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  1. #161
    I in honesty don't really want it back even tho I play mostly Alliance.

    It's kind of like this, if Orgrimmar and Durotar plus Echo Isles was taken over by the Alliance or another faction and the Orc and Trolls were forced out into the Barrens, I would imagine Horde players would want to return Durotar back to the Horde.

  2. #162
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Alterac? Dalaran? Stromgarde? She's grabbing more than just Lordaeron, and even in Lordaeron shes waging a genocidal war against everyone living there.
    Uh... Sylvanas has nothing to do with Alterac. It's all about the Horde fighting off the invading Stormpike. The quest-givers are even Orcs.

    Dalaran cut themselves off (like Gilneas) before flying to another continent. They abandoned their territory, effectively ceding it.

    The main Horde base in Arathi is called Hammerfall, after Orgrim who died there freeing the Orcs. Most of the NPCs there are orcs. The Forsaken base is a small camp near the wall where Trollbane gets you to find his sword. Hardly an invasion against the Alliance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    There are still Lordaeron survivors. If population size was an issue, Lordaeron belongs to the Scourge.
    The Scourge, they aren't nearly as populous as you think. They got wiped out in Dalaran, Capital City, Andorhal, and the surrounding areas. Then there's the large chunk that became Forsaken. The only area really under Scourge control is EPL.

    Again, Forsaken raise hundreds of corpses every day. It's been almost 2 years in-game since the start of Cata. The number of corpses in graveyards from which the Forsaken can recruit far exceeds any living or Scourge population of Lordaeron humans.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    A concept rubbished and trashed ingame by the Forsaken forces themselves. Even were it actually true, the Alliance believes that becoming Forsaken ends your free will.

    A Forsaken has just as much free will as any other high functioning Scourge Commander. But that still leaves him mentally shackled and compelled to serve.

    Right now, from ingame sources, the story works if the Forsaken dominate the risen. The Alliance believe that they are dominated and turned when they are raised. The Val'kyr and Forsaken know they are turned when they are raised. And the so-called Forsaken respect for and valuing of free will Blizzard has talked about out of game has been shown to be a sham on several occasions in game.

    So the question is....is Blizzard actually going to retcon all this? They might...but they haven't yet.
    Only because you want to ignore all the evidence to the contrary. There are plenty of quests that show Forsaken have free will. The Cdevs even explained why newly raised undead on the battlefield fight their former allies.

    "You are no slave, <name>. You are free to follow whatever path you choose from here."

    "Some maintain their free will, but live in constant fear and confusion. They usually run off into the woods, cowering at their own reflections. Others lose their minds completely, shambling about aimlessly. They often turn to violence, and must be destroyed."

    "Valred will be a valuable asset to the Forsaken. As for the other two... there is not much we can do. We cannot force them to join us."

    "You say she ran away? What a shame. Very well. As long as she's maintained her free will, there's still hope."

    Plus, Lord Godfrey shooting Sylvanas in the face to further his own ambitions. Also Lord Walden and Baron Ashbury fleeing to SFK with Godfrey.

    And all the other Forsaken who left to go do their own thing on their own or in other factions.


    You tried to claim that "Battle your way inside and find the holdouts! Turn them for your queen!" was "In game proof that the Forsaken are to be dominated and mind controlled." Except nothing about that quest says they are dominated and mind-controlled. There's even a previous quest I linked where you go and talk to the recently raised to convince them to join the Forsaken (turn them).

    Then in Andorhal, you are charming the newly raised undead because, as the Cdevs said, they are in a violent/frenzied state and are just feral undead at that point without free will regardless. The charming is just to keep them under control until they calm down and take advantage of their mindlessness in battle. Afterwards, they are given the same choice as any other Forsaken: "You are no slave, <name>. You are free to follow whatever path you choose from here."

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Because they are the freshest, most able to survive and end up functional. Damaged bodies can't hold onto the necromantic energies for long, nor are they as capable. There is only so much the Forsaken can do with graveyards.
    Source? Because "the val'kyr raise hundreds of corpses every day" from graveyards.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-08-31 at 08:17 PM.

