Ghostcrawler on Legendaries - Cataclysm Post Mortem

[RyanS]

I was just reading the Cataclysm post mortem with Ghostcrawler, and I found a paragraph about his thoughts on how legendaries were done, and how he felt.

"Speaking of raids, we also weren’t particularly happy with how accessible legendary items became in Cataclysm. Multiple characters in a single raiding guild were getting, and worse, expecting a legendary weapon. Legendaries are supposed to be rare and exciting, not a bar you fill up like some reputation grind, and certainly not something you feel entitled to get because it’s “your turn.” Dragonwrath in particular was usable by a large variety of class specs, which coupled with the guarantee to completion, just made them too ubiquitous. In the future, legendaries will be more legendary, perhaps so much so that not every raiding guild will have one. In that model, there might be those who almost, but not quite, complete one, but there will also be those who finish one and feel truly honored." - (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/451...treet-3_7_2012)

This is in stark contrast to the whole "Let LFR players have legendaries" and the whole mentality that every player should be able to get a legendary if they work hard that Blizzard, and some of the playerbase seem to have adopted.

Would love to hear other thoughts on the topic, despite it being done to death.

[Normie]

He's probably not happy about the cloaks, but he was apparently much unhappier about the way that "guaranteed grind" weapons worked.

Maybe the next iteration, the legendary weapon will require as much effort as the cloak to grind, and then at the very last, be a .5% drop assuming you've completed the grind.

[RyanS]

I feel as though they could have achieved his vision quite easily. I mean look at Val'ynr, or even do the same thing they did for shadowmourne (but maybe a bit harder)

[seam]

Coming back from Cata, I was actually kinda surprised at how they handled the legendary, it being a questline with a guarantee at the end. It kinda feels...weird. Not a bad weird exactly...but at the same time it kinda is?

I would like them to return to an older model, hell even a Shadowmourne/Valnyr one. It takes more work, and sure you have a good chance to get one but it's still pretty darn rare.

[Arkenaw]

I didn't really like the rarity of previous legendaries. I get the exclusiveness thing or whatever, but I literally never saw ANY on my server.

[seam]

I didn't really like the rarity of previous legendaries. I get the exclusiveness thing or whatever, but I literally never saw ANY on my server.

I agree with "SUPER ULTRA RARE DROPS" legendaries, but I saw quite a few Vanynr and Shadowmourne, hell we had a few on my super low pop server...

They were still really rare, but not .05% drop "Hope the stars align" rare.

[RyanS]

I didn't really like the rarity of previous legendaries. I get the exclusiveness thing or whatever, but I literally never saw ANY on my server.

That's the whole point though. Take lore for example, you dont see multiple Gorehowl's. You see one, because it's a legendary weapon. Legendaries should be a bit OP, and for them to be a bit OP, they have to be very uncommon. Legendaries that are just a little bit better than epics are not exactly legendaries

[xezar]

That's the whole point though. Take lore for example, you dont see multiple Gorehowl's. You see one, because it's a legendary weapon. Legendaries should be a bit OP, and for them to be a bit OP, they have to be very uncommon. Legendaries that are just a little bit better than epics are not exactly legendaries

Uh actually, you can farm as many Gorehowls as you want off the Prince in Kara. Or wait for the desecrated version off Garrosh now.

[nekobaka]

He's probably not happy about the cloaks, but he was apparently much unhappier about the way that "guaranteed grind" weapons worked.

Maybe the next iteration, the legendary weapon will require as much effort as the cloak to grind, and then at the very last, be a .5% drop assuming you've completed the grind.

In the end the legendary at this point will still be guaranteed and if you end up suffering from poor RNG along the way then Blizzards legendary catch up changes can help you out. The only thing that really has changed is the rate of which players can get them and now letting the entire raid work on the legendary and get it about the same time.

The point about it being a weapon being the issue is a possibility. GC complains that guilds was expecting to get a legendarily and have multiple of them and nothing has changed as of right now on the PTR.

[seam]

That's the whole point though. Take lore for example, you dont see multiple Gorehowl's. You see one, because it's a legendary weapon. Legendaries should be a bit OP, and for them to be a bit OP, they have to be very uncommon. Legendaries that are just a little bit better than epics are not exactly legendaries

Actually, going by that reasoning the Cape makes sense.
It's not a unique item, but it IS a rare item crafted for you by a Dragon. There's no reason there can't be only a single one, in this case.

Also about Gorehowl.... x3 It wasn't thaaaat rare.

[RyanS]

Uh actually, you can farm as many Gorehowls as you want off the Prince in Kara. Or wait for the desecrated version off Garrosh now.

