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  1. #1

    The numbers are in... part 5

    At the end of each tier I have been compiling hunter numbers to see where we landed and post each time. As usual you get the Slants of the world dismissing this or that, or Blizz do bots saying our numbers do not matter etc.

    Lets have a look at the only numbers we have and the numbers raid leaders and guild leaders (the two people that consider your numbers for raid spots and letting you in a better guild) the only two people that honestly matter in the equation.

    This spots are based on 11 dps specs and taking the highest hunter spec for each fight to at least try and show hunters in a better light.

    All Parses/1month/2 weeks/Max

    Jin: 10/11
    Horr: 9/11
    Coun: 10/11
    Tor: 5/11 bat padding!
    Maeg: 10/11
    Jin: 9/11
    Durm:10/11
    Prime:7/11
    DA: 11/11
    IQ: 6/11
    Twins: 8/11
    Lei:8/11
    Rad: 7/11

    All/1month/2weeks/90%

    Jin: 8/11
    Horr: 10/11
    Coun: 9/11
    Tort: 7/11
    Maeg: 10/11
    Jin: 10/11
    Durm:7/11
    Prim: 10/11
    DA: 7/11
    IQ: 7/11
    Twin: 7/11
    Lei: 6/11
    Rad: 7/11

    All parses/1month/2weeks/80%

    Jin: 9/11
    Horr: 8/11
    Coun: 10/11
    Tort: 8/11
    Maeg:10/11
    Jin: 9/11
    Durm: 7/11
    Prime: 9/11
    DA: 9/11
    IQ: 7/11
    Twin: 8/11
    Lei: 6/11
    Rad: 7/11

    All parses/1month/2weeks/70%

    Jin: 9/11
    Horr: 7/11
    Coun: 9/11
    Tort: 9/11
    Maeg: 10/11
    Jin: 10/11
    Durm: 6/11
    Prime: 9/11
    DA: 9/11
    IQ: 7/11
    Twin: 7/11
    Lei: 5/11
    Rad: 7/11

    I did not go below 70% because well, I think we all know why.

  2. #2
    Elemental Lord Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    I don't keep track on parses so I would like to know what you mean by "1month/2weeks/%%" otherwise I can't make sense on those.

  3. #3
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...all/14/30/max/

    The question you have has to do with the options.
    You can set All or Top parses (all giving the data from every parse on WoL)
    You can set the time span you want to look at. ( 1month meaning the last 30 days of raiding logs)
    You can set which parses you want to look at ( 1 day, 1 week, 2 weeks etc. I did 2 weeks as it bring the most information in)
    The percents you see are set as how well you are doing. Max is the best there is, 90% is where we ranked with others that played well enough to get an "A" 80% is a B etc... the 50% post is pretty much your raider that is completely average.

    What you are seeing is the only numbers we have for actual fights, Blizz says these do not mean anything and their secret undercover numbers are more accurate. I say these are the numbers raid leaders and guild leaders look at so they are all that really matter.
    What your seeing is hunters are complete garbage and well below average. These numbers refute several of the vocal minority that have tried to say hunters are middle and all the way up to great... Hunters aren't that, and no matter how anyone tries to twist it, hundreds of thousands of raid logs > personal anecdotal evidence all day.
    Last edited by jax; 2013-08-25 at 03:39 PM.

  4. #4
    Are those numbers just based on 25 Man Heroic?

    If so, those numbers mean little to Blizzard since it should be obvious that they do not balance around 25 Man Heroic only.


    I agree that raid leaders might look at those numbers and slot with that in mind, but Blizzard has made it clear that the slotting choices of guilds chasing world/region/realm firsts is not of major importance to them.

    They view that as outliers, not the norm.

    ----

    Our position in 10 man heroic and 25/10 normals is better (not great) but at least average or slightly above. You just can't ignore that info since that is where the vast majority of people playing the game are at.
    Last edited by Rackfu; 2013-08-25 at 04:02 PM.