  3. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Blade View Post
    I say let the humans hurl themselves against that brick wall all they want. Don't think for a second the Kal'dorei are going to join them in an unjust invasion.
    Seeing how the Kal'dorei saw the invasion of the Forsaken into Gilneas in action, I doubt they would have much qualms in invading Lordaeron.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crabby
    I'm Commander Crabby, and this is my favorite forum on the website.

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by Moon Blade View Post
    That was a defensive action, not an offensive one.
    It was a Offensive action by the Forsaken yes, a Defensive one by the Gilneans...which again proves...what?
    The Forsaken wheren't exactly saints in their attack.
    Sure they where pressured into doing it, but I sincerely doubt that's a good excuse for what they did.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crabby
    I'm Commander Crabby, and this is my favorite forum on the website.

  5. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by Northem View Post
    [*]While it is true that almost all of the Sylvanas’ Forsaken were Lordaeron citizens in live, not all citizens of Lordaeron became undead. A large number of people originally from Lordaeron fled from their homes and lands to take refuge in different locations throughout Azeroth. Most of these exiles found refuge in the Kingdom of Stormwind,
    Thats one thing i never understood... how was it even possible that "large numbers" of Lordaeranians were able to get to Stormwind, of all places. Stormwind is on the other side of the continent, they would have had to travel for years through very dangerous terrain to get there (refugees traversing the badlands ? Good luck with that). Sure a few might have got there by boat but surely not "large numbers". And even by boat, why didn't they go to Gilneas or Kul Tiras or one of the numerous seaside towns like Menethil Harbour but instead chose the furthest possible target ?

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    Uh... Sylvanas has nothing to do with Alterac. It's all about the Horde fighting off the invading Stormpike. The quest-givers are even Orcs.
    In Alterac Valley, yes. But Sylvanas is starting to marshall forces against Alterac itself.

    Dalaran cut themselves off (like Gilneas) before flying to another continent. They abandoned their territory, effectively ceding it.
    Which is why we can see Dalaran forces still there.

    The main Horde base in Arathi is called Hammerfall, after Orgrim who died there freeing the Orcs. Most of the NPCs there are orcs. The Forsaken base is a small camp near the wall where Trollbane gets you to find his sword. Hardly an invasion against the Alliance.
    Stopping an advance simply because they ran out of troops is hardly evidence of future peaceful intent. It simply means they didn't have the troops to progress further at that time.

    The Scourge, they aren't nearly as populous as you think.
    Neither are the Forsaken....lets not forget that out of the SMALL bunch that became Forsaken, a lot got crushed in the various battles and a lot of the new guys aren't from Lordaeron.

    Only because you want to ignore all the evidence to the contrary. There are plenty of quests that show Forsaken have free will. The Cdevs even explained why newly raised undead on the battlefield fight their former allies.
    Theres one mention of the Forsaken having free will in Deathknell and its downhill all the way after that. As for what the CDev said....we have ingame evidence to the contrary. If the Devs want to retcon it, they can but they hold themselves to the same standard of "Canon in the media trumpsall" most other devs do.

    As it is, the Forsaken DO have a great deal of free will. But they are under - should we call it a compulsion, or would geas be better? - to serve Sylvanas.

    Plus, Lord Godfrey shooting Sylvanas in the face to further his own ambitions. Also Lord Walden and Baron Ashbury fleeing to SFK with Godfrey.
    The nice thing about this is that such control can be broken. That, after all, is why the Forsaken exist.

    Source? Because "the val'kyr raise hundreds of corpses every day" from graveyards.
    Arthas.

    EJL

  7. #167
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    In Alterac Valley, yes. But Sylvanas is starting to marshall forces against Alterac itself.
    Source?

