Thread: Tinker Class

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  1. #681
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    LoL! It's not possible at all. Blizzard isn't going to rehash an entire expansion. Also, we kind of exterminated Demon Hunters last time we ran through Outland.
    Depends on what you're exactly talking about. What degree of 'rehash' are you talking about? In the broadest terms, revisiting the Legion at all could be considered 'Rehash', because we've already fought demons on a different planet. If we revisit a revamped Outland as a platform to launch a campaign against other worlds, would you also consider that 'rehash'?

    People like the Burning Legion as an enemy.

    Then they aren't Demon Hunters.
    Sure they are. Demon Hunters are whatever Blizzard defines them to be.

    Actually there's legion tech all over the place. Let's also not forget that the only way we could possibly defeat Sageras is with Titan Technology.
    So Tinkers are based on Titan technology now? I don't see how that would be relevant to Tinkers. It confuses the situation even more.

  2. #682
    The Patient Hengwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    LoL! It's not possible at all. Blizzard isn't going to rehash an entire expansion. Also, we kind of exterminated Demon Hunters last time we ran through Outland.
    You exterminated Illidari Demon Hunters. But there are still some left, and they're true to their original cause - Altruis the Sufferer, for example.
    None of the Tinker abilities exist in Engineering, so that's false.
    Are you saying that Mekkatorque isn't a Tinker, just because he got no WC3 unit spells?

    Stop with this "must have an ability" bs, one ability doesn't mean anything, unless in your opinion rogue = demon hunter and warlock = demon hunter.

  3. #683
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by But I Hate You All View Post
    Cata says hi
    How in the world was Cataclysm a rehash?

    Ummm if blizzard called them Demon Hunters they would be such
    I seriously doubt Blizzard would create some random class and label it "Demon Hunters". I seriously doubt Blizzard would even bring a class into the game called "Demon Hunters".

    Same archetype, Also goblins have the rocks
    It's not the same archetype because Engineering isn't a class.

    Also you kinda flip flop on what tinkers are between WC3, Titan Tech, Any Tech, BL Tech.
    Technology class.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Depends on what you're exactly talking about. What degree of 'rehash' are you talking about? In the broadest terms, revisiting the Legion at all could be considered 'Rehash', because we've already fought demons on a different planet. If we revisit a revamped Outland as a platform to launch a campaign against other worlds, would you also consider that 'rehash'?
    Yep. There's a variety of ways you can do a Legion expansion, and the BL is inevitable. However, Demon Hunters don't come with the BL by default. In order to do Demon Hunters, you need to explain their proliferation. That would have worked in TBC because we had a reason for their proliferation. Currently we don't have one because we wiped out 90% of them the last time we ran across them in significant numbers.

    People like the Burning Legion as an enemy.
    I'm not saying a BL expansion isn't happening. I'm saying that BL doesn't automatically equate to a Demon Hunter class.

    Sure they are. Demon Hunters are whatever Blizzard defines them to be.
    And Blizzard has already defined them. Along with farming out their abilities to other classes, and giving their theme to Warlocks.

    So Tinkers are based on Titan technology now? I don't see how that would be relevant to Tinkers. It confuses the situation even more.
    A technology class being linked to in-game technology confuses you?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    You exterminated Illidari Demon Hunters. But there are still some left, and they're true to their original cause - Altruis the Sufferer, for example.
    The point is that we've already done this dance. We had a legion expansion, and we had lots of Demon Hunters. No Demon Hunter class. So yeah, Demon Hunters have far less of a chance to show up as a class than Tinkers.

    Are you saying that Mekkatorque isn't a Tinker, just because he got no WC3 unit spells?
    Mekkatorque is a faction leader. Faction leaders tend to have different sets of abilities, even if they're part of in-game classes.

    Stop with this "must have an ability" bs, one ability doesn't mean anything, unless in your opinion rogue = demon hunter and warlock = demon hunter.
    Every other applicable class has their abilities from WC3. It stands to reason that DHs have to follow suit.

