RPPM Good or Bad?

[l33t]

RPPM sucks. Well, to be honest, it sucks just as much as every other change they've made to MoP. People hate RNG. They hate it actually from the very beginning of the game, because RNG sucks all the time, due to Murphy laws or whatever. And guess what Blizzard do? They implement more RNG everywhere.
My trinkets proc all the time when I cannot damage the boss. Now, with changes in 5.4, the situation will be even more disastrous. No, I absolutely don't want to play a damage dealer in such conditions, since I want my damage dealt is not being based over pure luckiness in stupid fucking RNG.

[Count Zero]

Aside from a couple people here and there (mostly warlocks and tanks) that doesn't happen though. The top parses are fully of lucky bastards that have gear. If as you say people who are good are always up there you'd see a lot more people at the top ranking multiple times but you just don't.

I dunno, I checked, the top-ranking folks all have numerous ranks, and many of them have just a ton of ranks -- many of them have multiple top 10 rankings. The variance across fights stems largely from spec/class strengths on given encounter types.

I just think the nearly-zero RNG of ICD / on-use trinkets is far too static. I have to admit I'm not familiar with Rogue dps, but if the rotation is going to be the exact same no matter what, then I'd think your real issue should be with the strength of trinkets. I don't think two pieces of equipment should account for nearly as much dps as the rest of your gear combined (except maybe your weapon[s]). With them being less strong, the RNG which I feel is necessary to keep things from being stale doesn't result in such wild swings.

I realize my opinion is in the minority on MMO-C with regard to rppm; I just think it's incredibly odd that so many people seem to have a problem with the rng and not the strength of trinkets. I dunno, maybe it's because I came into RPGs from a pencil/paper/dice background and I see rng as a fundamental element of rpgs.

[Kulestu]

The only thing is that, even when my opening burst falls because of shitty RNG, my overall damage doesn't go down that much. Warlocks are almost entirely reliant on good UVLS procs. My burst might drop from 700k to 250k, but my consistent damage doesn't tend to go below 200k.

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RPPM sucks. Well, to be honest, it sucks just as much as every other change they've made to MoP. People hate RNG. They hate it actually from the very beginning of the game, because RNG sucks all the time, due to Murphy laws or whatever. And guess what Blizzard do? They implement more RNG everywhere.
My trinkets proc all the time when I cannot damage the boss. Now, with changes in 5.4, the situation will be even more disastrous. No, I absolutely don't want to play a damage dealer in such conditions, since I want my damage dealt is not being based over pure luckiness in stupid fucking RNG.

I enjoy RNG, but I don't enjoy RNG when it can either make or break your damage on a fight. I like correctable RNG, or stuff you can work with (dispatch procs).

[whathump]

I enjoy RNG, but I don't enjoy RNG when it can either make or break your damage on a fight. I like correctable RNG, or stuff you can work with (dispatch procs).

I'd compare Blindside to chance on hit trinkets, like Vial of Eternal Shadows or the multi-strike portion of Haromm's Talisman. Works by about the same mechanics. It's RNG, but it's RNG that will even out over the course of a fight. RPPM will even out over time, but from my logs I've looked at it doesn't seem like a 6-10 minute fight is long enough for it to even out.

[Skarzog]

I dunno, the top-ranking folks all have numerous ranks, and many of them have just a ton of ranks -- many of them have multiple top 10 rankings. The variance across fights stems largely from spec/class strengths on given encounter types.

I just think the nearly-zero RNG of ICD / on-use trinkets is far too static. I have to admit I'm not familiar with Rogue dps, but if the rotation is going to be the exact same no matter what, then I'd think your real issue should be with the strength of trinkets. I don't think two pieces of equipment should account for nearly as much dps as the rest of your gear combined (except maybe your weapon[s]). With them being less strong, the RNG which I feel is necessary to keep things from being stale doesn't result in such wild swings.

I realize my opinion is in the minority on MMO-C with regard to rppm; I just think it's incredibly odd that so many people seem to have a problem with the rng and not the strength of trinkets. I dunno, maybe it's because I came into RPGs from a pencil/paper/dice background and I see rng as a fundamental element of rpgs.

