Thread: Tinker Class

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  1. #901
    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    It's all relevant to a Playable Demon Hunter class. Those conflicts arise when faced with the overarching problem people are wary of, that being "They're too similar to Warlocks".

    If you consider lore, all Death Knight NPCs are Death Knights. The lore allows a wide range to exist, from Teron Gorefiend to Baron Rivendare to the 4 Horsemen to Arthas. The DK player class is also a Death Knight in lore. Any discussion between Death Knights and conflicts with other player classes will exclusively be tied to the player class, regardless of what any other NPC can or can not do.

    The same exists here. When we talk about Demon Hunters and lore, we are talking about what is relevant to the potential Player class, not what any NPC represents. NPCs have absolutely no bearing on a player class, and if they use Shadow magic or summon Demons, that is indicative of that NPC.

    I understand your problems with this, since the whole idea of a Demon Hunter player class is nebulous. The criteria and lore can change to suit whatever needs to make it plausible, and that seems biased. That is the point. The very concept of the Demon Hunter class does not yet exist, and is not yet defined. It is by this very reason that it should not be put up to comparison with any existing WoW class, such as saying it's too similar to Warlocks or Rogues; or that they are limited because their abilities from Warcraft 3 have been given to other classes.

    If you look at the two added classes as any example, Death Knights and Monks have no relatable NPCs that they were based off of. Their lore is entirely based on their own, separate from every existing NPC that came before them. There is no reason for Illidan or any other Demon Hunter NPC to indicate of how a Player class would be represented in the game. The class must represent its own identity, and if the issue comes into conflict with any other idea such as being too similar to Warlocks, it is plausible to change or accomodate that conflict. That is why there is plausibility to exist.
    My problem with this has nothing to do with a Demon Hunter player class. It's that you're so desperate to prove that they're dissimilar to warlocks that you're hurling the baby out with the bathwater. Take everything reminiscent of a warlock out of the class concept and you're left with something that looks nothing like a Demon Hunter but does bear an awfully suspicious resemblance to a rogue with a nasty RP habit.

    Also, Monks had no NPCs at all to base their moves off of. Death Knights, however, are an amalgamation of several Scourge mobs and NPCs, including the death knight, necromancer, crypt lord, lich, gargoyle and so on, along with a little bit of the runemaster. Dancing Rune Weapon came from trash mobs in Naxx, as did Bone Shield. They got Death and Decay from the Lich, Unholy Blight from the Crypt Lord, Asphyxiate from Deathbringer Saurfang, Remorseless Winter and Soul Reaper directly from the Lich King boss fight. Oh yes, and they had Army of the Dead and Death Pact in common with Baron Rivendare, as well as what became their auras. These are only examples. Granted, there is a lot in there that's original. But to say that they have no similarities to anything that was already in the game is just not true.

  2. #902
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    And why does a Demon Hunter class need those spells? They don't. They can carry their own weight without any of those spells, because people would be familiar with the class identity regardless of what abilities they would or would not have.
    They same reason Monks needed Brewmaster abilities. That is the Warcraft version of that class. If they don't have those abilities, then they have no connection to the game universe.

    If abilities defined a class, Rogue would not exist in WoW, because there were no Rogues or Rogue abilities in Warcraft 3. Unless you are saying Rogues are Demon Hunters, Blademasters and Wardens.
    Oh yes there were;

    http://classic.battle.net/war3/neutr...ts.shtml#rogue

    Its abilities; Hide and Evasion. The Assassin version had Envenomed Weapons.

    They combined those units with other units and abilities to create an Assassin/thief class.

  3. #903
    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    My problem with this has nothing to do with a Demon Hunter player class. It's that you're so desperate to prove that they're dissimilar to warlocks that you're hurling the baby out with the bathwater. Take everything reminiscent of a warlock out of the class concept and you're left with something that looks nothing like a Demon Hunter but does bear an awfully suspicious resemblance to a rogue with a nasty RP habit.

