Garrosh took child prisoners from Theramore

[delus]

They're going to have to remake all of the zones that depict horde and alliance at war with each other whether they like it or not if they are going to revive the living world concept for ek and kalimdor and the war is officially coming to an end. Guess they didn't think too much about that when the cata redesign came around. Anyways, Blizzard is free to do a 180 on design choices they tweeted about (which they have a high possibility of doing with monthly updates).

[Okacz]

I don't see any point in capturing the children for anything other than just being a cruel cruel person. Garrosh must pay for his crimes!

The question is when did he do that. I mean, it's been said numerous times that Theramore was a military target, not only that, but also every civilian got out of there DAYS before it was attacked. Garrosh made sure that the Alliance knew it was targeted and sent their best military leaders. There should have been NO DAMN CIVILIANS there.

So, what, where did he get those guys? Is he so evil now that be built a small village, called it Theramore, kidnapped some humans to force them to live there for a while only to brutally kidnap them again? Well, an explanation good as any.

[Flaks]

lol you probably have the biggest grin right now.

Next, we just need Stonetalon to (again) be proven that Garrosh was in on it, and there will be nothing to support the claim that Garrosh was ever anything close to good.

Hey look, Blizzard retconning the shit out of their lore to attempt to convince players that they knew what they were doing all along. Loljk gameplay > lore.

Blizzard doesn't know half the shit about it's own lore. Players have better ideas on where to take the lore or how to build characters most of the time. Blizzard has shown itself to be completely inept at building up a convincing story and/or telling it in a convincing way for the past 6 or so years at least.

P.S. No one can convince me that Blizzard always wanted Garrosh to be a bad guy. Even Metzen coming out of the woodworks to claim as such won't convince me simply because the lore team said things entirely to the contrary going into Cataclysm. Yes, Garrosh is bad now, no one is going to deny that; whether he was bad from the beginning is debatabale.

[MikeBogina]

Seriously? That's a little sadistic. Seriously man. I mean...I can be sadistic when I write but...I don't believe I can cross that line.

If they're gonna say he captured them to make us hate him even more, then they better make it believable instead of just making up random reasons to hate him more.

"Garrosh kidnapped children... what a monster!" "omg thats terrible... what is he doing with them?" "ohhh... we didn't get that far in the brainstorming yesterday.... um having them play with the Orphans?" >.>

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if Garrosh did take child prisoners from Theramore, that makes his crimes so much worse.

It shines a new light on him IMHO. It's irredeemable, there is no chance for redemption before the end.

See thats what they were going for... Good job blizz


also i wouldn't go with light, more like another coat of bullshit paint xD

[delus]

Hey look, Blizzard retconning the shit out of their lore to attempt to convince players that they knew what they were doing all along. Loljk gameplay > lore.

Blizzard doesn't know half the shit about it's own lore. Players have better ideas on where to take the lore or how to build characters most of the time. Blizzard has shown itself to be completely inept at building up a convincing story and/or telling it in a convincing way for the past 6 or so years at least.

P.S. No one can convince me that Blizzard always wanted Garrosh to be a bad guy. Even Metzen coming out of the woodworks to claim as such won't convince me simply because the lore team said things entirely to the contrary going into Cataclysm. Yes, Garrosh is bad now, no one is going to deny that; whether he was bad from the beginning is debatabale.

I feel that it was a fail on their behalf for not taking more control of Christie Golden's work. They did not check it enough for consistency within the game. The Theramore scenario in game differs from the one presented in book too. I'm afraid the simple answer is that they mostly screwed up and the whole thing in the book about survivors is also not cannon.

[Aquamonkey]

I feel that it was a fail on their behalf for not taking more control of Christie Golden's work. They did not check it enough for consistency within the game. The Theramore scenario in game differs from the one presented in book too. I'm afraid the simple answer is that they mostly screwed up and the whole thing in the book about survivors is also not cannon.

The survivors in the book are Jaina's "assistants" who are supposed to be the players. Blizzard changed the setting of the scenario after the book was written.

The reasoning made no sense. She opened her mouth, and he snapped, “Don’t argue. Just—go through, all of you!”
Jaina’s companions obeyed, racing into the swirling portal. Jaina hung back. Something wasn’t right. Why was he—
--Tides of War

"You are in the scene. It says "Jaina turns to her five friends." And the Horde also has an adventure involving that. And that's you! I keep it very vague. I don't have genders or races or classes. It's just five people who are helping Jaina out. You get to be there. That's going to be pretty cool, and I think that may make people like Theramore a lot more. Because they're part of it now."
--Christie Golden

Blizzard bounced back and forth between when to set the Alliance scenario. They chose to make it after the bombing because they thought it made for the best gameplay. WoW is a game, gameplay is king.

