What single factor most contributed to the decline of Wow PVP?

[Siddown]

While I don't believe it was the most contributing factor, but Esports factor was one.

In season 1 some of the people we were raiding with in Vanilla achieved rank 1, but didn't get an invite to the regional tournaments. It was some legal policy with their nationality that Blizzard didn't care to resolve in any way. None of them sticked for season 2. While the example might be extreme I guess more people felt like Blizzard was ruining the Esports factor over and over.

It was also TBC, not Vanilla

These were Canadian players (and possibly a few players in a few states, Vermont comes to mind as one) and the reason they didn't go was due to Consumer laws in those places. Sure Blizzard could have figured out something, but the number of players affected by that were about a dozen. WoW went on to record popularity two expansions later, and if you go by this forum, the best PvP was still an expansion away (WotLK minus Season 5).

So that particular case doesn't really hold as even a partial cause of the downfall of WoW PvP.

[Kreeshak]

It was also TBC, not Vanilla

These were Canadian players (and possibly a few players in a few states, Vermont comes to mind as one) and the reason they didn't go was due to Consumer laws in those places. Sure Blizzard could have figured out something, but the number of players affected by that were about a dozen. WoW went on to record popularity two expansions later, and if you go by this forum, the best PvP was still an expansion away (WotLK minus Season 5).

So that particular case doesn't really hold as even a partial cause of the downfall of WoW PvP.

First of all I didn't say it wasn't TBC - I said I know the guys from vanilla, but season 1 was TBC.

I already said the example was extreme. It was there to suggest that Blizzard didn't care about PVP as esport. I am sure more people have more arguments examples to make.

Also I did say it wasn't the most contributing factor.

[meathead]

I missed this thread, and while all the *~Juicy~* discussion is already over, I'll contribute because I am smarter and better than everyone else:

The absolute biggest factor that ruined PvP (as well as has hurt the game in general) is two big, fat, shit-eating words: STAT INFLATION

Almost everything wrong with PvP is traced directly back to the stats becoming grossly over-inflated. Heals being too powerful, nukes being too powerful, CC being rampant, big changes like "The Crowd Chose You" and the heal debuff. There's almost not a single problem PvP has that ISN'T because of stat inflation (outside your typical, everyday terrible balancing choices, of course)

It's been like this since WotLK. That's when healers started getting FAR too powerful and when Resilience began to block a little -too- much damage, not to mention the stat inflation of gear in general meant that PvP started to become more and more gear-based rather than, well, you know SKILL-based. I remember back in Vanilla, when a level 55 could beat a level 60 (and I understand this isn't the strongest of examples because vanilla had it's fair share of terrible PvP problems, but bear with me), because a 5 level difference didn't mean 70k health and 2k attack power or whatever it's become in MoP.

I was HUGE on Arenas and PvPing in TBC, and to me, TBC had it down perfect. Fights were short, healers were niche and could only burst heal you up once before OOMing and having to either kite away to drink or just die, and while the burst was high, it was all about controlling your opponent and countering whatever strategy/abilities they were trying to use.

That's not to say TBC was perfect or anything, but it had it down as good as WoW could possibly be. People whining and saying "ohhhh but MAGES could sometimes two-shot some classes if they got lucky!!!!" are just tools who probably didn't even play during TBC, let alone PvP in it, and just read about the fabled mage two-shot on some backwater forum somewhere (probably this one!) and then began cavorting around all over the place, spewing their baseless critiques of a PvP system they were never apart of; but I digress.

TBC introduced lots of stuff like Diminishing Returns (even if stuff like double/triple blind comps existed for awhile before Blind got slapped on DR, too) and Resilience, and these were good, NATURAL changes that helped the game's PvP go into a legitimate direction that made sense.

These days Blizzard is just flailing around, realizing "Holy shit we fucked up!" and is desperately trying to correct their mistakes by implementing all these weird things like the Battle Fatigue and Crowd buffs/debuffs that don't really fix the real problem- nor do they even remedy the symptoms very much.

When I hit 80 in WotLK, I couldn't wait to try out the PvP. I dueled some Moonkin who looked like he had also just hit 80, and we began dueling. I was (of course) urinating all over his poor, under-aged face and beating him- until he typhooned me and then ran off in travel form to heal himself.

I thought "haha, yeah, go for it." and slowly walked up to him, thinking he wouldn't heal for much.

Then I noticed he went from literally 6% health to 73% in a couple of seconds. As a Moonkin. And still had a lot of mana to spare.

I couldn't believe it. And then I got to see the state PvP was in at higher gear levels and I was literally floored by what I saw. I still, to this fucking day, can't wrap my head around just how the game went from Point A to Point B so fucking fast. It was just 10 levels, what the hell happened?