    Also, Monks had no NPCs at all to base their moves off of. Death Knights, however, are an amalgamation of several Scourge mobs and NPCs, including the death knight, necromancer, crypt lord, lich, gargoyle and so on, along with a little bit of the runemaster. Dancing Rune Weapon came from trash mobs in Naxx, as did Bone Shield. They got Death and Decay from the Lich, Unholy Blight from the Crypt Lord, Asphyxiate from Deathbringer Saurfang, Remorseless Winter and Soul Reaper directly from the Lich King boss fight. Oh yes, and they had Army of the Dead and Death Pact in common with Baron Rivendare, as well as what became their auras. These are only examples. Granted, there is a lot in there that's original. But to say that they have no similarities to anything that was already in the game is just not true.
    Baron Rivendare draws from the same source that the Player DK does. That is why their abilities are similar; just as why the current Demon Hunter NPCs and Playable Warlocks are similar, they draw from the same sources - Warcraft 3 Demon Hunter.

    It's not a matter of bending backwards to prove dissimilarity, it's advocating plausibility through the fact that the core concept of any new class is free form, and can be altered to accomodate any conflicting situation. Would Playable Demon Hunters still relate to the NPCs? Yes. Does this mean they have to use Shadow spells or summon demons which conflict with the Warlock class? No.

  4. #904
    Also, Monks had no NPCs at all to base their moves off of. Death Knights, however, are an amalgamation of several Scourge mobs and NPCs, including the death knight, necromancer, crypt lord, lich, gargoyle and so on, along with a little bit of the runemaster. Dancing Rune Weapon came from trash mobs in Naxx, as did Bone Shield. They got Death and Decay from the Lich, Unholy Blight from the Crypt Lord, Asphyxiate from Deathbringer Saurfang, Remorseless Winter and Soul Reaper directly from the Lich King boss fight. Oh yes, and they had Army of the Dead and Death Pact in common with Baron Rivendare, as well as what became their auras. These are only examples. Granted, there is a lot in there that's original. But to say that they have no similarities to anything that was already in the game is just not true.
    There were monks in SM (woth warrior bleeds!!)
    And talking about DKs: Yeah, they took some skills from scourge armys and they had an awesome raid full of Dks and friends to steal all his abilities too, but logically they take only the skills that fit their theme. (see my other post).
    They can do the same with DH and Black Temple. A lot of mobs (infernals, shyvaras, fel hunters, fel-orcs/hunters/whatever, etc...) and do the same. If the 4 basic skills are taken, maybe they need to replace them with other, more unique, because If they give his abilities to other classes, it's because they are not unique and they fit other classes too. Like Starfall and Death coil. But I can't see the Black Temple to have lot of skills that could fit the DH, maybe I'm wrong.

    They same reason Monks needed Brewmaster abilities. That is the Warcraft version of that class. If they don't have those abilities, then they have no connection to the game universe.
    Monks in SM didn't have any Brewmaster abilities. Why? Because drunken monks don't fit a religious bulwark of fanatics (or yes XDD).
    Last edited by Belisaurio; 2013-09-12 at 09:40 PM.

  5. #905
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    Monks in SM didn't have any Brewmaster abilities. Why? Because drunken monks don't fit a religious bulwark of fanatics (or yes XDD).
    Pandaren Monks. We were never going to play as SM Monks because they're bad guys.

    Plus the whole WC3 thing....
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-12 at 09:55 PM.

  6. #906
    Pandaren Monks. We were never going to play as SM Monks because they're bad guys.
    They are Human Monks. And we can play human monks with the same abilities of Pandaren Monks.
    But a Human Monk in a religious fanatic cathedral, drinking alcohol and fighting in a drunk-state? That don't fit anything...

  7. #907
    Quote Originally Posted by Hengwulf View Post
    If you're trying to pass nonstandard abilities used by nonstandard characters as a norm, you can't really expect to get any meaningful results. I don't think that trying to focus on what all available Dhs have in common, instead of some singular cases of abilities used by exceptional characters is applying arbitrary standards. Player class DH is supposed to capture the essence of what DH is, not everything every DH ever could do.
    In terms of the pool of characters to draw from in the games, about 99% of them are Illidari and 100% of them received direct or indirect training from Illidan himself. Of the ones that don't follow Illidan, one of them is a huge Illidan fan anyway, one is a conscientious objector, one had felhounds for pets, one is a ghost, and the last one might not even be a demon hunter.

