window in mists to force casual players into a very uncasual activity. Raiding at any level.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-04 at 11:41 PM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  17. #557
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    They systematically reduced the rate of resource acquisition. The VP/hour rate went down from Cataclysm. JP was made nearly worthless. In 5.2, VP was made worthless without raid rep grinding. None of that is casual-friendly.
    Heroic Scenarios are faster Valor gain than Hour of Twilight dungeons were.

  18. #558
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeverStop View Post
    Heroic Scenarios are faster Valor gain than Hour of Twilight dungeons were.
    They also generally do not award better gear at the same time while your doing them. Also the currency itself is worth far less in terms of player power. Acquiring a near useless currency MARGINALLY faster is still not casual friendly.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

  19. #559
    Quote Originally Posted by Glorious Leader View Post
    They also generally do not award better gear at the same time while your doing them. Also the currency itself is worth far less in terms of player power. Acquiring a near useless currency MARGINALLY faster is still not casual friendly.
    Previous tier normal gear was 496, so they actually award better things if you win. They do give it far less frequently, but it's actually better than it has been in the previous expansions, where catchup dungeons gave 10man normal last tier equivalent gear.
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  20. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluorescent0 View Post
    Previous tier normal gear was 496, so they actually award better things if you win. They do give it far less frequently, but it's actually better than it has been in the previous expansions.
    No it's not. Not in terms of catch up and not in terms of overall player progression. Far less frequently is a clever euphemism for they never pay out and it's all subject to rng. Look it just cant' be. If it was as good as before PEOPLE WOULD STOP DOING RAIDS IN FAVOR OF IT. That's what happened in cataclysm. It's not happening in mists because the alternatives (including the near god damn worhtless heroic scenarios) DON'T PAY OUT AS GOOD. It's designed NOT TO be as good as it was in cataclysm. According to the developers people would just do the content that was effecient but not fun i.e NOT RAID. Well if it was as good or better than the previous expansions that same behavior would occur and people would skip raids. People are not skipping raids.

    Hell even in wrath I had toons that I just never raided on and STILL had raid equivalent actually raid equal gear. I had tier pieces. We don't even have the VENDOR selling the damn gear next patch. How anyone in their right fuckimg mind can say it's better or even equal when they've clearly said it's not designed to be as good as before is insane.
    Last edited by Glorious Leader; 2013-09-05 at 12:18 AM.
    The hammer comes down:
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    Normal should be reduced in difficulty. Heroic should be reduced in difficulty.
    And the tiny fraction for whom heroic raids are currently well tuned? Too bad,so sad! With the arterial bleed of subs the fastest it's ever been, the vanity development that gives you guys your own content is no longer supportable.

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