Any chance of a complete redo of the theramore alliance side scenario to more closely match the events of the book?
Theramore went through several revisions. The version that took place 'during' the book was less fun, and was scrapped. (Source)

Sometimes it's too obv how little you care about the story/lore of the game.
We care ENORMOUSLY about the story and lore. But we care about gameplay more. (Source)

[Deleted]

The survivors in the book are Jaina's "assistants" who are supposed to be the players. Blizzard changed the setting of the scenario after the book was written.

The reasoning made no sense. She opened her mouth, and he snapped, “Don’t argue. Just—go through, all of you!”
Jaina’s companions obeyed, racing into the swirling portal. Jaina hung back. Something wasn’t right. Why was he—
--Tides of War

"You are in the scene. It says "Jaina turns to her five friends." And the Horde also has an adventure involving that. And that's you! I keep it very vague. I don't have genders or races or classes. It's just five people who are helping Jaina out. You get to be there. That's going to be pretty cool, and I think that may make people like Theramore a lot more. Because they're part of it now."
--Christie Golden

Blizzard bounced back and forth between when to set the Alliance scenario. They chose to make it after the bombing because they thought it made for the best gameplay. WoW is a game, gameplay is king.

Any chance of a complete redo of the theramore alliance side scenario to more closely match the events of the book?
Theramore went through several revisions. The version that took place 'during' the book was less fun, and was scrapped. (Source)

Sometimes it's too obv how little you care about the story/lore of the game.
We care ENORMOUSLY about the story and lore. But we care about gameplay more. (Source)

You can spout this gameplay over story crap all you like, especially when it comes to Theramore. It amount of times you post it doesn't make it any less of a pile of bullfeces than it is.

Yay, players get to see Theramore when it's destroyed and clean everything up while Horde get to do the actual bombing....how is this better gameplay!? If the Alliance were fighting a losing battle against the Horde as this massive mana bomb slowly creeps towards Theramore, people would fight a lot harder and get more involved in the story. It would have made more compelling gameplay and it would have been a far better send of than 'Hey, Theramore's gone it seems. We didn't know about it until we arrived here, now get off the boat and kill stuff'.

But who the hell am I kidding? We all know that 'Defend Theramore to the last man in what's ultimately a losing battle while this giant bomb creeps slowly towards you and you're left feeling connected to the story more while the gameplay is enhanced to see everything going on around you as it actually happened only to be saved alongside Jaina by being forced through the portal' Would have made a completely shitty gameplay Scenario, right!?

No.

Hell, if Gameplay over Lore mattered so much to Blizzard, why did the Alliance get to run around as a mechanical cat in 5.3 wihle the Horde got an epic quest alongside Horde heroes!?

You're arguments are invalid and it's time you accepted that.

[Aquamonkey]

You can spout this gameplay over story crap all you like, especially when it comes to Theramore. It amount of times you post it doesn't make it any less of a pile of bullfeces than it is.

Yay, players get to see Theramore when it's destroyed and clean everything up while Horde get to do the actual bombing....how is this better gameplay!? If the Alliance were fighting a losing battle against the Horde as this massive mana bomb slowly creeps towards Theramore, people would fight a lot harder and get more involved in the story. It would have made more compelling gameplay and it would have been a far better send of than 'Hey, Theramore's gone it seems. We didn't know about it until we arrived here, now get off the boat and kill stuff'.

But who the hell am I kidding? We all know that 'Defend Theramore to the last man in what's ultimately a losing battle while this giant bomb creeps slowly towards you and you're left feeling connected to the story more while the gameplay is enhanced to see everything going on around you as it actually happened only to be saved alongside Jaina by being forced through the portal' Would have made a completely shitty gameplay Scenario, right!?

No.

Hell, if Gameplay over Lore mattered so much to Blizzard, why did the Alliance get to run around as a mechanical cat in 5.3 wihle the Horde got an epic quest alongside Horde heroes!?

You're arguments are invalid and it's time you accepted that.

Yes, my arguments... did you miss the part where these are direct quotes from Blizzard?

[Deleted]

Yes, my arguments... did you miss the part where these are direct quotes from Blizzard?

Did you miss the first line?

[Flaks]

Yes, my arguments... did you miss the part where these are direct quotes from Blizzard?

I agree that people jumping down your throats over these things is dumb.

However I think Blizzard's justification for ripping apart their own well-established lore for the sake of mostly arbitrary gameplay improvements is, as the person you quoted it put it, bullfeces.

[luciano]

Garrosh is a pederast, per the Big Lebowski, and nothing will change my mind on that.

Eight-year-olds, Dude.

[Lumineus]

This has got to be the laziest writing blizz has ever done. Nowhere does it say theramore was missing civilians and if it did dont you think jaina would be scouring the earth for them seeing that they are her people back in 5.0!

Been and done. They are presumed killed. That's why there's a disconnect between Jaina's and Rogers' rants about Theramore, and Kosak's statements about the evacuation. Now we know the reality is far worse.

[Austilias]

I guess at the end of all this, the Alliance simply have to wait until their so-called 'victories' are also able to provide gameplay; as gameplay is king.

