Horde racial's are overpowered. Why isn't this being addressed?

[Ickthid]

Mogu'shan Vaults :
None

Heart of Fear :

Garalon

Terrace of Endless Springs :
None

Throne of Thunder :

Horridon
Tortos
Also works on all adds (small turtles and bats)
Megaera
Ji-kun
Also works on all hatched adds, including the Heroic-only Nest Guardian.
Iron Qon's Quilen adds

Are you convinced yet? Now you can do your own research on the other racials to complete the picture you should be getting that horde has an advantage.

This tier, maybe, but the statement was that Horde racials are superior overall, wasn't it? Next tier it may be different, and the tier after. In a raid that has no beast type bosses, how is Beast Slaying a superior ability? Flat expertise/hit bonuses allow for other, better stats, and the Alliance has an advantage in races over the Horde. Now if you can put your situational argument aside, you just might start getting that.

[Frozendekay]

Berserking isn't so strong because of the overall DPS it gives you (which is better than other races anyway btw) it's because all of that damage comes in a short window. Burst is extremely important in heroic raiding - an extra 20% haste when that one add really needs to die or perhaps in the phase where the boss takes more damage is ridiculously good. Same thing with orc racial except not as much.

Having bosses where they straight up do 5% more damage is just absolutely broken. This alone would have saved us an entire night of raiding over the course of the tier (we had a few sub 3% wipes on beast bosses). This one needs to be removed right now, or bosses changed from being beasts.

[OrcsRLame]

You can't calculate human error or uncontrollable variables (latency?) with math, and that's why the racials argument is weak.

It's not about human error or uncontrollable variables. It's about what you can control. Racials are a big red button that say free dps. If you don't push the button you're intentionally being less effective.

Have you ever wiped at or below 1% on a boss? If the answer is yes, and there was even one dps in your raid that was not a troll or orc, all things being equal, you failed when you would have otherwise killed the boss. It is no different than reducing the maximum hp of a boss from 1 million to 990,000. There's literally no difference between the boss just having 1% less hp and having better racials.

[Mormolyce]

Of course. You could always have better mechanics, better latency, use less healers, etc. That doesn't mean you wouldn't succeed more often with better racials.

Reading comprehension bro. I already mentioned everything you said. The increase from the racials are tiny, but they're enough to turn virtually any 1% or sub 1% wipe into a kill. The fact is that if you wipe below 1%, a better racial on one of the dps = dead boss. Yes, to ad nauseum, you can improve a billion million trillion other things about your raid, but the dps from a racial can still be clutch as fuck in some situations.

And yeah if you were in a world first guild then a 1% advantage would be worth it. Are you?

Of course, if you were in a world first guild then there would be no room to improve on personal performance (execution, latency, healer comp, etc) anyway since you're already the best in the world. For everyone else, there's a much greater than 1% advantage to be gained from improving your play or strategy or getting more practice with the fight. So racials don't even come into it.

[Ickthid]

It's not about human error or uncontrollable variables. It's about what you can control. Racials are a big red button that say free dps. If you don't push the button you're intentionally being less effective.

Have you ever wiped at or below 1% on a boss? If the answer is yes, and there was even one dps in your raid that was not a troll or orc, all things being equal, you failed when you would have otherwise killed the boss. It is no different than reducing the maximum hp of a boss from 1 million to 990,000. There's literally no difference between the boss just having 1% less hp and having better racials.

And you're telling me the hypothetical raid group couldn't just tweak one aspect of their performance and get it down two or three pulls later? Racials may help, I'm not arguing that, but not having a specific racial is not the bottom line reason for wiping at 1%. Even if it were, back to the OP, the Alliance has more races with expertise/hit bonuses than Horde, has a class the Horde doesn't with those same racials (Paladin), so overall, the Alliance has advantage.

[Mormolyce]

Have you ever wiped at or below 1% on a boss? If the answer is yes, and there was even one dps in your raid that was not a troll or orc, all things being equal, you failed when you would have otherwise killed the boss. It is no different than reducing the maximum hp of a boss from 1 million to 990,000. There's literally no difference between the boss just having 1% less hp and having better racials.