  5. #5
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    Our position in 10 man heroic and 25/10 normals is better (not great) but at least average or slightly above. You just can't ignore that info since that is where the vast majority of people playing the game are at.
    After checking the same site but using 10hc, it isn't really any better.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Joyful View Post
    After checking the same site but using 10hc, it isn't really any better.
    Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but in 25H we are ranked #14, but in 10H we're ranked #11. I'm not saying we jump to the front in 10H, but it improves.

    25N, BM is ranked #4
    10N, BM is ranked #7

    Average that out and BM ranks #9 across 10/25 normals and heroics

  7. #7
    Over 9000! Poppincaps's Avatar
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    So at best we're average or slightly below average and at worst we're fucking horrible... Come on guys, that seems totally reasonable to me. /sarcasm

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but in 25H we are ranked #14, but in 10H we're ranked #11. I'm not saying we jump to the front in 10H, but it improves.

    25N, BM is ranked #4
    10N, BM is ranked #7

    Average that out and BM ranks #9 across 10/25 normals and heroics
    9 out 11 is still pretty bad. like idk why you are looking at specs and not clases.

    normals at this point wont matter. any guild leader/raid leader looking at logs to do normals is kinda meh. ppl in normals are not affected by performance. unless they are really really really bad. still.
    Last edited by Perrito; 2013-08-25 at 06:12 PM.

  9. #9
    9 out 11 is still pretty bad. like idk why you are looking at specs and not clases.
    9 out of 21 specs.... so, above average.

    By Class:

    25H - 9/11
    10H - 6/11
    25N - 4/11
    10N - 6/11

    For an average of 6.25/11.... so just below average.

    normals at this point wont matter. any guild leader/raid leader looking at logs to do normals is kinda meh. ppl in normals are not affected by performance. unless they are really really really bad. still.
    This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen in quite some time.
    Last edited by Rackfu; 2013-08-25 at 07:46 PM.

  10. #10
    Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but in 25H we are ranked #14, but in 10H we're ranked #11. I'm not saying we jump to the front in 10H, but it improves.

    25N, BM is ranked #4
    10N, BM is ranked #7

    Average that out and BM ranks #9 across 10/25 normals and heroics

    Why on Gods green earth would you be looking at all specs? Raiders use the best spec so there are 11 dps specs. Hell half the specs you are trying to include are unplayable (arms, frost, frost dk. MM hunter etc)

    And here you go looking at normals? Seriously? You think anyone even remotely worried about a raid spot or competing is looking at normal modes 2 week before 5.4?
    This kind of shit is what just makes the hunter community look like total fing idiots to everyone else. The fact that you would even post this nonsense much less even think it blows my mind. Stop being part of the problem or stop posting, I mean really? Can you not see what you just put down on a post is the most insane and backward thinking thing you could do? Normal modes???

    God help you guys.
    This is why we cant have nice things...

    9 out of 21 specs.... so, above average.
    I just... I cant anymore... Ill get banned if I say half the things I am thinking.
    Last edited by jax; 2013-08-25 at 07:54 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Why on Gods green earth would you be looking at all specs? Raiders use the best spec so there are 11 dps specs.
    For example, this is why all DPS shamans are enhancement (oh, wait...).

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    Can you not see what you just put down on a post is the most insane and backward thinking thing you could do? Normal modes???
    Some of you guys have your heads so far up your 13/13 HC asses that you can't see that the vast majority of people are still raiding normals or early heroics and at those levels hunters are ok.... not great, but average.

    And because hunters perform ok at those levels, Blizzard is not going to buff us as much as people want or think they should.

    So, yes, if you want take a look at the type of numbers that Blizzard is seeing and basing hunters on, you have to look at normal modes.

    I'm sure the raid lead of Method or Blood Legion doesn't look at normals when forming a raid team and slotting, but that has nothing to do with Blizzard and how they balance classes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here is another thing that probably resembles something that Blizzard has internal numbers on:

    http://www.guildox.com/go/g.aspx?a=26&c=1&e=pve

    It is GuildOx's spec use ranking for the top 5% of PvE players. I'm not 100% sure what top 5% means, but I think they are using their PvE ranking which is heavily influenced by progression kills. According to that, hunters made up 11% (BM 6.3 and SV 4.6) of top progession players.