    There's about as many of them in-game as there are bards, and they still have warlock abilities.

  8. #908
    There's about as many of them in-game as there are bards, and they still have warlock abilities.
    There are a more NPCs that are demon hunters, bosses included and final chain-quest too. Some of them they didn't have any abilities (trash mobs), some of them had rogue abilities, other ones had warrior and other ones had warlock abilities. The most common to see from lore-characters or Demon Hunters with a true name is the warlocks abilities. Why? Because like I said in the other posts, they fit better than other abilities.

  9. #909
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    The Demon Hunter was absorbed into the Warlock and Rogue classes. Rogues got the melee, blindfold, warglaives, and Evasion. Warlocks got the Demonic abilities.

    Design space for DHs is long gone. Everything demon-based from WC3 got shipped over to Warlocks.

  10. #910
    The Patient Hengwulf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    In terms of the pool of characters to draw from in the games, about 99% of them are Illidari and 100% of them received direct or indirect training from Illidan himself. Of the ones that don't follow Illidan, one of them is a huge Illidan fan anyway, one is a conscientious objector, one had felhounds for pets, one is a ghost, and the last one might not even be a demon hunter.

    There's about as many of them in-game as there are bards, and they still have warlock abilities.
    So you look at WC Demon Hunters, Altruis, Feronas, Loramus and the other guy, and you see warlock? I see cross between warlock and rogue, which is neither. Felhound pets don't help my argument, though.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    The Demon Hunter was absorbed into the Warlock and Rogue classes. Rogues got the melee, blindfold, warglaives, and Evasion. Warlocks got the Demonic abilities.

    Design space for DHs is long gone. Everything demon-based from WC3 got shipped over to Warlocks.
    Paladin is redundant with Warrior and Priest classes ingame. Warriors got the melee, plate armor and 2 handers. Priests got the healing and the Holy Light.

    It doesn't work like that.

  11. #911
    The Demon Hunter was absorbed into the Warlock and Rogue classes. Rogues got the melee, blindfold, warglaives, and Evasion. Warlocks got the Demonic abilities.
    Design space for DHs is long gone. Everything demon-based from WC3 got shipped over to Warlocks.
    1 skill was absorbed by Rogue (happened before). Two skills were absorbed by Warlock (happened before). 1 skill was removed.
    So, 3/4 skills are still used, design space is not gone.

    But I completely understand people that don't see DH like a possible class.
    Demon hunters can't exist in wow because:
    1-They have 3/4 abilities in WC3 already in other classes, so impossible to do anything about that.
    2-Are warlocks.
    3-Are rogues.
    4-Are hunters (?).
    5-Use abilities already in game from other classes, ergo, they overlap with this classes.
    6-Use the same type of dmg than other classes already in game, so they overlap thematically.
    7-etc...

    /joke off

    And one more thing, what happened if 4/4 abilities are already in game? Nothing, because If you want to implement that class in wow, you can, doesn't matter how, but with time, you can.

  12. #912
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    Quote Originally Posted by Belisaurio View Post
    1 skill was absorbed by Rogue (happened before). Two skills were absorbed by Warlock (happened before). 1 skill was removed.
    So, 3/4 skills are still used, design space is not gone.

    But I completely understand people that don't see DH like a possible class.
    Demon hunters can't exist in wow because:
    1-They have 3/4 abilities in WC3 already in other classes, so impossible to do anything about that.
    2-Are warlocks.
    3-Are rogues.
    4-Are hunters (?).
    5-Use abilities already in game from other classes, ergo, they overlap with this classes.
    6-Use the same type of dmg than other classes already in game, so they overlap thematically.
    7-etc...