If you wipe at 1% then you would need that one player to do like 20% more DPS over the course of the fight, not 1%.

[Neldarie]

Time is the only resouce that really costs money. So having 1 less wipe is more than enough reason.

So whoever is saying racials dont matter is just thick and dumb and arguing just to argue because they are horde.

[re1gn1te]

Question asked and answered in same post. Now that's efficient. Really though I think the Worgen racials are the best ones in the game.

I guess it doesn't matter what you think when there actually math that says you're factually wrong.

[JimmyMcNulty]

Mogu'shan Vaults :
None

Heart of Fear :

Garalon

Terrace of Endless Springs :
None

Throne of Thunder :

Horridon
Tortos
Also works on all adds (small turtles and bats)
Megaera
Ji-kun
Also works on all hatched adds, including the Heroic-only Nest Guardian.
Iron Qon's Quilen adds

Are you convinced yet? Now you can do your own research on the other racials to complete the picture you should be getting that horde has an advantage.

Out of all the bosses there's probably only Iron Qon where the 5% COULD matter, the rest have nothing to do with dps and will/won't die only from executing the mechanics, 100% of 105% of dps (even if the whole damn raid is troll) won't change anything. Every "harder" boss in Throne of thunder was not beast so it's irrelevant and the only time Beastslaying racial would be an issue in my eyes is a pure Patchwerk fight and it being a beast.
Some races are better in certain situations, other races are better in another situation, people just don't realise that there's more to racials than just an
overal 0,5% increase in dps or whatever (like a healer above me already mentioned)

[worsthitmanNa]

Human racial is far better than anything Horde has.

Not really I mean everyone has so many ways to get out of cc with cds. They use double dps trinkets anyway. Deathknights, Mages, Elemental shamans, Warlocks, can run with double dps trinkets because they have so many cc breakers.

[Dristereau]

Are you primarily Alliance? If you are, of course the grass on the Horde's lawn looks greener. If you compare the different racials (which I did on page 3), the Alliance actually comes out ahead. They have one class ahead of the Horde, Paladin, with decent racials. Arcane Torrent and Hoof Stomp (or whatever) aren't the best for raids.

Check my Signature. Yes, primarily Alliance, but I do have four Horde Characters as well. I prefer Alliance animations and appearance, and as I've said I do like EMFH and Darkflight. Personally I think Arcane Torrent is good for interrupts, and Tauren have the Stamina bonus for Protection, so it is still something. I've not done much PVE this tier as I've only just started to get into raiding for the first time in a while, but I have done a lot of PVP on my Alliance (Mage, Paladin, Warrior and some DK) and Horde (Warlock, Priest, DK and Rogue). EMFH is great, and Darkflight is meh, unless you're against something you can chase in a Darkflight Reckstorm.

Of my Horde Characters, three Blood Elves have Arcane Torrent is beautiful, and Undead has WotF. WotF has saved my ass a lot and I do love it.

As I said, I don't care enough to think about changing my Warrior to Pandaren for the Food Bonus, or my Paladin to Tauren for increased HP, or Mage to Orc for their blood fury and pet bonus. I play my Characters because I like their appearance. I made a Blood Elf DK because I'm not a Tauren fan and not keen on Orc animations. I still think racials for Horde is great, but it wouldn't make me faction change.

Also, chill will the bigger and bigger text XD

[OrcsRLame]

And yeah if you were in a world first guild then a 1% advantage would be worth it. Are you?

Of course, if you were in a world first guild then there would be no room to improve on personal performance (execution, latency, healer comp, etc) anyway since you're already the best in the world. For everyone else, there's a much greater than 1% advantage to be gained from improving your play or strategy or getting more practice with the fight. So racials don't even come into it.

Racials do come into it though. Which was the entire point of my size 6 text which you seem to keep ignoring.

