LFR -> Flex -> Normal -> Heroic: Why?

[Fluorescent0]

It doesn't matter, it simple meant the standard was just raid. PERIOD. TBC or before that. According to you the naming conventions are meaningless except when they aren't when it's convenient for your argument. As for citations I would suggest you ahven't given a single one and the mechanics you listed in ToC are all far simpler to their incarnations we see today where they are different and often piled on top of another entire pile of other mechanics. raiding is simple more complicated today then ever and that includes 25 man and 10 man (which you simple just can't dismiss because well hey people were doing those in wotlk) then it's even been. PERIOD. I'm done arguing about this because your so far god damn in denial it doesn't fucking matter.

I still stand by my point that they are just naming conventions, it's only that if you want compare what Blizzard defines normal today to the past, you gotta compare it to what Blizzard defined normal in the past. Since, like you just said, before ToC there were only raids, there's not a definition of the standard developers set before the introduction of that raid and therefore a safe comparison can not be made. And of course you can ignore 10man in wotlk, when people asked for 10 and 25mans to be equal they implicitly agreed for either 25man becoming easier (which hasn't been the case) or 10man becoming harder (which has actually been the case). Therefore, comparison between 10man normals today and back then is unfair because 10mans are no longer half a tier behind and therefore are tuned differently. Heck, raiding is indeed difficult as it is today but I see the difficulty rampup starting around Ulduar and going throughout the last two expansions. Do remember that bosses such as Yogg Saron basically brought in a new generation of bosses where coordination and high personal responsability, along with being able to perform optimally with your class, started becoming a necessity for heroic modes and that has pushed developers to introduce some of those things in heroic modes. Again, indifferent to the comparison with normal because heck, it wasn't named before that.

RNG is a chore. I find NOTHING interesting (and I don't know a single fucking soul who does) about random dice roll that goes on behind the screen especially when the loot tables are so god damn bloated and all the alternatives to aquiring loot outside of rng so god damn shitty. I find nothing interesting in constantly loosing the dice roll. To me that just reeks of lazy design and poor gameplay. RPGS are not rng dependant either but the developers seem to think this is the case.

Pretty must all RPGs are RNG dependant actually. Drops, upgrade fails, random stat rolls, some even have crafting success. Heck, basic games from which the RPG genre was born have a constant roll of the dice for whatever action you do. I really can't see where you're coming from when you state that RPGs don't have any RNG except this game.

Yes really the heroic scenario gear is piss poor. It's not even tier pieces for gods sake or even normal raid worthy. It's SHIT compared to what you could get out of regular dungeons in the past.

Do remember that from Cataclysm onwards you have never been able to buy tier pieces without raiding. They started requiring tokens in cataclysm, so you didn't have those back then. And of course it isn't normal raid worthy, it's supposed to be catchup gear which is actually higher than it has been before (normal raid previous tier). Spending valor makes it above normal raid worthy, which is also more than what could be said for the past. You keep saying it's shit but the numbers prove quite the opposite.

I don't care what you call the game. I mean they got rid of core RPG features (deterministic progression is a core rpg feature btw) but still claim it's an MMORPG. So the developers can and do remove central parts of the game all the time. Hell the game is LESS mmo now than ever and people play it solo every day without even seeing other folks. I'm not asking for them abandon the multiplayer model just not to cater to raiding. You don't need to have massive organized raids. You can still keep the massive without it, the massive could reflect the world or whatever. Nor do I need to think you need to keep the genre. That's just something your stuck on for no reason as far as I can tell. WoW is and always been less mmo and their is ZERO POINT ZERO reason to stick to the title mmo and think it means a fucking thing unless your trying to be ridiculous and argue for nothing.

No, deterministic progression is not a core feature, as explained above. Heck, go look at Dungeons and Dragons rules, where you can get killed because you roll too low. And again, features are not bound to a genre, they're just how the genre happened to be developing. Its definition is what can not be changed, and they haven't, because as explained above it's still a game where you play a character which isn't you in a fantasy world (RPG) with a shitload of other people (massive multiplayer) over the internet (online). Everything else is accessory and it's their decision what to make with it.

I'm done arguing this. The developers are giving you FAR LESS CHARACTER progression outside of the raid then they did in the past and this has made it ridiculously casual unfriendly. It's not just as fast nor is it as as good because if it was WED BE BACK IN CATACLYSM AND PEOPLE WOULD BE SKIPPING RAIDS IN FAVOR OF IT You are absolutely accepting less than you had before and it's PRECISELY to give other payers more to do and give more focus to raids. It's practically Orwellian to say you aren't accepting less. You can't even get the same shit NORMAL RAIDERS do anymore. It's fucking terrible. ANd while they pay lip service to alternatives the reality is their isn't any. You REFUSE to see anything outside of your narrow perspective and would rather argue nomenclature. Old thinking is what your all about and apparently so are the developers. Keep thinking old and the game will still feel old and people will continue to leave.