    /joke off

    And one more thing, what happened if 4/4 abilities are already in game? Nothing, because If you want to implement that class in wow, you can, doesn't matter how, but with time, you can.
    How ridiculous. You guys are acting like this is all some sort of accident. You seem to forget that Blizzard did this. This is all by design. Again, ask yourselves why Blizzard would purposely move DH abilities into other classes, not introduce DHs as a playable class during a DH-themed expansion, give Warlocks the signature Demon Hunter ability, give Warlocks Illidan themed abilities, talents, and armor, introduce another leather wearing agility class, etc? Because they never had any intention of ever introducing the Demon Hunter as a WoW class.

    That reality is so blatant, that it blows my mind that you guys will purposely ignore it and continue on with these asinine arguments thread after thread after thread.

    Let's just put it this way; Demon Hunters wear leather in WoW. We know this because the Cursed Vision of Sageras is leather. Blizzard isn't going to release another leather wearing melee class after introducing Monks.

    It isn't happening.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-12 at 11:20 PM.

  13. #913
    Quote Originally Posted by Drilnos View Post
    In terms of the pool of characters to draw from in the games, about 99% of them are Illidari and 100% of them received direct or indirect training from Illidan himself. Of the ones that don't follow Illidan, one of them is a huge Illidan fan anyway, one is a conscientious objector, one had felhounds for pets, one is a ghost, and the last one might not even be a demon hunter.

    There's about as many of them in-game as there are bards, and they still have warlock abilities.
    Meaning what? What is your ultimate point bringing up npcs? That they are few a d far between and overlap with warlocks? They are npcs. That is all.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    How ridiculous. You guys are acting like this is all some sort of accident. You seem to forget that Blizzard did this. This is all by design. Again, ask yourselves why Blizzard would purposely move DH abilities into other classes, not introduce DHs as a playable class during a DH-themed expansion, give Warlocks the signature Demon Hunter ability, give Warlocks Illidan themed abilities, talents, and armor, introduce another leather wearing
    agility class, etc? Because they never had any intention of ever introducing the Demon Hunter as a WoW class.

    That reality is so blatant, that it blows my mind that you guys will purposely ignore it and continue on with these asinine arguments thread after thread after thread.

    Let's just put it this way; Demon Hunters wear leather in WoW. We know this because the Cursed Vision of Sageras is leather. Blizzard isn't going to release another leather wearing melee class after introducing Monks.

    It isn't happening.
    Cursed vision is Rogue, Druid and Monk gear. Demon hunter class could be mail. No limit exists because the class does not exist.

  14. #914
    I like the prospect of a Tinker. I just like the prospect of a Demon Hunter more.

    I'm currently working on a huge document detailing a Demon Hunter class, describing their spells, specs, stat uses, passives, talents, glyphs etc, but I am looking forward to writing up a Tinker document afterwards and seeing what you guys feel about it.

  15. #915
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Cursed vision is Rogue, Druid and Monk gear. Demon hunter class could be mail. No limit exists because the class does not exist.
    So WoW Demon Hunters wouldn't be able to wear a signature Demon Hunter head piece from Illidan Stormrage?

    That don't make sense.

  16. #916
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    So WoW Demon Hunters wouldn't be able to wear a signature Demon Hunter head piece from Illidan Stormrage?

    That don't make sense.
    They cant wear the warlock challenge gear either. Does that blow your mind too? Cursed vision is also old gear. Why design a class around one item? That would make less sense.

  17. #917
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    They cant wear the warlock challenge gear either. Does that blow your mind too? Cursed vision is also old gear. Why design a class around one item? That would make less sense.
    No, because that gear is specifically for Warlocks.

    The Cursed Vison of Sageras is an item associated with Demon Hunters, and it drops from THE Demon Hunter Illidan Stormrage. You don't think DH players wouldn't like to transmog that gear? You wouldn't be able to transmog that if you're wearing mail armor.

    Monks, Rogues, and Druids can wear the Cursed Vision of Sageras but not Demon Hunters? Think about that for a moment.

    It's like DHs not being able to use the Warglaives of Azzinoth.