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Which is why we can see Dalaran forces still there.
    Random forces that got stuck outside the shield or left behind... and Ambermill isn't even Dalaran territory. The stuff around Dalaran crater has nothing to do with invading Daralan or is just about some guy's personal vengeance.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Stopping an advance simply because they ran out of troops is hardly evidence of future peaceful intent. It simply means they didn't have the troops to progress further at that time.
    You're just making assumptions based on nothing. Arathi is a Horde campaign. Forsaken just do some small-time missions there that have nothing to do with invasion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Neither are the Forsaken....lets not forget that out of the SMALL bunch that became Forsaken, a lot got crushed in the various battles and a lot of the new guys aren't from Lordaeron.
    Again you ignore the hundreds raised every day for the past 2 years in-game.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Theres one mention of the Forsaken having free will in Deathknell and its downhill all the way after that. As for what the CDev said....we have ingame evidence to the contrary. If the Devs want to retcon it, they can but they hold themselves to the same standard of "Canon in the media trumpsall" most other devs do.
    The 1 mention... like the 4 quests I just linked and you ignored? Or those that leave the Forsaken to join other factions?

    Your evidence to the contrary is circumstantial at best. One of them is completely explained by the Cdevs. A fact you conveniently ignore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    As it is, the Forsaken DO have a great deal of free will. But they are under - should we call it a compulsion, or would geas be better? - to serve Sylvanas.
    Because they pledged allegiance and follow orders? I guess all the soldiers in the Alliance and Horde are under so-called compulsion or geas as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    The nice thing about this is that such control can be broken. That, after all, is why the Forsaken exist.
    Yes, the Forsaken exist because they are free of such control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Talen View Post
    Arthas.
    ...Arthas didn't have any trouble raising skeletons.
    Last edited by Aquamonkey; 2013-09-01 at 03:08 AM.

  8. #168
    The Lightbringer Littleraven's Avatar
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    i think most people want it back just because it was one of the (if not the) most powerful human kingdoms before the scourge plague and arthas wiped it out. that and WC3 nostalgia.

    personally it would be awesome if it was fully cleansed of the plague but as long as WoW exists it wont happen simply because the forsaken would no longer have a home.

  9. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by Yriel View Post
    Thats one thing i never understood... how was it even possible that "large numbers" of Lordaeranians were able to get to Stormwind, of all places. Stormwind is on the other side of the continent, they would have had to travel for years through very dangerous terrain to get there (refugees traversing the badlands ? Good luck with that). Sure a few might have got there by boat but surely not "large numbers". And even by boat, why didn't they go to Gilneas or Kul Tiras or one of the numerous seaside towns like Menethil Harbour but instead chose the furthest possible target ?
    From Southshore, there was supposed to be a port there. That's how Stormwind's refuges got to Lordaeron when Orcs sacked it.

  10. #170
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heldamon View Post
    From Southshore, there was supposed to be a port there. That's how Stormwind's refuges got to Lordaeron when Orcs sacked it.
    But why go to Stormwind instead of a closer Alliance kingdom? That place had just barely been rebuilt after being completely destroyed.

  11. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by Snuffe View Post
    Calia Menethil says hello!. Are you for real? Lordearon city was the main faction/the ceneter of the old alliance,

    Calia Menethil comes back and ask the alliance for help to take back HER (rightfully) kingdom, so as to counter it, the horde as no claim at all. Whatever you say so is it still the Menethil bloodlines kingdom.
    Her Kingdom? I'm sure her undead subjects (rightful citizens) would reject her and promptly devour her corpse.

  12. #172
    I would like it back, I would like high elves playable and I would like a lot more focus on the forsaken story.

  13. #173
    First of all it is a desire driven by emotions: Lordaeron was a human kingdom that players of the strategy games, in a sense, lived in. If you liked the humans particularly, you may have even considered it 'home.' And it is natural to want your home back, isn't it?

    Secondly, it is, in a way, a matter of honour. When Stormwind was taken by the orcs in WarCraft 1, the kingdom of Lordaeron did all it could to help Stormwind's citizens, and to help them reclaim their kingdom. Now that the situation is reversed, isn't that the most logical thing for Stormwind to do as well? What is more, Stormwind's current king, Wrynn, was a fugitive of the siege of Stormwind during the first war; he knows first-hand what it is like to lose your home.