Most people reaching for the high ranks are farming ToT and have been doing so for a while. At this stage ranking involves a few things other than luck. One of which getting the rest of your raid to possibly wipe and cheese fights by dropping a significant number of healers. I would argue the rest of your team is more detrimental to how well you rank than luck even. But with the RPPM trinkets luck still plays a significant role, more so than people are comfortable with.

And I agree with you that trinkets are becoming too powerful. With the exception of a few trinkets such as Dragonspine or Deathbringers Will, I don't think I have ever seen trinkets make such an impact on damage as they have this tier.

In terms of randomness being necessary I would also agree, it is an essential component of any good game. However, the challenge is to balance the randomness and make sure the player still feels they have enough control over their performance. There was already plenty of randomness built into the game before RPPM, for some more than others depending on the class and spec. So while randomness is good, it does not need to be built into every aspect of the game.

[Warstar]

What I'd really like to see is a haste-altered ICD or more on-use trinkets that don't nicely align with CDs, and possibly more RPPM effects that are not the main attraction on gear. Something like Dancing Steel being RPPM is 100% okay because the benefit is minimal - a feral would ideally want their bleeds to include it, but it won't make or break their DPS like RoR. Having to decide whether to delay a class CD or trinket CD to line them up vs. using one more often but separately is more compelling mentally, and can vary by encounter rather than having an absolute "always align them" response. I could see ICDR-haste being a problem because you'd want an exact value to align with cooldowns, though...

Would be an interesting system to make it work like ret paladins where the amount of haste you have lowers the ICD of a trinket.

I just think the nearly-zero RNG of ICD / on-use trinkets is far too static. I have to admit I'm not familiar with Rogue dps, but if the rotation is going to be the exact same no matter what, then I'd think your real issue should be with the strength of trinkets. I don't think two pieces of equipment should account for nearly as much dps as the rest of your gear combined (except maybe your weapon[s]). With them being less strong, the RNG which I feel is necessary to keep things from being stale doesn't result in such wild swings.

It's not the strength of trinkets that's the issue. It's the randomness where if it lines up perfectly with a CD it get's manipulatively better. Like a trinket procing during vendetta will be 25% better compared to a trinket procing outside of it and there's no way to get around that aside from pure dumb luck.

Lemme ask you this: what actually is your defination of skill? With trinket tracking and knowing when to use or hold off on a CD is what many people argue is skill you think it's not. So if you take that out. What is there that makes a good player different from a great? Other classes do but rogues in general don't have a way to react to randomness aside from luck. If vendetta/shadow blades is down and your trinkets proc there's simply nothing to do outside of trying to squeeze in an extra envenom or with renetakis save them til the end but even that is a marginal dps increase over all compared to the big picture.

You don't like the staticness but if anything it's dumbed it down even further and taken a step that people did do, the tracking of ICDs on trinkets, and made the game over less of a decision to make. So by your own argument rogues are more static now than ever before.

And I agree with you that trinkets are becoming too powerful. With the exception of a few trinkets such as Dragonspine or Deathbringers Will, I don't think I have ever seen trinkets make such an impact on damage as they have this tier.

In terms of randomness being necessary I would also agree, it is an essential component of any good game. However, the challenge is to balance the randomness and make sure the player still feels they have enough control over their performance. There was already plenty of randomness built into the game before RPPM, for some more than others depending on the class and spec. So while randomness is good, it does not need to be built into every aspect of the game.

RoRo is a game breaking trinket for certain classes/specs to the point that they're completely redesigning WW monk's mastery because of it which is pretty big.

Dispatch and cold blood/revealing strike provide a nice bit of randomness for those specs already which almost guarantees that no fight even if it's the same duration will ever play exactly the same.

[Deleted]

I must be playing a different game, never in my raid have I seen a 300k dps difference between two damage dealers because of anything, much less a trinket proc.

RPPM can be a pain sometimes yeah, but I'll have that over boring ICDs any day of the week. Procs feel like procs, not like a clockwork that goes off every minute in predictable fashion.

[Deleted]

As part of a casual raiding guild, time is our most scarce resource, and doing Lei Shen P1 in 3 pillars as opposed to 4 gives us almost 30min more progress per raid. And while we can achieve this without waiting the magical 3 minutes for the RPPM proc modifier (would kind of defeat the purpose), there's been pulls where we all just get bad RNG and have to wipe it. Everyone is doing the exact same thing over and over, but sometimes we as a raid just get owned by the number's game.