    Doesnt mean we are good, but it would suggest that we are not getting benched, and if Blizzard has similar numbers, then I'm sure all the forum complaints are going to fall on deaf ears.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    9 out of 21 specs.... so, above average.

    By Class:

    25H - 9/11
    10H - 6/11
    25N - 4/11
    10N - 6/11

    For an average of 6.25/11.... so just below average.

    This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen in quite some time.
    9/11 classes doesnt mean 9/21 specs. Some classes can have 2 or 3 specs ahead of us on the charts but are only counted as 1. The whole point is that those classes can just change spec to the one with the best DPS and jump over us while we are stuck with low performance.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    I'm sure the raid lead of Method or Blood Legion doesn't look at normals when forming a raid team and slotting, but that has nothing to do with Blizzard and how they balance classes.
    IMO Blizzard should be balancing numbers off of the theoretical maximum a spec can do. If some specs are easy to play so that people using them in normal raids do better than people playing hard specs, they should make those specs more complex. Also if spec complexity boosts the dps Blizzard will give you why isnt MM higher than it is?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    9 out of 21 specs.... so, above average.
    this is you trying to make it look that we are fine, when we are not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    By Class:
    25H - 9/11
    10H - 6/11
    this is what it really matters, no one will get sit in a normal mode guild, i think ppl went on this already, if i was doing normals i will outpds the mage next to me because he probably have no clue wtf he is doing.

    if im doing LFR is the same deal, i will be top because half the raid is afk, i afk myself and just autoattack while writing this post.

    ^ those are the reasons why normals and LFR dont matter. you for sure are not 100% sure where do blizzard balance dps at, if you think you do let me tell you sir that you are wrong, unless you can quote them saying so.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    For an average of 6.25/11.... so just below average.
    love when you just pull numbers out of your arse.

    in 25h we are almost last. beating 2 clases.
    in 10h we are mid pack.

    cant just add numbers and divide by 4 to get average, wtf is this you either raid 10 or raid 25 cant do both.



    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    This is one of the most ignorant things I've seen in quite some time.
    you should read your own post, i know shocking.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Rackfu View Post
    Some of you guys have your heads so far up your 13/13 HC asses that you can't see that the vast majority of people are still raiding normals or early heroics and at those levels hunters are ok.... not great, but average.

    And because hunters perform ok at those levels, Blizzard is not going to buff us as much as people want or think they should.

    So, yes, if you want take a look at the type of numbers that Blizzard is seeing and basing hunters on, you have to look at normal modes.

    I'm sure the raid lead of Method or Blood Legion doesn't look at normals when forming a raid team and slotting, but that has nothing to do with Blizzard and how they balance classes.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Here is another thing that probably resembles something that Blizzard has internal numbers on:

    http://www.guildox.com/go/g.aspx?a=26&c=1&e=pve

    It is GuildOx's spec use ranking for the top 5% of PvE players. I'm not 100% sure what top 5% means, but I think they are using their PvE ranking which is heavily influenced by progression kills. According to that, hunters made up 11% (BM 6.3 and SV 4.6) of top progession players.

    Doesnt mean we are good, but it would suggest that we are not getting benched, and if Blizzard has similar numbers, then I'm sure all the forum complaints are going to fall on deaf ears.
    No the Problem is we scale for shit, and being that we scale for shit everyone is right and everyone is wrong. All we need to do is hope when they redo us in the next expansion they get our scaling right and then we can be competitive in low and upper ilvl raids.

  16. #16
    What are the deltas between these numbers? As a percentage?
    Like, displaying it as a tiered list looks like a good idea when you don't think about it too much but what Blizzard are actually balancing for is for everyone to be the middle of the pack. If everyone around the area hunters are in are only ahead or below by a small margin and there are a couple of outliers (which will need to be reined in or boosted up) then they are basically doing their job.

    Near average is where everyone is supposed to be, slightly below average is not something Blizzard are going to be concerned about when balancing the game.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Slot View Post
    No the Problem is we scale for shit, and being that we scale for shit everyone is right and everyone is wrong. All we need to do is hope when they redo us in the next expansion they get our scaling right and then we can be competitive in low and upper ilvl raids.
    This is what bugs me the most. The entire argument against balancing hunters boils down to "we can't balance the class across the ilvl range for an entire tier, so we don't even bother." They do it for mages, locks and rogues, then refuse to do it for hunters.