  4. #684
    The Patient Hengwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The point is that we've already done this dance. We had a legion expansion, and we had lots of Demon Hunters. No Demon Hunter class. So yeah, Demon Hunters have far less of a chance to show up as a class than Tinkers.
    The main enemy of TBC was Illidan and his lieutenants. Burning Legion shown up only in SWP. -If- there would be an expac about BL return, demons would be the main enemy - and that would actually make restoration of Demon Hunters make much more sense than doing it in TBC. Tinkers have nothing to do with BL invasion.
    Mekkatorque is a faction leader. Faction leaders tend to have different sets of abilities, even if they're part of in-game classes.
    Nice double standards, buddy You rather pull out yet another "Teriz's rule of design" noone else knows about, than admit you're wrong.

    Tinker isn't about some ability, but about fitting an archetype of crazy inventor with various gadgets. Mekkatorque fits that archetype. So do Engineers.
    Every other applicable class has their abilities from WC3. It stands to reason that DHs have to follow suit.
    Shame that GC doesn't agree with you. But you know better anyway.

  5. #685
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    Nice double standards, buddy You rather pull out yet another "Teriz's rule of design" noone else knows about, than admit you're wrong.
    Where an I wrong? Faction Leaders have abilities that the classes don't, even though they're technically part of that class.

    Also Tinkers aren't a class yet.

    Tinker isn't about some ability, but about fitting an archetype of crazy inventor with various gadgets. Mekkatorque fits that archetype. So do Engineers.
    You seem to miss the point, so let me reiterate; Every WoW class has ties to WC3. Every single one. Every WoW class that is pulled directly from WC3 has all of the associated abilities from its WC3 equivalent. Example, Druids have the associated Druid WC3 abilities, and Shaman have the associated WC3 Shaman abilities. Neither class shares those associated abilities with any other class.

    The reason you can't say that Engineering makes you a Tinker class is because Engineering doesn't possess the WC3 abilities that the WoW Tinker should/would have (its also a profession that doesnt operate like a class anyway). The reason your silly little Mekkatorque argument doesn't work is because faction leaders have class abilities along with unique abilities, and Tinkers aren't a class (yet).

    The reason why Demon Hunters won't be a class is because those WC3 abilities that every WoW class posseses have already been farmed out to other classes.

    Hope that helps.

    Shame that GC doesn't agree with you. But you know better anyway.
    The real shame is that that had nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-08 at 09:42 PM.

  6. #686
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I'm not saying a BL expansion isn't happening. I'm saying that BL doesn't automatically equate to a Demon Hunter class.
    Course it doesn't automatically equate that. It only increases likelyhood, and that's what you've been pointing out, right? That it's not impossible for a Demon Hunter class, but it's unlikely. Well if a BL expansion was never going to happen, that likelyhood would remain low; but the fact that one is coming, and the fact that Demon Hunters are still in demand...

    And Blizzard has already defined them. Along with farming out their abilities to other classes, and giving their theme to Warlocks.
    Trivial. New class, new abilities. Demon Hunter has no abilities yet because it does not yet exist. Warcraft 3 abilities have no bearing on WoW classes. If Warcraft 3 really had any direct impact on WoW, Paladins would still have 'Ressurection' instead of Priests.

    A technology class being linked to in-game technology confuses you?
    Relating supernatural Titan tech to Steampunk confuses me, yes. You may as well say a Naga expansion will have playable Dragons because they are both reptilian.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-09-08 at 09:52 PM.

  7. #687
    Stood in the Fire Darkfie1d's Avatar
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    What good is the Demon Hunter class when it's lore-wise only a Night Elf thing with a very few exception Blood elves demon hunters? Tinker is the way to go if you ask me.

    "Rather than love, than money, than fame, give me truth."

  8. #688
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Course it doesn't automatically equate that. It only increases likelyhood, and that's what you've been pointing out, right? That it's not impossible for a Demon Hunter class, but it's unlikely. Well if a BL expansion was never going to happen, that likelyhood would remain low; but the fact that one is coming, and the fact that Demon Hunters are still in demand...
    The other problem being that we already had an expansion based on Demon Hunters.

    Trivial. New class, new abilities. Demon Hunter has no abilities yet because it does not yet exist. Warcraft 3 abilities have no bearing on WoW classes. If Warcraft 3 really had any direct impact on WoW, Paladins would still have 'Ressurection' instead of Priests.
    Uh they do. Which is why every WoW class has a direct tie to WC3 heroes and units.



