When did Garrosh became this evil?

[Kralljin]

http://www.wowhead.com/item=35941/letter-from-saurfang

Garrosh was brash and aggressive in Northrend, as he is now. The reason why things didn't go as bad as they are now are due to the help of his advisors, which as you may know, he has now killed/replaced.

It is unfortunate, then, that Hellscream employs such savage tactics. As victory approaches, Hellscream gains further justification for his methods, which in turn brings us closer to a place we have not been in many years: a dark place.

This letter tells that Garroshs savage tactics are actually quite effective but that the price for it leads down to a dark road.

Saurfang helped to defend Warsong Hold after all, Garrosh hasn't done anything wrong in here, if he would have moved in later into Northrend, they would have been even more casualties by the mists, if they would have attacked weeks later, the Horde would have no stronghold in western Northrend as there is no real safe beach to land on except for Valiance Keep.

People seriously enjoy blaming Garrosh for any military setback that the Horde suffers, even though in the great picture he isn't always the stupid, reckless, general as most people portray him.

[foxHeart]

I don't really think he's evil. Which is what's so brilliant about the storyline.

He's just trying to do what's best for his people, and has gotten misguided somewhere.

Brilliant. What. lol
The guy wants everything that's not orc dead. And if you're an orc who isn't with him, you're just like everyone else. Dead. And for what reason does he wish to achieve this? The preservation of his race? No. Conquest. He thinks slaughtering all the other races and having supremacy over Azeroth is "his" destiny. The guy is totally evil. How anyone can say otherwise is just wow.

[Dreknar20]

Maybe. What Krom'gar needed was a good PR spin to say the druids had WMDs, then Garrosh might not have dropped him off the bridge.

think its also worth mentioning that the bomb was originally meant to be used against Windshear Hold, but Gnomeish airpower made that very risky

[Cooper]

Saurfang helped to defend Warsong Hold after all, Garrosh hasn't done anything wrong in here, if he would have moved in later into Northrend, they would have been even more casualties by the mists, if they would have attacked weeks later, the Horde would have no stronghold in western Northrend as there is no real safe beach to land on except for Valiance Keep.

People seriously enjoy blaming Garrosh for any military setback that the Horde suffers, even though in the great picture he isn't always the stupid, reckless, general as most people portray him.

Here is the full dialogue between Saurfang and Garrosh in Warsong Hold:

This is the full transcript of the dialogue between Garrosh and Saurfang:

High Overlord Saurfang says: We are surrounded ... Our enemies press in from all sides, young Hellscream. The Scourge descends like locusts from the north. The Alliance holds the only secure shipping lane in this region and even that is at risk of being lost to those dreaded mists. Our only viable port for resupply is held by the Forsaken on the other side of this blasted continent! Anything our zeppelins cannot haul must be brought in by ship and travel the length of Northrend to reach us.
Garrosh Hellscream grunts.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Shipping lanes ... supplies ... You bore me to death! We need nothing more than the warrior spirit of the Horde, Saurfang! Now that we are firmly entrenched in this frozen wasteland, nothing shall stop us!
High Overlord Saurfang says: Siege engines, ammunition, heavy armor ... How do you propose to shatter the walls of Icecrown without those?
Garrosh Hellscream says: Propose? I will show you what I propose!

Garrosh crushes the figures and flag indicating Valiance Keep on the map.

Garrosh Hellscream says: There... Now we now have a shipping lane. And just for good measure...

Garrosh crushes the figures and flag indicating Valgarde and Westguard Keep.