Part of the reason WotLK PvP was so messed up was because of the horribly over penetrated talent trees. Sinking 71 points into a tree meant to only hold 51 was -not- a good idea and it made "hybridding" a serious issue.

"Bu-But Jimpaladin!!!! Hybridding is COOOLLLL!!!!"



While I am not one for 'hybridding', myself, I have no real problem with it- but it has to be done CORRECTLY. And in WoW's instance- it has to be done INTENTIONALLY. The thing about WotLK was that people were never SUPPOSED to specc that far into another talent tree. This wasn't -nearly- so bad in TBC (though it was kind of an issue) because with only 10 more points, you couldn't really specc too deep into a separate tree, but once WotLK hit you finally had enough points to start getting the powerful mid-tree skills of another tree. It was fucked up.

This as fixed in Cataclysm (and then grilled to death in MoP), but the stat inflation only got considerably worse.

As it stands today, we're literally wearing a Vanilla player for our bracers. Well geared tanks are pushing like 750k+ health without buffs and we're not even to the last raid of the expansion, yet. (Compared to Cata's 200kish tank health, and that was also an insane leap from WotLK's health pools).

I thought we wouldn't be breaching 1 million health until next expansion, but at this rate, we'll end the next expansion with healthpools possibly pushing like 20 million and shit.

What the fuck is wrong with Blizzard?

I mean, yeah sure, there's -talk- of potential "item squishing" and by GOD would I love to see it, but until it actually happens, all it is is talk; and based on how they just keep producing content that gives us higher and higher stats- it doesn't seem like they have any real intentions with it and it's just wishful "if we could!" thinking.

They can throw up their hands and say "We finally get it! We finally understand!" all they want, and try to retro-format PvP with all these weird changes that don't really fix anything- but it's far too late. Anything short of a complete numerical re-calculation of massive proportions is going to be able to fix what's happened with the game, either 'squishing' the stats down (the best choice) or at least re-scaling everything so it makes better sense, and isn't just mindless stat increases with absolutely no thought or concern as to how it's going to actually- oh, I dunno- effect the fucking game.

Personally I hold no faith for Blizzard to undertake such a task, and I- like many others (Blizzard themselves included), am content to just let PvP be a piece of dead content only meant to be done as a recreational side once in awhile in random BG queues. It's too bad the game has come to this, and it's so bad that even PvE is being heavily effected by the rampant stat increases (just look at all the stupid things they have to do for tanks in order to make sure they can hold aggro against the fucked up levels of DPS going out)- but, what can you do?

So, yeah. PvP died with WotLK and each expansion since has only buried it further and further underneath a mountain of numbers.




Spoken like a true Wrath of the Lich King player.



You answered your own question.

whats a great post and i agree with you 100%-even though i think there is more to it then just stat inflation.i have been saying this over and over again for years,BC was wows prime years for both pvp and pve.wrath is where everything started to go to shit.people try and say well wrath had more specs in pvp and all that crap.i reply well wrath introduced a new class that alone = more specs in pvp right?also wrath is where blizz got rid of pvp and pve specs = bad thing.everything got normalized,health pools,Armour ect =bad thing.

- - - Updated - - -

It was also TBC, not Vanilla

These were Canadian players (and possibly a few players in a few states, Vermont comes to mind as one) and the reason they didn't go was due to Consumer laws in those places. Sure Blizzard could have figured out something, but the number of players affected by that were about a dozen. WoW went on to record popularity two expansions later, and if you go by this forum, the best PvP was still an expansion away (WotLK minus Season 5).

So that particular case doesn't really hold as even a partial cause of the downfall of WoW PvP.

wrath sold alot of copies because it lived off of BC rep.read what i just wrote in my other post-wrath pvp is where everything went to shit.having more specs in the game does not mean better pvp balance.wow and GC said that himself,the game would be better off if they went back to pvp and pve spec.thats how they could separate pvp and pve without actually changing how talents work.but they blizz did that then all the kiddys would cry and say i want to play frost or arms in pve why cant i.season 5 was the most "worst" season ever in wow,how could wrath have the best pvp when it had season 5 in it?

[Deleted]

Mages.. Simple.

[Azaile-]

It was also TBC, not Vanilla

These were Canadian players (and possibly a few players in a few states, Vermont comes to mind as one) and the reason they didn't go was due to Consumer laws in those places. Sure Blizzard could have figured out something, but the number of players affected by that were about a dozen. WoW went on to record popularity two expansions later, and if you go by this forum, the best PvP was still an expansion away (WotLK minus Season 5).