You keep saying it's less yet when people tell you that itemlevels are higher to account for the acquisition rate to be slower you go "lalalala no they're shit no lie lol". Heck, for some classes heroic scenario gear is better than a few normal mode pieces because of itemization and you're complaining that you aren't getting enough progression outside of raiding. You do get as much as before, it just seems that you're either not casual (therefore the one heroic scenario a day is too few for you) or that you just can't see it.

[Deleted]

They all should share same lockout.

[MoanaLisa]

They all should share same lockout.

So no pugging or grouping up with friends on non-raid nights? No thanks.

[judgementofantonidas]

You're talking about that; I'm talking about the dude who suggested that the roster have an extra 30% of players who are all expected to be available on every raid night, just so if there's a no-show, the raid can go on.

And I'm saying that it's bullshit if he thinks that will actually happen.

one man's bullshit is another man's successful raid team.

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Bullshit. We got to 8/12HC with 10 players, then we recruited an 11th.

I'm so tired of people stating their opinion as a certainty and being completely wrong. Not everybody is like you, not everybodies circumstances are yours.

why? thats exactly what you just did.

[Fluorescent0]

why? thats exactly what you just did.

It takes logical reasoning to say something is correct. It only takes one false example to prove it's false. Simple logic rules, really.

[Deleted]

Before I rant --- I love the idea of flex - I think it should be implemented for all difficulty levels.

I hate having multiple difficulty levels. Does anybody seriously enjoy killing the same damn boss 100+ times per tier?

Solution: One difficulty (heroic) with flex. Every month, any bosses that have been killed by at least 100 different guilds take a 10% nerf. Top end guilds can still push for rankings without worry, and the casuals can still see all content before next tier, and EVERYBODY gets excited when they kill a boss (if anybody even remembers that feeling)....

And who cares about perfectly balancing flex --- let the top end guilds play around with the numbers & compositions themselves.

Heroic will never be flex. There is competition in heroic raiding, that requires a rigid set of rules - something flexibility will never be able to offer.

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If ur an Heroic raider why would u do LFR and Flex?? (except maybe for alts)

What he said. The heroic raiders will only do flex for the meta achievments as well as possible some trinket that might be good for progress. Nothing else.

[Deleted]

If ur an Heroic raider why would u do LFR and Flex?? (except maybe for alts)

Yeah, for gearing alts, but also for helping catch up in things such as the legendary quest if you miss bosses, as usually one player won't be in for every boss during both progression and farm as, if SoO is anything like ToT, certain classes will be favoured for certain fights.

[Fluorescent0]

Yeah, for gearing alts, but also for helping catch up in things such as the legendary quest if you miss bosses, as usually one player won't be in for every boss during both progression and farm as, if SoO is anything like ToT, certain classes will be favoured for certain fights.

There's no need to do legendary quests in SoO. You will be able to get your cloak on day one without stepping foot in a raid.

[Toc]

The reason I see many casuals state they like LFR is because they don't have the time/schedule to commit to a raiding guild. I 100% understand this and agree.

Then I watch some "progression" raiders come back and say, "If you can't commit to raiding then you shouldn't be raiding."

Then I watch these same people who claim to be "progression" raiders whine that they have to commit more time to running LFR and now flex to min/max their characters.

This makes me giggle. Until the people of this game realize that they way they play is not the one and only way these threads will never stop.

[Deleted]

There's no need to do legendary quests in SoO. You will be able to get your cloak on day one without stepping foot in a raid.

I know. It was just a reference as to why you would previously need to do LFR, even as a heroic raider.

[Normie]

I know. It was just a reference as to why you would previously need to do LFR, even as a heroic raider.

Well, imagine if all raids had the same lockout. Then heroic raiders would be forced to do clean-up normals and/or pugs to get all their legendary stone-type things. And while running LFR might be irritating, it would be way worse to have to do it in normal for most guild members.

Imagine if LFR didn't drop legendary stone-type things. Same situation.

Most raiders realize that LFR is a time-saving convenience when hunting legendary stone-type things and horribly OP trinkets. A few don't think it through and so they bitch about being "forced" to do LFR when in fact if LFR wasn't there, their lives would suck more.

[Normie]

You think we don't already?

Most raids don't farm the entire leftover normal bosses, and if they do, not with the same members.

[Fluorescent0]

Most raids don't farm the entire leftover normal bosses, and if they do, not with the same members.

Most raids do clean it. Heck, gear is the strongest nerf an encounter gets during the course of an entire patch cycle, nobody serious enough to do heroics ignores that fact and punishes himself by not clearing normals.

[kamuimac]

The reason I see many casuals state they like LFR is because they don't have the time/schedule to commit to a raiding guild. I 100% understand this and agree.

Then I watch some "progression" raiders come back and say, "If you can't commit to raiding then you shouldn't be raiding."

Then I watch these same people who claim to be "progression" raiders whine that they have to commit more time to running LFR and now flex to min/max their characters.

This makes me giggle. Until the people of this game realize that they way they play is not the one and only way these threads will never stop.

well its really simple - all people some kind of stubborn idiots with their own views of how world works and since people are so stubborn they will never acknowlege other people opinions -_- thats the beauty of internet - eveyrone is right and at the same time everyone is mistaken cause they try to force their own opinions on other people which will never work -_-