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  1. #361
    Legendary! Callace's Avatar
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    This is all about hardcores having to share the same oxygen as casuals. This is never about hardcores not having anything to do.

    If someone needs so much status from a video game, they must have the self-esteem of a fucking gnat.

  2. #362
    Imo player flying was the first step into dumbing down the game.

    There's a major difference in getting to UBRS on a pvp server at primetime in vanilla, and flying straight into Mechanar in tbc, it only went downhill from there on.

  3. #363
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    WoW's current model forces out people whose sole source of pride and fun related to this game was the fact that the next person was never [in the then-foreseeable future] going to get the gear and raid invites that they do? Good riddance.
    ? I never was able to get into a good raid guild on WoW. I mostly just PVP on WoW. The concept of it was appealing to me, and if I wanted to start raiding I had to put forth actual effort to raise to the top. While I did join raid guilds, most of them were never any good, and I generally never got to see past the first few bosses. I was okay with that, though. It gave guilds incentive to improve, and they sometimes did.

    It's almost like game companies KNOW people like you and RickJamesLich are an irrelevant minority not worth developing toward.
    Considering the peak of WoW and FFXI were when the games were actually challenging and immersive, I'd have to disagree. In fact, ever since FFXI started going easy-mode in 2009, it went from a steady 500k sub base for five years down to a staggering 250k.

    We all know about WoW.

  4. #364
    Legendary! Callace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Imo player flying was the first step into dumbing down the game.

    There's a major difference in getting to UBRS on a pvp server at primetime in vanilla, and flying straight into Mechanar in tbc, it only went downhill from there on.
    I also think there is a big gray area between difficulty and tedium.

  5. #365
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    Quote Originally Posted by Callace View Post
    This is all about hardcores having to share the same oxygen as casuals. This is never about hardcores not having anything to do.

    If someone needs so much status from a video game, they must have the self-esteem of a fucking gnat.
    Funnily enough, snippets of info from Blizzard employees point out that the flow/cyclic change and replacement of gaming population within WoW itself has been on such a grand scale, that the amount of hardcore-raiding oldtimers still active is very, VERY scarce.

  6. #366
    Legendary! Callace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    Funnily enough, snippets of info from Blizzard employees point out that the flow/cyclic change and replacement of gaming population within WoW itself has been on such a grand scale, that the amount of hardcore-raiding oldtimers still active is very, VERY scarce.
    Yup. There are scores of these threads for every hardcore, and a thousand casuals for each of these threads.

    Blizzard only cares about the difficulty as far as they are getting $paid$. There would be NO LFR OR Normal if there were millions of hardcores. There aren't though.

  7. #367
    quick someone make a thread named did hardcores ruin wow and if so how?

    oh thats right . casuals dont do that sort of thing.

    you know, whine about what other people are getting like a freakin baby.

  8. #368
    Quote Originally Posted by Crispin View Post
    Imo player flying was the first step into dumbing down the game.

    There's a major difference in getting to UBRS on a pvp server at primetime in vanilla, and flying straight into Mechanar in tbc, it only went downhill from there on.
    Ahhh I loved the good old days of traveling to black rock mountain. Between rogues lurking around, so having to make a mad dash to the entrance, and raids heading into places like MC, there was always an awesome battle going down.

  9. #369
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    WoW's current model forces out people whose sole source of pride and fun related to this game was the fact that the next person was never [in the then-foreseeable future] going to get the gear and raid invites that they do? Good riddance.
    I didn't get that from reading his post at all. Odd.

    Let me ask you this. Is killing an LFR boss as rewarding as defeating one that you've been working on for a few weeks? The whole 'pride' thing has nothing to do with knowing someone else can't clear a given hurdle (or even caring what anyone else does to begin with), but it's more about earning vs. being given an accomplishment.

  10. #370
    Please stop talking about casuals vs hardcore for once. Lets start talking about real problem of WoW------->constant increase and demands of noob population in the game.....

  11. #371
    Quote Originally Posted by Xecks View Post
    you know, whine about what other people are getting like a freakin baby.
    You must be new here.

  12. #372
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Ditto for me in Cataclysm. And I got sick to death of seeing the same bosses week in and week, watching the same (otherwise nice) players fail time and again on the same mechanics, and spending 30 minutes at the beginning of each raid trying to hunt down missing players and/or attempting to recruit a semi-geared pug from trade chat and/or friend lists. It's not a fun or social experience. It's the opposite of a game's intended purpose.

    You're ascribing motives and actions to me that have no basis in reality. I'm actually pretty good at the game and have always been invited into just about every guild that I've run raids with. I generally top the healing charts across all categories (HPS, Dispels, etc.) and seldom fail at any mechanic. I don't throw tantrums when I don't get the loot I want and I never rage when others struggle with mechanics. I've never cried to Blizzard and I don't expect to gain anything in the game "for free." On the other hand, I am sick to death of the raiding grind and since Blizzard refuses to put anything new into their game that doesn't revolve around raiding I don't see the point in sticking with WoW.
    No, I'm just describing the reality. You have always been able to see the end-game with 2-3 nights of raiding. And from what you describe, you were in quite bad guilds. No top guild even on a small server is going to be pugging from trade to fill their raids and then inviting the pugs to the guild. That's what the bottom tier guilds do. And that's fine. Those kinds of guilds have their place, and should have their content. But it doesn't mean they should automatically be guaranteed to get through all the raids in the game. I don't think you understand just how big of a skill gap there is between the kinds of guilds you describe, and the top guilds. You think you're "pretty good", but the reality is that you probably wouldn't have made it in my guild, for example. And that's fine too, you can either raid with groups more suited for you or improve your skills so you can make it in the top guilds. It's just that when you're less skilled and in a less skilled guild, you don't need as much content to fill your playtimes as highly skilled players in well run guilds.