Imagine this scenario. Scrubcorecasualbro over here does 100 dps. Elitistgodsgifttoraiding over there does 1,000 dps. If they both gain 1% more dps, (racials can often be a lot more) then Scrubcorecasualbro now does 101 dps, while Elitistgodsgifttoraiding does 1,010 dps. Scrubcorecasualbro still sucks ass, but he does 1% more dps than he did before.

Just because Scrubcorecasualbro can improve in other ways, that does not magically make the dps gain from having a better racial go away. So, yesterday, Scrubcorecasualbro was out questing, and he sees a rare murloc that he wants to kill. He walks up to him and starts attacking, and after a long hard fought battle the murloc kills him and eats his guts. And he only had 4 hp left, how frustrating! Now, assume there is an alternate universe that is exactly like ours, the only difference is that Scrubcorecasualbro isn't playing a shitty race when he fights the murloc. Instead of dying and getting his guts eaten, he just barely kills the murloc. Now, a better player may not have been a hunter wearing cloth and trying to punch everything to death with no pet, but his racial still made him better than he otherwise would have been.

[frumper]

Racials do come into it though. Which was the entire point of my size 6 text which you seem to keep ignoring.

Imagine this scenario. Scrubcorecasualbro over here does 100 dps. Elitistgodsgifttoraiding over there does 1,000 dps. If they both gain 1% more dps, (racials can often be a lot more) then Scrubcorecasualbro now does 101 dps, while Elitistgodsgifttoraiding does 1,010 dps. Scrubcorecasualbro still sucks ass, but he does 1% more dps than he did before.

Just because Scrubcorecasualbro can improve in other ways, that does not magically make the dps gain from having a better racial go away. So, yesterday, Scrubcorecasualbro was out questing, and he sees a rare murloc that he wants to kill. He walks up to him and starts attacking, and after a long hard fought battle the murloc kills him and eats his guts. And he only had 4 hp left, how frustrating! Now, assume there is an alternate universe that is exactly like ours, the only difference is that Scrubcorecasualbro isn't playing a shitty race when he fights the murloc. Instead of dying and getting his guts eaten, he just barely kills the murloc. Now, a better player may not have been a hunter wearing cloth and trying to punch everything to death with no pet, but his racial still made him better than he otherwise would have been.

If they are attacking the same target then it would matter yes. If the target health/defenses scale, then 1% is still only 1% faster than the guy without the buff, which is exactly the same benefit the guy with 100dps has at his level.

[OrcsRLame]

And you're telling me the hypothetical raid group couldn't just tweak one aspect of their performance and get it down two or three pulls later? Racials may help, I'm not arguing that, but not having a specific racial is not the bottom line reason for wiping at 1%. Even if it were, back to the OP, the Alliance has more races with expertise/hit bonuses than Horde, has a class the Horde doesn't with those same racials (Paladin), so overall, the Alliance has advantage.

I never said that. In fact, the reason I quoted size 6 font at you is because I said the opposite of that and you ignored that and repeated my own point back to me.

Why do 2-3 more pulls though when you can win now?

And the expertise/hit racials aren't much dps compared to berserking/blood fury. Horde paladins are slightly weaker than Alliance paladins in terms of dps racials, that is true. That's not outweighed by Troll and Orc being so superior at everything else though.

[Mihalik]

Horde does have better PvE racials, and by a very large margin. The Orc and Troll ones really stand out. Method is a clear example of a guild that clearly stated the Horde Racials do motivate faction changes. http://www.methodwow.com/board/conte...d-Realm-Change

On the other hand when it comes to PvP, the Human racial somewhat offsets this. It is not as overpowered as it used to be, as now the PvP Trinket also provides static dps stats, unlike before when it was just a resilience stick.

http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-0-0.html
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...0-0-0-2-0.html

As you can see Humans are the predominant race in Arena, but not to the point of creating a faction imbalance. Rather the situation is that most Alliance players end up playing human, profession permitting, because the other races, racials are simply lame for PvP and PvE (for PvE Worgen being a strong exception tho when it comes to DPS, the static 1% crit is really nice for classes that run Crit based dps set ups, like Warriors.)

[OrcsRLame]

If you wipe at 1% then you would need that one player to do like 20% more DPS over the course of the fight, not 1%.