So that particular case doesn't really hold as even a partial cause of the downfall of WoW PvP.

effected alot more than a dozen people, Australia was also apart of this. I remember having my arena team at the time destroyed because i wasn't able to compete with them

[Siddown]

effected alot more than a dozen people, Australia was also apart of this. I remember having my arena team at the time destroyed because i wasn't able to compete with them

But even if it was 100 people, in most people's opinion PvP got better for the next 7 seasons (Season 5 excluded). Sales also almost doubled in that time up to 12.5 subs years later. It happened when PvP was improving, so citing it as even a tiny cause of PvP's demise is a bit of a stretch.

[Kreeshak]

But even if it was 100 people, in most people's opinion PvP got better for the next 7 seasons (Season 5 excluded). Sales also almost doubled in that time up to 12.5 subs years later. It happened when PvP was improving, so citing it as even a tiny cause of PvP's demise is a bit of a stretch.

Numbers or sales is not THE deciding factor if something is better or worse, if it is improving or declining. You could claim that in Democracy the better person gets more votes than the worse person, but then again Bush junior got elected. There are far more factors that affect numbers. The Godfather (1978) is considered one of the best movies ever made yet it sold 10 times less tickets than Harry Potter.

Even if PVP or the game was improved after season 1, even if it peaked, Blizzard never cared about the esport aspect of PVP which is what this example was about. And if some of the best players quit because of that, that could potentially hurt the popularity of the game and make the fanbois follow them to their next game which ultimately contributed to PVP's demise.

EDIT: You could also claim that after season 1 the increased sales related to the PVE aspect of the game as opposed to the PVP aspect. So to rule out Blizzard neglecting esport factor because PVE appelead to more people, if the claim is valid, is wrong.

[Tyrannica]

65% base resi for everyone = facepalm.

thats actually double facepalm, and they expand on this by increasing it.

This together with low ilvl is the way to make pvp gear 2nd class, something to spit on.

[Siddown]

Numbers or sales is not THE deciding factor if something is better or worse, if it is improving or declining. You could claim that in Democracy the better person gets more votes than the worse person, but then again Bush junior got elected. There are far more factors that affect numbers. The Godfather (1978) is considered one of the best movies ever made yet it sold 10 times less tickets than Harry Potter.

Even if PVP or the game was improved after season 1, even if it peaked, Blizzard never cared about the esport aspect of PVP which is what this example was about. And if some of the best players quit because of that, that could potentially hurt the popularity of the game and make the fanbois follow them to their next game which ultimately contributed to PVP's demise.

EDIT: You could also claim that after season 1 the increased sales related to the PVE aspect of the game as opposed to the PVP aspect. So to rule out Blizzard neglecting esport factor because PVE appelead to more people, if the claim is valid, is wrong.

Kreeshak, this entire thread is about the single factor contributing to WoW's PvP decline. Now, the person who brought up the issues with people not being invited to Blizzcon was clear that they didn't think it was a major factor, but still said it was a factor.

If you listen to the same people on this site, WoW PvP peaked seven or so seasons later. That is a fair amount of time after the issue, so even bringing up an out of game incident that affected an incredibly small percentage of players as a downfall to a system that was actually improving quite a bit for the next few years is a massive stretch.

I know this is the internet and people love to be right about stuff, but there is no way a rational person can argue that someone that happened to a handful of people in Season 1 contributed to breaking PvP in season 13. Not when there are dozens of other well thought out rational reasons that are well documented.

[Kreeshak]

Kreeshak, this entire thread is about the single factor contributing to WoW's PvP decline. Now, the person who brought up the issues with people not being invited to Blizzcon was clear that they didn't think it was a major factor, but still said it was a factor.

If you listen to the same people on this site, WoW PvP peaked seven or so seasons later. That is a fair amount of time after the issue, so even bringing up an out of game incident that affected an incredibly small percentage of players as a downfall to a system that was actually improving quite a bit for the next few years is a massive stretch.

I know this is the internet and people love to be right about stuff, but there is no way a rational person can argue that someone that happened to a handful of people in Season 1 contributed to breaking PvP in season 13. Not when there are dozens of other well thought out rational reasons that are well documented.

It is not what happened in season 1. What happened in season 1 was an example out of many, like lack of official tournaments, that Blizzard never cared to make PVP an esport.

[rjparker]

baseline resilience is the worst thing to happen to PVP and will explain why in the next video and/or post. Neverthless, to provide a reasonable and intelligent explanation why this is the case.

- and there's more - but you get the pt

Rogues gank people. So do Druid. Baseline resilience was designed to keep people from dying from a single shot. If you played WoW at its inception, PvP was very lopsided. You were doing a quest in a contested zone, and all of a sudden you died because a Rogue\druid decides to drop you without warning. Not really fun. Maybe you forgot how you started playing because I am SURE you didn't come into this game with the knowledge and skill on the first day you had to learn.