    Relating supernatural Titan tech to Steampunk confuses me, yes. You may as well say a Naga expansion will have playable Dragons because they are both reptilian.
    Except technology in WoW doesn't just include Steampunk. It also includes supernatural/magic technology. Even the Tinker hero unit had the ability to transform itself into a machine and back again at will.

    Titan technology has been shown to perform similar feats.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-08 at 10:06 PM.

  9. #689
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The other problem being that we already had an expansion based on Demon Hunters.
    The expansion wasn't based on Demon Hunters. It was based on Outland and the inhabitants within. The Sethekk, Naga, Draenei, Ogres and Demons of the Burning Legion each had more presence than Illidan's Demon Hunters. If anything, I would love to see the return of Altruis, perhaps as a Demon Hunter trainer.

    Also, we had Death Knights in Naxxramas. Playable Death Knights were introduced their respectively themed expansion.

    Uh they do. Which is why every WoW class has a direct tie to WC3 heroes and units.
    Not to the extent that it prevents a new WoW class from existing. WC3 heroes/units are tied to WoW by theme; they don't direct final judgement on the creation of any new class. Remember, even Runemaster was a class that was considered, and there are no Runemasters in Warcraft history. They solely exist within the Warcraft RPG books.

    Except technology in WoW doesn't just include Steampunk. It also includes supernatural/magic technology. Even the Tinker hero unit had the ability to transform itself into a machine and back again at will.

    Titan technology has been shown to perform similar feats.
    What is your point? That Tinkers will use Titan technology, or that Titans will create a Tinker class? Seems pretty far-fetched if you ask me. Give me Steampunk Tinkers, not whatever crazy Titan thing you're suggesting here.

    ----

    What good is the Demon Hunter class when it's lore-wise only a Night Elf thing with a very few exception Blood elves demon hunters? Tinker is the way to go if you ask me.
    Nothing limits more races becoming Demon Hunters if they opened up to training the Alliance and the Horde. They are radicals who give up their own cultures, choosing to live a solitary life dedicated to hunting demons. This means even altruistic races like Draenei have the possibility of becoming Demon Hunters.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-09-08 at 10:33 PM.

  10. #690
    The Patient Hengwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Where an I wrong? Faction Leaders have abilities that the classes don't, even though they're technically part of that class.

    Also Tinkers aren't a class yet.

    You seem to miss the point, so let me reiterate; Every WoW class has ties to WC3. Every single one. Every WoW class that is pulled directly from WC3 has all of the associated abilities from its WC3 equivalent. Example, Druids have the associated Druid WC3 abilities, and Shaman have the associated WC3 Shaman abilities. Neither class shares those associated abilities with any other class.

    The reason you can't say that Engineering makes you a Tinker class is because Engineering doesn't possess the WC3 abilities that the WoW Tinker should/would have (its also a profession that doesnt operate like a class anyway). The reason your silly little Mekkatorque argument doesn't work is because faction leaders have class abilities along with unique abilities, and Tinkers aren't a class (yet).

    The reason why Demon Hunters won't be a class is because those WC3 abilities that every WoW class posseses have already been farmed out to other classes.

    Hope that helps.
    Doesn't change the fact that Mekkatorque is a tinker and has nothing to do with WC3 tinker, except for general theme, which is also shared by engineering profession. Yet you have no problem of accepting it for Mekkatorque, but can't accept it for engineering. Double standards. You follow even your own logic only when it suits your argument.

    The real shame is that that had nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
    Read it again. GC says that blindly following some traditions, patterns and suchlike is an obstacle, and not any help. So even if they would exist, they're to be broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfie1d View Post
    What good is the Demon Hunter class when it's lore-wise only a Night Elf thing with a very few exception Blood elves demon hunters? Tinker is the way to go if you ask me.
    One would think that with BL invading Azeroth members of other races might fancy to try their luck at Demon Hunting themselves. Desperate times call for desperate measures.

  11. #691
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    The expansion wasn't based on Demon Hunters. It was based on Outland and the inhabitants within. The Sethekk, Naga, Draenei, Ogres and Demons of the Burning Legion each had more presence than Illidan's Demon Hunters. If anything, I would love to see the return of Altruis, perhaps as a Demon Hunter trainer.