    Thirdly, there is a very practical reason: similarly to Syria beng a perfect gateway to the East for Western countries in our days, Lordaeron is a perfect gateway to the northern parts of the Eastern kingdoms. Its value is immense from a strategic point of view for the Alliance.

    And to seal the deal: Sylvanas and the Forsaken are the most unstable element of the Horde, perhaps even worse than Garrosh and his followers. Such a potential threat is hardly one to just let be.

    Of course, the game requiring a 'safe' approach to faction balance, so as not to upset or alienate/inconvenience players, something drastic is almost guaranteed not to happen, in World of WarCraft at least. What is more, the dramatic value of a lost homeland, now filled with terror, is quite high. So I doubt that the writers at Blizzard would want such potential to be wasted. Although I don't think they have done much of a good job in tapping that potential up to now. Not blaming them of course since such a story would require focus on just the Forsaken, at a time when the game prefers to focus on the two bigger factions: the Alliance and the Horde.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2013-09-01 at 11:08 AM.

  14. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    This point can be turned around. Horde managed to defeat all that stuff yet they cant defeat alliance?
    No the horde can't. what leadership do they have? They're destroying their capital because of a tyrannical take over. Their one great leader is now an aspect.

    The alliance is on their front door. A perfect time for the alliance to destory org, the trolls and their corny little island, and to take back much of northern kalimdor. From there full out assault on gilneas, alterac, hillsbrad, wpl.

    Or a hold on hostilities until the orcs can be shipped through the portal back to outland. that's where they're from after all. gtfo.

    that's interesting story telling to me. A vast conflict, political ties and shifts, expulsion, war war war. Not farming for meat and stone to help your enemy defeat his enemy simply then to turn around with zombies in your northern lands left unchallenged.

    pish posh to blizzard story telling.

  15. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by Caliph View Post
    No the horde can't. what leadership do they have? They're destroying their capital because of a tyrannical take over. Their one great leader is now an aspect.

    The alliance is on their front door. A perfect time for the alliance to destory org, the trolls and their corny little island, and to take back much of northern kalimdor. From there full out assault on gilneas, alterac, hillsbrad, wpl.

    Or a hold on hostilities until the orcs can be shipped through the portal back to outland. that's where they're from after all. gtfo.

    that's interesting story telling to me. A vast conflict, political ties and shifts, expulsion, war war war. Not farming for meat and stone to help your enemy defeat his enemy simply then to turn around with zombies in your northern lands left unchallenged.

    pish posh to blizzard story telling.
    Alliance isnt capable of securing its own territory, what makes you think they can suddenly dominate entire world.

  16. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vinictus View Post
    Her Kingdom? I'm sure her undead subjects (rightful citizens) would reject her and promptly devour her corpse.
    Then they must be purged for what monsters they are! And after that, get so actual living beings to move back

  17. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by Aquamonkey View Post
    But why go to Stormwind instead of a closer Alliance kingdom? That place had just barely been rebuilt after being completely destroyed.
    I suppose it was the second biggest place of Human power, a new build fortress with a known King that had a debt in case of offering shelter to refuges from the past.

  18. #178
    The Insane Aquamonkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heldamon View Post
    I suppose it was the second biggest place of Human power, a new build fortress with a known King that had a debt in case of offering shelter to refuges from the past.
    How can it be the 2nd biggest place of human power when it got so utterly demolished and so many of its people killed in the 1st War? There are closer human kingdoms that hardly took any damage from the 2nd War.

  19. #179
    I don't know, but I get a hint that Sylvanas will not much longer take all the bickering from the Horde and in the end she might be the last one standing on both sides. It's highly unlikely that the Alliance will take back any territory, it's much more likely that Sylvanas (not the horde) will push much deeper into theirs until there is nowhere to push anymore.

  20. #180
    Oh please, Sylvanas has been cruising toward raid boss status since late Wrath.

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