As if that'll ever happen. The Horde's victories will continue to be shown in gameplay; and the Alliance's will be written off in short stories/novels that only a fraction of the playerbase reads. An easy solution that ultimately allows Blizzard to maintain their bias.

[MikeBogina]

I guess at the end of all this, the Alliance simply have to wait until their so-called 'victories' are also able to provide gameplay; as gameplay is king.

As if that'll ever happen. The Horde's victories will continue to be shown in gameplay; and the Alliance's will be written off in short stories/novels that only a fraction of the playerbase reads. An easy solution that ultimately allows Blizzard to maintain their bias.

just curious, but since the balancing of cata, what victories do the Horde have over Alliance?

[Austilias]

just curious, but since the balancing of cata, what victories do the Horde have over Alliance?

With respect to the Alliance/Alliance races and zones in general? Gilneas/Hillsbrad/Theramore/Western Plaguelands and a few other places here and there. The rebalancing of zones did not necessitate Horde victories, despite that having been a consequence.

Since the balancing of Cata of course, they've been less keen to demonstrate Horde victories so blatantly; but SoO is the perfect example of a Horde 'defeat' that isn't really a 'defeat' at all, given that it's not the 'Horde' losing in SoO but rather, big bad Garrosh and his big bad Kor'kron cronies.

[Murderdoll]

Oh I like it. I hope he turns them into little Sha monsters.

Snacks for Galakras.

[Mic_128]

Hell, if Gameplay over Lore mattered so much to Blizzard, why did the Alliance get to run around as a mechanical cat in 5.3 wihle the Horde got an epic quest alongside Horde heroes!?

Sounds to me like you're comparing apples to oranges. Running around as a Mechanical Cat sounds kinda cool, honestly.

[wheelmandan]

oh god put a soak in it already! We get it, you want all out alliance victory la la la. We are losing many characters in this siege and many who have gone over to garroshs side, or even those who do not, are ending up dead.
Its never enough for some people, try walking in a horde players boots for five minutes.

Oh plase poor you horde player haveing every town and land that was ours by rights is now your oh ok give you 5min of feeling very powerful..you loseing a few npc.... really how many npc did allied loses a fuck alot! we lost Marcus Jonathan who was at the bombing and many others that are part of allied!

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this is the list of people we lost in this bombing!
Pained †
Captain "Stash" Torgoley
First Mate Kowalski
Navigator Mehran
Engineer Combs
Galley Chief Grace
Marine Anderson
Marine Halters
Sailor Henders
Sailor Vines
Sailor Wicks
Abe the Cabin Boy
Archmage Tervosh †
Lieutenant Aden †
Admiral Tarlen Aubrey †
Doctor Gustaf VanHowzen †
Shandris Feathermoon
Marcus Jonathan †
Horran Redmane †
Thaddus Stoutblow †
Adolphus Blastwidget
Captain Tellern †
"Mad" Morden Morgrensen †
Squallshaper Lanara †
Lieutenant Granders †
Captain Brellinger †
Captain Dashing †
Hedric Evencane †
Baldruc †
Captain Stormwall †
Big Bessa †

General Tiras'alan †
Rhonin †

Kinndy Sparkshine †
Amara Leeson †
Thoder Windermere †
Tari Cogg †

Kalec

[Aquamonkey]

this is the list of people we lost in this bombing!
Pained †
Captain "Stash" Torgoley
First Mate Kowalski
Navigator Mehran
Engineer Combs
Galley Chief Grace
Marine Anderson
Marine Halters
Sailor Henders
Sailor Vines
Sailor Wicks
Abe the Cabin Boy
Archmage Tervosh †
Lieutenant Aden †
Admiral Tarlen Aubrey †
Doctor Gustaf VanHowzen †
Shandris Feathermoon
Marcus Jonathan †
Horran Redmane †
Thaddus Stoutblow †
Adolphus Blastwidget
Captain Tellern †
"Mad" Morden Morgrensen †
Squallshaper Lanara †
Lieutenant Granders †
Captain Brellinger †
Captain Dashing †
Hedric Evencane †
Baldruc †
Captain Stormwall †
Big Bessa †

General Tiras'alan †
Rhonin †

Kinndy Sparkshine †
Amara Leeson †
Thoder Windermere †
Tari Cogg †

Kalec

Uhh... Kalecgos is alive and well...

And since when is Big Bessa a person? It's a siege engine. Besides, it was destroyed with Captain Stormwall before the bombing. Same with Baldruc, Captain Tellern, Morden MOrgrensen, Spallshaper Lanara, Lt. Granders, Captain Brellinger, Captain Dashing, and Hedric Evencane.

Everybody on Captain "Stash" Torgoley's ship is still alive. They transport Alliance players to the ruins of Theramore.

Shandris Feathermoon was outside of Theramore when the bomb went off.

Adolphus Blastwidget had a mission outside Theramore and it's unknown if he was in the city when the bomb went off.

[Zuben]

Didn't Dave or someone say Garrosh was at least consistent in not hurting civilians? This bit is *slightly* contradictory with that.