    Also, we had Death Knights in Naxxramas. Playable Death Knights were introduced their respectively themed expansion.
    Naxx was one raid. TBC was completely about Demon Hunters, the Burning Legion, and Outland. Hell, Illidan was in the opening cinematic.

    Again, it is highly unlikely that Blizzard will do yet another another Burning Legion expansion with a high population of Demon Hunters. It sort of doesn't help that we killed Demon Hunters during that expansion, and Blizzard actively farmed out Demon Hunter abilities to other classes.

    Not to the extent that it prevents a new WoW class from existing. WC3 heroes/units are tied to WoW by theme; they don't direct final judgement on the creation of any new class.
    Then why is every WoW class tied directly to WC3? Why would Blizzard stop doing what they've been doing for 11 classes, and suddenly stop with the 12th?

    Remember, even Runemaster was a class that was considered, and there are no Runemasters in Warcraft history. They solely exist within the Warcraft RPG books.
    Let me know when the Runemaster class pops up in WoW. Then I'll believe that fairy tale.


    What is your point? That Tinkers will use Titan technology, or that Titans will create a Tinker class?
    To make you less confused about a technology class using technology.

    Seems pretty far-fetched if you ask me. Give me Steampunk Tinkers, not whatever crazy Titan thing you're suggesting here.
    My point is that a technology class can use supernatural technology, because the WC3 Tinker hero has shown the ability to use supernatural technology. And like I said before; All WoW classes are tied to WC3.

    Every single one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    Doesn't change the fact that Mekkatorque is a tinker and has nothing to do with WC3 tinker, except for general theme, which is also shared by engineering profession. Yet you have no problem of accepting it for Mekkatorque, but can't accept it for engineering. Double standards. You follow even your own logic only when it suits your argument.
    Already explained. Oh, and you can't play as Mekkatorque.

    Read it again. GC says that blindly following some traditions, patterns and suchlike is an obstacle, and not any help. So even if they would exist, they're to be broken.
    I don't know how you got that from this;

    Hamilton ‏@dphamilton85 21 Jun
    @Ghostcrawler Do you ever wish you could redo the class system? Drop/add classes, redo roles,etc?

    ‏@Ghostcrawler
    @dphamilton85 Every day. We struggle with expectations, tradition, precedent and that's-the-way-it's-always-been constantly.
    In any case, they haven't broken it after nearly 10 years and 11 classes.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-08 at 11:04 PM.

  12. #692
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Again, it is highly unlikely that Blizzard will do yet another another Burning Legion expansion with a high population of Demon Hunters. It sort of doesn't help that we killed Demon Hunters during that expansion, and Blizzard actively farmed out Demon Hunter abilities to other classes.
    You don't need a high population of Demon Hunters, you just need a lot of Demons to justify the new class.

    All players could be fresh recruits trained by the OG Night Elf Demon Hunters, the ones not trained under Illidan's post-demonic regime. The players go through a questing zone that goes through a bunch of trials, possibly themed on gaining a new runic tattoo to allow them to absorb different types of demonic/supernatural energy; and culminating to the ritual blinding and Spectral Sight.

    Since all the player characters are a new order of Demon Hunters trained by the originals, this can be opened up to many more classes and doesn't need to be made into a Hero class. These guys have nothing to do with the Illidari, who are bad guys anyways. It's like what Garrosh's True Horde, just because the Kor'kron Orcs are bad doesn't mean playable Orcs are evil.

    Then why is every WoW class tied directly to WC3? Why would Blizzard stop doing what they've been doing for 11 classes, and suddenly stop with the 12th?
    No one said 12th class is the last.

    Let me know when the Runemaster class pops up in WoW. Then I'll believe that fairy tale.
    My point is that a technology class can use supernatural technology, because the WC3 Tinker hero has shown the ability to use supernatural technology. And like I said before; All WoW classes are tied to WC3.
    So you're saying Tinkers can use Titan technology. This must be one of the fairy tales you were talking about.