    Anyway, the point is that the excuse of "I have wife and kids and mortgage and a supermodel gf on the side" or whatever is just an excuse. You can have all those things while still clearing content. The critical factor is skill. Skill in playing your character, skill in functioning as a member of a group and skill in time/life management. The game should have content for all skill levels (and dedication levels), but it should be different content. Because when you try to use the same content for everyone, you end up with a mess of compromises that really doesn't suit anyone (and as WoW has shown us, lose 2M subs/year).

  13. #373
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    I didn't get that from reading his post at all. Odd.

    Let me ask you this. Is killing an LFR boss as rewarding as defeating one that you've been working on for a few weeks? The whole 'pride' thing has nothing to do with knowing someone else can't clear a given hurdle (or even caring what anyone else does to begin with), but it's more about earning vs. being given an accomplishment.
    >Implying that working harder than the rest doesn't visibly pay off in the current shape of the game

    As of now, those who feel the need to work harder on how they progress through their dungeons and raids are capable of making entire ordeal easier not only for themselves, but for their teammates as well- -their progress and work being more visible in the QUALITY of their actions, with obtaining gear being that much less of a reason to feel proud.

  14. #374
    Quote Originally Posted by Zafire View Post
    Considering the peak of WoW and FFXI were when the games were actually challenging and immersive, I'd have to disagree. In fact, ever since FFXI started going easy-mode in 2009, it went from a steady 500k sub base for five years down to a staggering 250k.

    We all know about WoW.
    If anyone in a position of authority, with market research and hard statistics at their disposal, thought that poopsock-mode raiding attracted or retained hundreds of thousands of players, poopsock-mode games would not be a "dying breed" as you put it. Oh wait, let me guess, you think that if WoW still catered to hardcores it would never lose subscriptions. There would just be 12 million people all sitting around doing attunements and staring at your epics for the next twenty years, right?

    This idiot notion, that the decline of the game is due to the hurt feelings of hardcores (and not F2P competition or the sheer age of the game) is the death-cry of "raiding culture" as a relevant part of mainstream MMO gaming. It's the pleasing fantasy that the hardcore culture has bought into as it's been marched off to the retirement home.

    Where are the hardcore games? Why isn't anyone making them? Are they all dumber than you? Do they, with their consultants and their stats and research, just not understand how popular exclusive raiding is? If it's so popular, why are you guys practically exiles in your own game anymore?

  15. #375
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    >Implying that working harder than the rest doesn't visibly pay off in the current shape of the game

    As of now, those who feel the need to work harder on how they progress through their dungeons and raids are capable of making entire ordeal easier not only for themselves, but for their teammates as well- -their progress and work being more visible in the QUALITY of their actions, with obtaining gear being that much less of a reason to feel proud.
    You didn't answer the question.

  16. #376
    Legendary! Callace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post

    Let me ask you this. Is killing an LFR boss as rewarding as defeating one that you've been working on for a few weeks?.
    Oh, it absolutely is not. But only a very small fraction of players will pay for the latter. Your beef is with the audience, not the devs.


    edit: shit, i misread your syntax, sorry
    Last edited by Callace; 2013-09-05 at 06:10 PM.

  17. #377
    I am Murloc! Tomana's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    What do you mean "no longer"?
    E.g. no longer being a student, changing jobs etc... People's occupations change.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskra View Post
    Protip, it's the go to excuse people use when they've grown into adults and acctually should focus on something else than the game, but rather don't because they're still too addicted to it. That's why many consider LFR a blessing.
    Indeed, this is often the case.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by punmar View Post
    Please stop talking about casuals vs hardcore for once. Lets start talking about real problem of WoW------->constant increase and demands of noob population in the game.....
    Actually, this is just plain false, as WoW does not attract new players very well, because the entry barrier is too high compared to your average MOBA or shooter game.
    MMO player
    WoW: 2006-2020 || EvE: 2013-2020 || FFXIV: 2020- || Lost Ark: 2022-

  18. #378
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    You didn't answer the question.
    Rather the case of you failing to apply my answer to your question, but I'll try to write it in terms easier to comprehend and apply:

    Difficulty scale decreases- -so does the time required for a regular player to obtain related necessities. What is left? The fact that better-prepared player makes the whole experience less troublesome for himself and the rest - THIS is something that will be a cause of pride more stable and reliable than the pride derived from extensive basement dwelling aimed at maxing out stats to bring the dungeon boss down earlier than the 'casual'.

  19. #379
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    Rather the case of you failing to apply my answer to your question, but I'll try to write it in terms easier to comprehend and apply:

    Difficulty scale decreases- -so does the time required for a regular player to obtain related necessities. What is left? The fact that better-prepared player makes the whole experience less troublesome for himself and the rest - THIS is something that will be a cause of pride more stable and reliable than the pride derived from extensive basement dwelling aimed at maxing out stats to bring the dungeon boss down earlier than the 'casual'.
    Masterful question dodging. You should become a politician.

  20. #380
    Deleted
    This post can only end badly

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