High Overlord Saurfang says: So the prodigal son has spoken! Your father's blood runs strong in you, Hellscream. Impatient as always... Impatient and reckless. You rush headlong into all-out war without a thought of the consequences.
Garrosh Hellscream says: Do not speak to me of consequences, old one.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I drank of the same blood your father did, Garrosh. Mannoroth's cursed venom pumped through my veins as well. I drove my weapons into the bodies and minds of my enemies. And while Grom died a glorious death - freeing us all from the blood curse - he could not wipe away the terrible memory of our past. His act could not erase the horrors we committed.
High Overlord Saurfang says: The winter after the curse was lifted, hundreds of veteran orcs like me were lost to despair. Our minds were finally free, yes... Free to relive all of the unthinkable acts that we had performed under the Legion's influence.
High Overlord Saurfang nods.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I think it was the sounds of the draenei children that unnerved most of them... You never forget... Have you ever been to Jaggedswine Farm? When the swine are of age for the slaughter... It's that sound. The sound of the swine being killed... It resonates the loudest. Those are hard times for us older veterans.
Garrosh Hellscream says: But surely you cannot think that those children were born into innocence? They would have grown up and taken arms against us!
High Overlord Saurfang shakes his head.
High Overlord Saurfang says: I am not speaking solely of the children of our enemies...
High Overlord Saurfang says: I won't let you take us down that dark path again, young Hellscream. I'll kill you myself before that day comes...
Garrosh Hellscream says: How have you managed to survive for so long, Saurfang? Not fallen victim to your own memories?
High Overlord Saurfang says: I don't eat pork...
High Overlord Saurfang spits.

So yes, Garrosh has been as stupid and bloodthirsty as he is for a while now.

[Dreknar20]

Saurfang helped to defend Warsong Hold after all, Garrosh hasn't done anything wrong in here,

Well technically, moving into Northrend at all was exactly what the Lich King wanted them to do.........

[dd614]

When Blizzard realized they didn't know how to make players hate him without making him into a total caricature of a villain.

[Trassk]

you lot really need to listen to the developers, you know, the guys who actually write, plan and design this game and its story.

Kosak said in his latest interview, that garrosh was always a bad seed, and that seed just grew and grew over time. He didn't just 'BECOME EVIL' overnight, it happened progressively. Most of you just ignored the signs that were there.

Real testament to the poor judges of character many wow players have.

[GKLeatherCraft]

you lot really need to listen to the developers, you know, the guys who actually write, plan and design this game and its story.

Kosak said in his latest interview, that garrosh was always a bad seed, and that seed just grew and grew over time. He didn't just 'BECOME EVIL' overnight, it happened progressively. Most of you just ignored the signs that were there.

Real testament to the poor judges of character many wow players have.

Yeah people also seem to think that everything that happens in WoW, quests etc seem to happen all on the same day, They reference this stonelaton quest like it happend 4hours before he got the heart into the vale, People need to realise that the quests and story in WoW is over a long time span, and plenty of people change over time, and if you look, you can see it.

[Rend Blackhand]

When Blizzard decided that making a likable new Orc character was too much effort.

[Trassk]

Yeah people also seem to think that everything that happens in WoW, quests etc seem to happen all on the same day, They reference this stonelaton quest like it happend 4hours before he got the heart into the vale, People need to realise that the quests and story in WoW is over a long time span, and plenty of people change over time, and if you look, you can see it.

The funny thing is, the story developers and writers themselves reference the similarities Garrosh has to Arthas, even doing so in the novels, because, just like Arthas and his slow progression from beloved prince to deranged despot, to deathknight and right up to lich king, that happened over time too, he went from a noble prince to the most twisted bastard on azeroth. Garrosh is from the same page as Arthas, it happened over time, there was always something bad in him, but people ignored it, maybe even hoping something good could come of him over time, yet it just fanned the flame of his wicked nature.

- - - Updated - - -

When Blizzard decided that making a likable new Orc character was too much effort.

see you've just been one of those guys that don't want to listen to what the devs tell you, you just want to interpret it all for your own to make sense of it all.

[Rend Blackhand]

see you've just been one of those guys that don't want to listen to what the devs tell you, you just want to interpret it all for your own to make sense of it all.

The devs said pre cata that they would be working to make garrosh more likable and they didn't. They just decided to chuck it all for the sake of a new raid

[Trassk]

The devs said pre cata that they would be working to make garrosh more likable and they didn't. They just decided to chuck it all for the sake of a new raid

Do you ever take into account the devs will tell you something just to throw you off the scent.

[Dreknar20]

Garrosh's forces were far from failures in Northrend, don't get me wrong. But their tactics were brash, and the war had no place in an area where every fallen soldier is another warrior gained for the enemy.