    Why are hunters obligated to suffer the double-standard and why do jackholes think it's ok to rub our noses in it? It simply Blizzard not caring enough. Personally, I refuse to continue paying them for the sub-par treatment.

  18. #18
    Deleted
    I think comparing raidbots to "actual" dmg/dps is like blizz says not optimal. Only pure ST fights are a measure imo to really put the classes matchmaking.

    Jinrokh - class with best cd alligment wins
    Horridon - multidotters win
    Council - mdot wins again
    tortos - heavy aoe specs with additional scumbag dps for logs wins
    meagera - mdot wins with scumbag dps for logs
    jikun - in you are a dps whore you can take every feather available only for dmg buff
    durumu - icewalls! gues who will be on top!
    primordius - dot everything that moves = win WOL
    animus - dot massive = win meters again
    iron qon - pop cds when all 3 quillens+ boss available and try to race with tank. And you must be a dps whore not to nuke roshak asap ST.
    twins - some mdot involved but lets aoe those adds at p2 transition and fap @meters!
    lei'shen - more balls - more dps. lets spawn some adds for mages that can spsteel buffs for 25% dmg burst! if not try to catch up with locks!
    ra'den - mdot wins

    to the point - none of the logs you will take under consideration are meaningfull in progress terms. All logs posted atm are pure scumbag done solely for WOL rankings purposes and have nothing to do with executing the progres strategies. Hunters are weak on multi target fights even when the 2ndary targets are invalid for kills (like maegera) mdot classes will use them to boost their dps - hunters can't. Every class cannot do same dps in every situation just deal with it. One thing we should not accept is to not do 1st dps on heavy movement st fights. This should be a hunters sweet spot.

  19. #19
    Elemental Lord Spl4sh3r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jax View Post
    http://www.raidbots.com/dpsbot/Spec_...all/14/30/max/

    The question you have has to do with the options.
    You can set All or Top parses (all giving the data from every parse on WoL)
    You can set the time span you want to look at. ( 1month meaning the last 30 days of raiding logs)
    You can set which parses you want to look at ( 1 day, 1 week, 2 weeks etc. I did 2 weeks as it bring the most information in)
    The percents you see are set as how well you are doing. Max is the best there is, 90% is where we ranked with others that played well enough to get an "A" 80% is a B etc... the 50% post is pretty much your raider that is completely average.

    What you are seeing is the only numbers we have for actual fights, Blizz says these do not mean anything and their secret undercover numbers are more accurate. I say these are the numbers raid leaders and guild leaders look at so they are all that really matter.
    What your seeing is hunters are complete garbage and well below average. These numbers refute several of the vocal minority that have tried to say hunters are middle and all the way up to great... Hunters aren't that, and no matter how anyone tries to twist it, hundreds of thousands of raid logs > personal anecdotal evidence all day.
    So what you are saying you took parses from two weeks worth of fighting that was a month ago, when most the good players already cleared the raids ages ago? So what the parses are showing is basicly what rank "alt" hunters have? I wouldn't trust this unless it was since ToT released up to now.

  20. #20
    Just... no.

    You have to consider the fight mechanics for the whole tier on a fight by fight basis. Pure single-target dps means nothing if all fights are aoe/cleave or double DoT. I'm all for specs/classes being better on some fights than others. The problem is there aren't any niches Hunters excel at other than movement. We're only middle of the pack on IQ because Damren's deflection doesn't affect our pets. Bottom line is if you can't cleave or multi-dot you're dust in today's raiding environment. Guess what hunters suck at. We're not the only ones in this boat by any means but its the cause of the huge variance in practical encounter dps.

    - - - Updated - - -

    From ToT release would mean nothing... You're talking a sample that would span 30+ ilvls, with and without meta or cloak, hotfixes, patch 5.3...

    Parses going back a month using a two week moving average is showing how Hunters end a tier which is the point of his post. Ofc that's also largely meaningless since how they do during progression is what matters, but its going to be hard to get data for that at this point.

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