Okay bad example, but in lore it still stands. Like Thrall's hammer or Frostmourne, there isn't multiple ones of those. I understanding having multiple available for gameplay, but they've taken it to a new level recently

[Baracuda]

That's the whole point though. Take lore for example, you dont see multiple Gorehowl's. You see one, because it's a legendary weapon. Legendaries should be a bit OP, and for them to be a bit OP, they have to be very uncommon. Legendaries that are just a little bit better than epics are not exactly legendaries

Gorehowl isn't legendary.

[Immitis]

I was just reading the Cataclysm post mortem with Ghostcrawler, and I found a paragraph about his thoughts on how legendaries were done, and how he felt.

"Speaking of raids, we also weren’t particularly happy with how accessible legendary items became in Cataclysm. Multiple characters in a single raiding guild were getting, and worse, expecting a legendary weapon. Legendaries are supposed to be rare and exciting, not a bar you fill up like some reputation grind, and certainly not something you feel entitled to get because it’s “your turn.” Dragonwrath in particular was usable by a large variety of class specs, which coupled with the guarantee to completion, just made them too ubiquitous. In the future, legendaries will be more legendary, perhaps so much so that not every raiding guild will have one. In that model, there might be those who almost, but not quite, complete one, but there will also be those who finish one and feel truly honored." - (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/451...treet-3_7_2012)

This is in stark contrast to the whole "Let LFR players have legendaries" and the whole mentality that every player should be able to get a legendary if they work hard that Blizzard, and some of the playerbase seem to have adopted.

Would love to hear other thoughts on the topic, despite it being done to death.

hes talking about legendary weapons. people like mumper have already stated its likely they will continue with the same system they had in mists (everyone experiences the lore) but have weapons (if they ever decide to do them again) be alot more rare and not so planned.

which means we will almost definitely get some form of legendary everyone can get, then if they feel like it a rare legendary weapon

[RyanS]

Gorehowl isn't legendary.

From a lore perspective it is. It's the weapon of Grom Hellscream... That was my point

[Immitis]

they also said it would be similar to bc legendaries should they ever do a weapon again.


which means this is what we will likely get, one legendary piece of armor that takes an entire expansion, if they feel like it or think it fits also a legendary weapon that will be a rare drop or more rng focused weapon legendary from a single tier with the legendary armor piece having a bunch of lore around it and questlines and events and stuff and with the weapon just being this super rare myth weapon majiggy

[Dblbaconator]

I was thinking about it earlier, and I'm kinda understanding their point by a desire to go back to an older model of legendary acquisition. And to be honest, I think that's part of what they tried to do this time, albeit in a way more people could take part in.

The hardest part of getting the earliest legendaries (with the exception of Atiesh, which I'll come back to) was fighting the RNG boss. Low drop on the Eye of Sulfuras, low drops on the Bindings, low drops on the Warglaives and Thori'dal. Fighting one giant RNG boss with an incredibly low drop rate meant that guilds could go entire expansions without seeing a legendary; conversely, others could end up insanely lucky and get multiples. It basically became an all-or-nothing deal. You got the one item you needed or you didn't, and more often you didn't.

With Atiesh, though, they tried something different, which makes me question why they just had legendaries straight-up drop from Illidan/Kil'jaeden in BC (I guess lore-wise assembling the glaives would be weird, but they could've done something with Thori'dal). Rather than fight one big RNG boss, you fought over a dozen smaller RNG bosses, picking up splinters of the frame. This evened out the distribution of legendaries a bit (although the number of guilds working through Naxx before BC was incredibly small anyway, so it's hard to say how evened out it was) and made it so that you had a better picture of how much longer it would take to get through the completion of the frame. The model was picked up again in Wrath for Val'anyr with the bonus of making Yogg-Saron drop a fragment every kill; thus, a guild who could clear Ulduar had a guaranteed maximum amount of time it would take to get a legendary: 30 weeks (minus the fragments already earned through progression). A player with thirteen fragments to go could, in theory, finish the collection in one week, or might spend another three months on it, but no more than that. Shadowmourne followed a similar model, but rewarded players with an epic weapon to use early on until they could get the legendary completed.

Then Cataclysm turned legendary acquisition into a formulaic affair. For Dragonwrath, bosses were basically guaranteed to drop the first item in the chain if someone was on the quest (not entirely guaranteed, I will add; recent experience has informed me that embers don't always drop on 10). Based on how many bosses you'd downed, you could figure out how long it would take to finish that stage. The final two collection stages were guaranteed and easily calculatable. It was a simple matter of just marking off the days until you got your legendary. The Fangs of the Father operated in a similar manner, minus a collection stage. Bosses would drop X gem clusters, clusters would contain Y gems, you will complete the daggers on Z date.