    Consider this just another sign that DHs aren't meant to be a class in WoW.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-13 at 02:56 AM.

  18. #918
    Sorry, don't buy it. You simply have no other method to attack the Demon Hunter concept once you've accepted the possibility for them to wear mail (or any type of) armor. The only thing you have left to grasp on to is pushing Legacy gear as a reason for their existence, which frankly is a laughable idea.

    Blindfolds aren't limited to any armor type, and it could easily be alleviated by having visual blindfold models as a permanent part of the Demon Hunter heads. If you choose to wear a helm on top to cover that, you can. If not, leave helmet off and there you have your blindfolds. Any type of armor or helm is a stat boost, just like gear for any other class.

    Aside from all this, even if the Demon Hunter class for whatever reason was unable to wield the Blades of Azzinoth, it wouldn't be a problem at all, for two big reasons. One is that even Death Knights can not wield Frostmourne, and suffer no less without it, so Demon Hunters would not either. Two is that the Twin Blades are not transmoggable. All that needs to happen is to allow them to have access to Transmoggable versions of Warglaives, which could include the Twin Blades model (with new texture).

    Sorry, but legacy gear doesn't define a class.

  19. #919
    Merely a Setback Teriz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thimagryn View Post
    Sorry, don't buy it. You simply have no other method to attack the Demon Hunter concept once you've accepted the possibility for them to wear mail (or any type of) armor. The only thing you have left to grasp on to is pushing Legacy gear as a reason for their existence, which frankly is a laughable idea.

    Blindfolds aren't limited to any armor type, and it could easily be alleviated by having visual blindfold models as a permanent part of the Demon Hunter heads. If you choose to wear a helm on top to cover that, you can. If not, leave helmet off and there you have your blindfolds. Any type of armor or helm is a stat boost, just like gear for any other class.

    Aside from all this, even if the Demon Hunter class for whatever reason was unable to wield the Blades of Azzinoth, it wouldn't be a problem at all, for two big reasons. One is that even Death Knights can not wield Frostmourne, and suffer no less without it, so Demon Hunters would not either. Two is that the Twin Blades are not transmoggable. All that needs to happen is to allow them to have access to Transmoggable versions of Warglaives, which could include the Twin Blades model (with new texture).

    Sorry, but legacy gear doesn't define a class.
    You don't seem to understand what I'm saying, so I'll try again;

    The Curse Vision of Sageras indicates that a Demon Hunter would be a leather wearing class. Why? Because the Cursed Vision of Sageras is leather, and it drops from Illidan. Its also pretty iconic. The idea that Demon Hunters can't wear an iconic Demon Hunter armor is ridiculous, and makes no sense. You brushing that off as if its meaningless is pretty hilarious. You don't think the first thing a DH player would do would be to get their hands on the Cursed Vision?

    Imagine their surprise when they can't wear it because for some oddball reason Demon Hunters have to wear mail armor....


    Also since when can't Death Knights use Frostmourne? Its a 2H sword. DHs can use 2H swords.
    Last edited by Teriz; 2013-09-13 at 04:06 AM.

  20. #920
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    You don't seem to understand what I'm saying, so I'll try again;

    The Curse Vision of Sageras indicates that a Demon Hunter would be a leather wearing class. Why? Because the Cursed Vision of Sageras is leather, and it drops from Illidan. Its also pretty iconic. The idea that Demon Hunters can't wear an iconic Demon Hunter armor is ridiculous, and makes no sense. You brushing that off as if its meaningless is pretty hilarious. You don't think the first thing a DH player would do would be to get their hands on the Cursed Vision?

    Imagine their surprise when they can't wear it because for some oddball reason Demon Hunters have to wear mail armor....


    Also since when can't Death Knights use Frostmourne? Its a 2H sword. DHs can use 2H swords.
    Jesus christ, i havnt even been following the thread and i see this nonsense

    Quote Originally Posted by Simulatio View Post
    A handful of people nut-busting about it on various forums does not equal popularity, and popularity does not equal good design.

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