RPPM is like cata fire mages, except it's the entire raid.

[Razecog]

RPPM isn't bad, it's fucking horrible.

[-Raer-]

I must be playing a different game, never in my raid have I seen a 300k dps difference between two damage dealers because of anything, much less a trinket proc.

The difference of 300k~ is being discussed in terms of BURST dps, not sustained. If there's a 300k difference in sustained dps...someone was obviously doing it VERY, very wrong.

[Deleted]

The difference of 300k~ is being discussed in terms of BURST dps, not sustained. If there's a 300k difference in sustained dps...someone was obviously doing it VERY, very wrong.

In 10 man it's almost 1 million raid DPS difference.

Peak burst without procs: 2,85M raid DPS
Peak burst with procs: 3,73M raid DPS

[Deleted]

Still not convinced people aren't being able to progress due to this...

But it seems blizzard has made all kinds of trinkets for SoO yeah? ICD, on use, rppm...

[Deleted]

Still not convinced people aren't being able to progress due to this...

But it seems blizzard has made all kinds of trinkets for SoO yeah? ICD, on use, rppm...

It's not that we can't progress. It's that progress becomes more cumbersome when you need to wait between pulls and when RNG in procs can make or break a fight (as is the case with my guild doing 3 pillar P1 Lei Shen).

RPPM is a noble idea, but the complete randomness can only work if the impact of such randomness is minimal. At the moment that just isn't the case.

[slime]

Bringing RNG to actual game play does kinda suck. It sucks hard when farming 1%ers - but at least I could always count on my dps.

You'd think since this seems like such a negative they would've given us a plus for it - not just "THIS WILL BE SOOOO MUCH FUNZ GUYZ TRUST US!!!" Maybe like we get 1.5 times dare I say even twice the procs of the easy to time trinkets? maybe?

[Warstar]

Still not convinced people aren't being able to progress due to this...

But it seems blizzard has made all kinds of trinkets for SoO yeah? ICD, on use, rppm...

It's aimed towards guilds who are still progressing. Who as a whole might now have the greatest dps. Sure you might have a couple epeen stroking meter humping dps but then the rest is just a little lower. Where some guilds like Paragon and Method and push content based on skill as much as anything some guilds need the added dps that gear gives and even then they might still need some help. So, when on one fight you barely win because some dps got lucky and you were able to push past that ass phase you've been struggling on and kill the boss and then the next time you go in your dps don't get those lucky streaks or you have to wipe 10 times before you can kill it when the dps gets a good roll that's kinda stupid.

Sure you could argue that people just need to get better but in reality that's what gear is for. Gear is a band aid for a lower skill level. Still able to go through and clear the place just not as good and maybe a normal raider instead of a heroic raider.

So I'd argue that RPPM is horrible for the game because it screws up progression. When some guilds might not be ready for a boss kill they could get lucky and get it one week and then the next week when they can't it feels extra bad to them because they thought they'd "progressed" when in reality they had just gotten lucky.

[Deleted]

they removed armor pen / mp5 becouse they was to confusing for some and now they added Rppm give me armor pen back then

[Sesshou]

No, I'm pretty sure they removed Arp because of its increasing returns which doesn't work well as a stat on gear that you can stack.

[Deleted]

I'm sure many people are exaggerating in this thread.

[Dropndestroyrr]

In all of the weeks of farm and progression, the rng of rppm has never really mattered until you tried for ranks. The dps "floor" so to speak with ToT gear levels was always enough to kill 13/13hm. Rppm really affects rankings at the top end. For those that were "lucky" 1 week and killed a boss that they can't afterwards it comes down to not being ready for that boss at their particular gear level with their raid's skill.

[Coldkil]

Still not convinced people aren't being able to progress due to this...

But it seems blizzard has made all kinds of trinkets for SoO yeah? ICD, on use, rppm...

it's not a progress thing - trinkets are just a dps increase o matter what, so from that pov RPPM ones are exactly like the opthers.

The point is they are completely random and ungovernable. The "fun" having double pocs is completely obliterated by the fact they can easily proc 1 time only through the entire fight. On the contrary, ICD oand on-use ones have a degree of predicatbility that can make them more "boring", but in practice they add an additional layer of CDs management that gives the player direct control on his perfomance.

RPPM are bad just because they proc randomly, and you don't have any choice about that.