    There is a reason why Engineering is separated into subclasses such as Gnomish and Goblin Engineering. Just because you are an engineer doesn't mean you are automatically able to use the technology from any and all races. It's why Gnomes and Goblins compete with each other. Saying that all types of Technology is available to the Tinker makes them unbelievable and uninteresting. You're no longer talking about Tinkers, you're talking about Macguyver.
    Last edited by Thimagryn; 2013-09-08 at 11:13 PM.

  13. #693
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    You don't need a high population of Demon Hunters, you just need a lot of Demons to justify the new class.
    We had both in TBC. No Demon Hunter class. Now your argument is that Blizzard is going to do another expansion with lots of Demons and Demon Hunters, and introduce a DH class after farming off the DH's abilities for several years?

    Okay.... That's believable.

    No one said 12th class is the last.
    Based on armor, class type, remaining WC3 heroes, remaining unique archetypes, and the game's age, it very well could be.


    So you're saying Tinkers can use Titan technology. This must be one of the fairy tales you were talking about.
    I'm saying that Tinkers have shown that they can use supernatural/magical tech that can do what Titan technology has done in the past.

  14. #694
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    Why is there so much tunnel vision on either tinker or DH it could be another class i for one hope on a ranged based class this time now we had 2 times melee classes.

  15. #695
    The Patient Hengwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Already explained. Oh, and you can't play as Mekkatorque.
    Doesn't matter. Mekkatorque is an excellent example that Tinker/Engineer can still be easily recognizable as a Tinker without the "but must have an ability!" silliness. You just started with wrong assumption, while it is much simpler really. But like every fanatical follower of an idea you're blind to anything that could question your dogma. You just will believe in your "must have ability!" rule no matter what, even if Tinkers and Alchemists are clearly represnted in WoW, even if Demon Hunters are not. You rather add on top of it even more silliness, than just give up.

    ONE ABILITY DOES NOT MAKE A CLASS.

  16. #696
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baline View Post
    Why is there so much tunnel vision on either tinker or DH it could be another class i for one hope on a ranged based class this time now we had 2 times melee classes.
    Because both were WC3 hero units, and have pretty strong ties to the game. The difference is that one is farmed out completely to various classes, and its theme has been thoroughly transferred to another class. While the other still has all of its core abilities intact, and would be different than any existing class in the game.

    And I agree that the next class should DEFINITELY be ranged, or at least have some ranged specs. Way too much melee right now.

  17. #697
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because both were WC3 hero units, and have pretty strong ties to the game. The difference is that one is farmed out completely to various classes, and its theme has been thoroughly transferred to another class. While the other still has all of its core abilities intact, and would be different than any existing class in the game.

    And I agree that the next class should DEFINITELY be ranged, or at least have some ranged specs. Way too much melee right now.
    then its settled a ranged based class in next expansion ^^

  18. #698
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by baline View Post
    then its settled a ranged based class in next expansion ^^
    I don't know about next expansion. However, I would be amazed if the next class wasn't ranged. Both DKs and Monks were completely melee, and I can only believe that a lot of people feel the way you do and are pining for a new physical ranged class in WoW.

  19. #699
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    Because both were WC3 hero units, and have pretty strong ties to the game. The difference is that one is farmed out completely to various classes, and its theme has been thoroughly transferred to another class. While the other still has all of its core abilities intact, and would be different than any existing class in the game.

    And I agree that the next class should DEFINITELY be ranged, or at least have some ranged specs. Way too much melee right now.
    Sea Witch - Forked Lightning, Frost Arrows, Mana Shield, Tornado
    Alchemist - Healing Spray, Chemical Rage, Acid Bomb, Transmute

    Have the same chance as Tinker

  20. #700
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by But I Hate You All View Post
    Sea Witch - Forked Lightning, Frost Arrows, Mana Shield, Tornado
    Alchemist -Healing Spray, Chemical Rage, Acid Bomb, Transmute
    The sea witch wouldn't work for a variety of reasons. Here's 3 of them;

    1. The name. The male version of witch is warlock.
    2. Its magic based. All ranged weapons in WoW are agility based.
    3. Significant overlap with Hunters, Mages, and Shaman.

    The Alchemist wouldn't work either because Monks took their crafting method. The Alchemist hero is more than likely going to be folded into a Tinker class.

    Also if anyone is curious as to how a Tinker could be physical range;




    Problem solved.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-08 at 11:56 PM.

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