Ai, but still a far cry from the claims
Plus, its a bit of a tall order to expect people to forget the years or hatrd, resentment, and even ourright warfare because 'ooo, look, undead'

[Cooper]

The devs said pre cata that they would be working to make garrosh more likable and they didn't. They just decided to chuck it all for the sake of a new raid

They did work to make Garrosh more likeable - see Stonetalon.

It didn't take. Garrosh remained unpopular. So rather than spend more time on a character that just isn't working, they decided to cut their losses and fast forward his story so they could move on to things that might actually be well-received. It wasn't just "chuck it all for the sake of a new raid."

[Leviatharan]

He's just trying to do what's best for his people, and has gotten misguided somewhere.

I'm not even sure that's accurate.
In the Stonetalon questline, he came to the defense of a tauren druid, punished officers for threatening innocent lives, and was absolutely horrified by Sylvanas' pragmatism. Sure, he was willing to do what he needed to preserve the Horde, but he was beginning to see why Thrall wanted to avert a war.
Come Mists of Pandaria, he doesn't want anything to do with Tauren (or any Horde race, including half of the orcs of the Horde), bombed the neutral settlement of Theramore and is willing to risk the whole of Pandaria/Azeroth to beat the Alliance in a conflict primarily escalated by him. He's not carving out a spot in the world for the Horde, he's remaking the world for his legacy.

He jumped from mopey and pathetic in TBC, to brash and impulsive in Wrath, to brash and honorable in Cata... to cartoonishly evil in MoP. All of his character development just dropped out from under his feet without any real catalyst.
They had the potential to turn Garrosh from facepalm-worthy jackass to a genuinely decent character who represents a coming-of-age perspective over the course of these expansions, whose aspirations of glorious battle could have died off in favor of maturity and wise leadership, but then they just destroyed his motivations for everything for the sake of killing him off.
It's not just Garrosh's character development that's disgusting either, it undermines Thrall's judgment in letting him lead the Horde, turning Thrall from a wise leader vying for peace into a complete moron over the course of one decision (two, if you include Gallywix). It undermines the entirety of the orc race's philosophies for ever listening to Garrosh. It undermines the rest of the Horde's leadership for ever putting trust in Thrall.

[DaHomieG]

So i'm lvl'ing a blood elf atm and just finished the Stonetalon questline, and I'm wandering does blizzard have just very bad character development or did I miss something?

This is the dialogue after you drop the bomb on some druid base:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4RTB5LxJ0U
Can someone explain to me how he became from this crude but honorable warchief to this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slzQOyS5TqQ

Blizzard pretty much stated that he is not corrupted or influenced in any case so wtf?

He became this evil when he saw your grammar.

[Dreknar20]

It's not just Garrosh's character development that's disgusting either, it undermines Thrall's judgment in letting him lead the Horde,

you have to remmeber when Thrall initially appointted Garrosh it was not a permenant post - it was supposed to be temporary
As such he was looking for a figure head to keep the spirits of the Horde high for a few months

But as with many things in WoW, nothing goes according to plan

[Eazy]

Metzen doesn't like to see someone taking his(Thrall) place.

[Dreknar20]

bombed the neutral settlement of Theramore

Theramore was not and never was neutral

- - - Updated - - -

They had the potential to turn Garrosh from facepalm-worthy jackass to a genuinely decent character who represents a coming-of-age perspective over the course of these expansions, whose aspirations of glorious battle could have died off in favor of maturity and wise leadership, but then they just destroyed his motivations for everything for the sake of killing him off.

Sounds like Varian's story

[Leviatharan]

Theramore was not and never was neutral

Yeah, it actually was for the most part. Jaina and Thrall had an even stronger truce going on than some of the Horde races did (to the point of being shipper-ific), and for the most part tried to stay out of the conflict between the Alliance and Horde, even trying to be a mediator between Thrall and Varian (ruined somewhat by Garrosh) and volunteering Theramore as a location for a peace summit. She only devoted herself entirely to the Alliance cause after Garrosh blew Theramore up.

It was being guarded heavily by Alliance officers because of the harbor, and nothing more.