Let's not also forget that there are MANY levels of players that enjoy wow, 12 year olds to 60 year olds, females (yes they DO play) and males, casual people that enjoy questing and leveling professions in contested zones.. dealing with skilled PvP players, how soon we forget. WoW has evolved over time to deal with these problems. People complain.. majority in fact, which as we all know majority rules. All those different groups of people had their say, and they wanted to have better survive-ability.

WPvP there isn't anything wrong with it, it's fine. Problem is people whine about PvP servers, or flag in PvE servers for PvP or heal\assist PvP players and become flagged as a result.. now you are a TARGET whether you like it or not. WPvP is chaotic, it's not broken, it's not unbalanced its' unpredictable as it SHOULD be, PLAYERS are ALL different. That's what makes WoW truly unique.

Why is a system that allows interaction (because its a MASSIVE ONLINE MULTI-PLAYER GAME) between players broken simply because it doesn't AGREE with your style of play? IT isn't broken, YOUR attitude over WPvP is broken, that's the real issue.

WPvP is exactly as intended, dealing with other unpredictable, extreme players while dealing with mobs.. that is the nature of WoW and the essence of a ROLE PLAYING GAME.

Where the hell did you people learn role playing, board games? This is EXACTLY what Dungeons and Dragons had envisioned, if Gary Gygax were still alive (WTF is Gary Gygax?!? google it!) he would LOVE playing WoW. Love it, because this is how he would say it would meet his expectations of ROLE PLAYING.

If you don't agree with it, that's fine. Its clear it only means you know ZERO about how WoW is really played. Multi player makes the game different not killing mobs because their AI is routine.

[Naxere]

Hmm, I think the addition of PvP Power/Resilience did it for me. There could've been better ways to differentiate between PvP/PvE gear, and I think the option they decided to go with was the worst one.

[Lilly32]

Heals being too powerful, nukes being too powerful,

OK so those cancel each other out. Doesnt that mean balance?

[oblongship]

I am not an old school wow player, I didn't play wow in vanilla, although I truly wish I did. I am not a new school wow player, I didn't hop on the fun train at the start of MOP. Silvio Dante's (Hbo Soprano fame) TV ad back at the beginning of WOTLK lured me and pulled me into realm of WOW. At the time, early 2009, Wow boasted 11million subs and in the following months proceeded to knock at the door of 12million subs. Warhammer, Rift, SWTOR and GW2 couldn't do anything more than put a "slight" dent in Wow's sub base.

So why did Wow go from knocking on the front door of 12 million subs to 7 million subs in a 2 year span? Where did the game begin to lose integrity and quality and spark a very slow yet steady nosedive?

I believe Wow's decline is greatly indicative as well as reflective of the current "horrendous" state of Wow PVP. By no means do I believe PVP is the primary, let alone secondary, interest of the core and/or majority of Wow players. Nevertheless, the manner in which Blizzard addressed issues in PVP in patch 5.3 is amazingly reflective of how and why the interest, respect and quality of Wow in general is rapidly declining.

The video explains when the decline began as well as when the freefall accelerated.

I am going to whole heartily pass on this channel...

The first 2 and a half minutes is him basically begging for subscriptions and comments, then I scroll down and see him fighting with people making comments...

Lost all credibility instantly...

No Thanks...

[Verain]

Every healer having a dispel and the amount of CC every class gets.

I'll simply as "the changes to the dispel and CC models", and agree.

[oblongship]

I am going to whole heartily pass on this channel...

The first 2 and a half minutes is him basically begging for subscriptions and comments, then I scroll down and see him fighting with people making comments...

Lost all credibility instantly...

No Thanks...

Just an update to everyone checking this post out.

I left a comment on his channel telling him I was passing because of his fights with viewers and basically what I said in the above quote.

He deleted my comment and then any fight he had with users...talk about not being transparent and hiding your own actions..I posted again asking about the deletion only to have it deleted again within seconds...kind of pathetic.

If you want your channel to grow man, don't resort to displaying only the good things and deleting any negative criticism...if you keep doing that your channel will certainly fail.

Heck why do you think you have nearly equal dislikes as you do likes? Take the comments good or bad and don't be afraid to improve yourself...

Again like I said before I will be avoiding this channel like the plague...

[Drakesong]

The reason behind the decline of WoW PvP? Crowd Control, crowd control everywhere!

[Feranor]

There isn't a single issue. The base problem, however, is instanced PvP.

[BFGrid]

I believe imbalanced health pools relative to how much damage and healing players are designed to be capable of doing is the number one reason.

Everything else is a consequence of this, particularly the current reliance on crowd-control. There are also fewer victories, from what I've seen personally, that occur through attrition as opposed to popping everything you've got at once, going all-in, and hoping for the best.