I was oversimplifying to make a point. My numbers are not indicative of actual math done on a per encounter basis, and neither are your numbers. When actually trying to math out the value of racials, you need to consider a lot of factors. 10s vs 25s, how many players are playing a sub optimal race, the classes involved, fight specific mechanics, etc. In general though, switching from the worst race to the best race for a class is a lot more than 1% more dps.

[Deleted]

You dont really need the Racials for heroic raiding sure if you want to raid top10 maybe, but how much difference is there really between horde and Alliance. And alot of alliane got real cool stuff aswell. Worgen sprint is really nice.

Yeah the 5% dps bonus from trolls was a bit much, but overall I think they dont matter that much.

They don't really matter, but if you have them just macro them up to your oh sh*t button or something for some nice burst.

I will say that trolls and orcs have a little edge maybe.

Trolls basically get a mini bloodlust, Attack and casting speed 20%, 10 seconds, 3 mins CD - It's good can probably get to use it 2 maybe 3 times an attempt on a boss depending.

As for orcs I dunno much about how much AP and SP scale so
"Melee attack power increased by 4514/Spell power increased by 2257."

This is definitely something that makes a difference, but I can imagine it only being the case if you are trying for world firsts, or server firsts.

[frumper]

I was oversimplifying to make a point. My numbers are not indicative of actual math done on a per encounter basis, and neither are your numbers. When actually trying to math out the value of racials, you need to consider a lot of factors. 10s vs 25s, how many players are playing a sub optimal race, the classes involved, fight specific mechanics, etc. In general though, switching from the worst race to the best race for a class is a lot more than 1% more dps.

That implies someone chose to play a class, then chose the race for a reason other than min/maxing. I'd say that person really can't argue about min/maxing if they started with a choice that ignored it. As the commenter you replied to mentioned, 1% of 1 player isn't much of an impact, and when you say you oversimplified it, you really should say have you ever had a boss at .05% because that is really what you're talking about.

Character creation isn't always about "optimal performance" its about much more than that. If it were then why don't we go play some MUDs and pretend what our characters look like.

[Ickthid]

I never said that. In fact, the reason I quoted size 6 font at you is because I said the opposite of that and you ignored that and repeated my own point back to me.

Why do 2-3 more pulls though when you can win now?

And the expertise/hit racials aren't much dps compared to berserking/blood fury. Horde paladins are slightly weaker than Alliance paladins in terms of dps racials, that is true. That's not outweighed by Troll and Orc being so superior at everything else though.

What you're saying is racial bonuses are buffers for bad performance. If you want to throw money at a problem to fix it, by all means, more power to you. I'm sure Blizzard won't mind. What I'm saying is specific racials are not required to be successful at raiding. If you want to be a bleeding edge guild, you probably want to throw cash at your problem to get ahead (or get those practice pulls on the PTR), while everyone else is content to do pull after pull to get the fights down.

Like I said earlier, Orc and Troll may be superior for four fights in this tier, but in the future they may not be. +1% expertise or hit allows for other, better stats, which will likely equal out to a similar increase in performance. It also depends on what classes your raid brings, so it may not even be possible for you to change Orc/Troll. How does that work then?

Also, chill will the bigger and bigger text XD

I only did that one time to try to help Laurcus realize s/he was being a bit ridiculous. Big text =/= correct opinion.

[OrcsRLame]

That implies someone chose to play a class, then chose the race for a reason other than min/maxing. I'd say that person really can't argue about min/maxing if they started with a choice that ignored it. As the commenter you replied to mentioned, 1% of 1 player isn't much of an impact, and when you say you oversimplified it, you really should say have you ever had a boss at .05% because that is really what you're talking about.

Character creation isn't always about "optimal performance" its about much more than that. If it were then why don't we go play some MUDs and pretend what our characters look like.

When did I imply any of that?

And no, I'm not talking only about 0.05% wipes. When I said I oversimplified it, what I meant, (as I explained already) is that I did not give accurate numbers, as the gist of my point did not require them. Powerful racials are much more than a 1% dps increase.