The entire Mists chain is somewhat a return to the Atiesh/Wrath model, even if it doesn't appear that way at first glance. The collection of Sigils, Secrets, and Runestones is a simple matter of fighting those small RNG bosses to complete a larger item. The questline also requires significant investment outside of raiding, whether it's grinding Wrathion's reputation or valor points, defeating bosses, winning battlegrounds, finishing raids (even if they're LFR), progressing through the Isle of Thunder, and pushing your character to its limits in solo encounters. It's a model that, while it might not work for every expansion, shares more in common with the older legendaries than one might think at first glance.

To summarize my thoughts, one single very low chance random drop is not a good way to handle a legendary. Guaranteed drops that can be used to determine exactly when you get your legendary is also not a good way. Low chance random drops of component parts is a very good way (I don't say best because that implies it can't be improved). It's something I hope we see more of in the future.

[vesseblah]

This is in stark contrast to the whole "Let LFR players have legendaries" and the whole mentality that every player should be able to get a legendary if they work hard that Blizzard, and some of the playerbase seem to have adopted.

Having guaranteed drops from every boss and you can count that in 7 weeks of boss kills you are 100% sure to get your legendary = bad

Personally working your ass off whole expansion long doing quests, dailies, raids, battlegrounds and everything possible = good


That paragraph was never about the absolute number of legendary items in the world, but the mechanic which guaranteed one every x weeks if you were a member of certain class regardless of if you personally work for it or not, boosted or not. My guild was working on the daggers for third alt at the end of DS farming "just in case" doing half the dps of mains while 20+ more deserving players didn't get anything from it.

[Voidgazer]

The Cata legenddary system was pretty bad.
MoP is hardly different from it, even worse really. It only has randomzied legendary pieces drops. But the main flaw remains - legendaries are way too accessible. I know, i know, it's cloacks not weapons blah blah blah.
I may have an unpopular opinion on this topic, but in my mind the main quality of a legendary item should be its rarity. Not how "hard" it to get, but how many people on a given server have it.
And the current system basically guarantees the legendary item to anyone who has the desire to get it.

I am not saying that the old models were much better though. Especially the TBC model, when luck was ALL you needed to get a legendary. That's not good either, but I still think that luck should be the major factor in obtaining legendaries.

So, my perfect legendary model follows this plan:
Stage 1: Extremely rare drop from a raid boss, that starts the legendary quest chain.
Stage 2, 3, 4 (In any order):
Collecting a few quest drops from raid bosses. Not at the level of Firelands farm though.
Collecting high level crafting materials either from your guildmates and friends or buying them from AH.
Solo scenario/challenge ala Dragonwrath Nexus or Warlocks' Black Temple.
Stage 5: Unique legendary quest line raid boss.

This way RNG ensures rarity of the legendary item (but it has to be ONE quest item, not TWO, you hear me Thunderfury?!), crafting components requirement encourages support from your guild OR, if you're a freelance adventurer, it tests your wealth. Compelting the solo scenario should prove the legendary wielder competence at playing his class. And finally an epic boss fight at the end of a legendary quest line is just a fun thing to have.

[nightfalls]

To summarize my thoughts, one single very low chance random drop is not a good way to handle a legendary. Guaranteed drops that can be used to determine exactly when you get your legendary is also not a good way. Low chance random drops of component parts is a very good way (I don't say best because that implies it can't be improved). It's something I hope we see more of in the future.

This would be a good way to do it. I really hate the idea of an extremely stupidly rare RNG legendary, especially one where the order of acquisition is directly related to how much dick (or whatever else) you suck from officers in your guild.

It would only go back to "haves versus have nots" and increase poaching and the "legendary = automatically into guild" thing.

- - - Updated - - -

I may have an unpopular opinion on this topic, but in my mind the main quality of a legendary item should be its rarity. Not how "hard" it to get, but how many people on a given server have it.

I got a better idea for "rarity" if that's what everyone wants. Require heroic kills for the components, no normal, no LFR.

Hell this is a great idea, that way the "poaching" and "free ticket" and "stacking" really disappears from heroic guilds seeing as you will only be able to get the item in the first place if you are at the top end of content.

[Cooper]

I think legendaries should be more like the Warlock's green fire quest. Something an individual can do but that is extremely difficult. Or so I've read anyway, I haven't tried it.

It just sucks that getting a legendary is basically a popularity contest. Friends with the guildmaster? Enjoy having the whole guild working for your benefit. I just don't like the idea of people being screwed out of getting a legendary just because they weren't picked by their guild.