Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?

[melodramocracy]

2. Flex raiding may be fine as an entry level introduction to raiding if you can commit to a guild and if a guild will take you along.

On a completely unrelated note, I can't wait to see what ludicrous requirements pugs ask for to get into a flex raid. (it seems that the current asking requirement for heroic scenarios is 515 on my server, which humors me to no end)

[Ronduwil]

Who told you to use addons?
Who told you to use loot lists?
Who told you to watch boss guides?

Pretty much every raiding guild out there requires addons. Many addons even come with a built in feature that scans every player in the group and dumps out whether they also have the addon as well as the version of the addon that they have. Same with boss guides. Every raiding guild requires that you know the fight. Even top tier raiding guilds only go in with players who have been fighting the boss on the PTR. As for loot lists, the quickest way to avoid loot drama is to point to askmrrobot and prove that the loot you're rolling on is higher priority on your list than what you currently have equipped. I personally don't do that because I don't fight over loot, but I've seen many disputes resolved that way.

YOU chose what you want to do, if you watch videos or reforge with an addon to get the optimal setup that's your doing.

Well, when the game is all raid all the time and all raiding guilds insist on your using those tools, your choice is to either use them or not play.

This is the same deal with guns/bullets: Guns don't kill people, people kill people. If you want to find out something you will find a way, someone else will maybe provide you with a way to do so but in the end it's your choice.

I'll just leave this here for you: Colorado Teen Shot and Killed in Prank Gone Wrong

[MoanaLisa]

On a completely unrelated note, I can't wait to see what ludicrous requirements pugs ask for to get into a flex raid. (it seems that the current asking requirement for heroic scenarios is 515 on my server, which humors me to no end)

I don't see it so unrelated really. I added a bit onto the end of my post about the other side of the social experience that HMG describes in his post. Finding a guild that is tolerant of new raiders and does away with ridiculous applications and requirements is a difficult thing to do which makes the better social experience inherent in Flex/Normal/Heroic irrelevant. So too pugs. We'll see if that changes or if Flex becomes popular enough to spawn its own guild/pug culture. Realistically I very much doubt the last mainly because LFR is not quite the terrible stress experience that most people describe to generate forum drama and quite a few are content with it obviously even if you don't hear much from them here. That's last week's thread.

But I'd be pretty happy if social guilds got onboard with flex and migrated a little bit in that direction.

[jbombard]

If anybody "ruined" WoW in the past or ruins WoW in the future, it was/will be Blizzard. As far as neither casual nor hard core players are designing and developing the game.

[Ronduwil]

Never used a single add on other than recount, dbm, and a threat meter which eventually dropped the meter and still on main and alts topped dps plenty.

DBM basically does the raid for you. Whenever I think of game breaking addons that's the one. A player without DBM may as well not even raid in today's atmosphere. I also laugh when you talk about topping DPS charts while merely using recount. What do you think the purpose of recount is?!? That's like saying, "I didn't cheat on my arithmetic test except for using a calculator."

[Deleted]

"Maybe casuals really just don't like WoW...." I think there's a whole lot of truth in that, too. MMO's in general, even, I think that carries a lot of truth. The games attract casual players, but can't keep them because they flat out don't have engaging casual content, and in some ways, never have :x

- - - Updated - - -


I don't really see how not having LFR would really do much right now. It's not like those people will magically keep playing for no reason. It's not like normal raid participation has ever been all that high anyways.

If anything, not having SOMETHING for those people to do would have just hastened the quitting.

If anything needs to be done, it's just having a queue-able progression path that includes LFR, but isn't JUST LFR.

You have to realize that most people flat out don't want to do organized stuff in these kind of games, and never really have. I know it sucks to hear that, and probably goes against most of what you think about the game. But it's the truth :x

Nah, don't get me wrong. I do not want the feature gone. It would be counter-productive. But, it needs tweaking. It should show those people who hate organized groups that it is, in fact, not bad. Of course, not shove it into their face but the current attitude and the message that LFR sends out is not a good one. Flex is definitely an improvement in this regard.

[Lotharion]

Bad players ruined WoW. How much time people spend doing things is irrelevant.

[Alerzhul]

LFR is standalone different from other forms of raiding; it's purposes, audience and uses (especially for alts) different and as such should simply be left alone with some minor improvements to remove some of the occasional laziness and griefing that happens.

Remove laziness from LFR? Huh? Laziness is why LFR exists in the first place. It's the definition of LFR. I doubt Blizz would ever be concerned about that.

[RickJamesLich]

The circumstances that existed which allowed for something like SWP are no longer true. The first circumstances is that the player base is not growing anymore. The second circumstance is that far more casual and just players in general are hitting lvl 90 and must be entertained at lvl 90. To be entertained at lvl 90 the developers would either have to get them involved into the content they create (raids which take up most of their time) or forsake that content in favor of other content to entertain their audience. LFR is a win for raiders wether or not you wish to accept this is irellevant.

I agree they are going about it in a poor way. If the economic realities forced them to choose between making raids but shoving everybody into raids or severely curtailing the production and quality and depth of raids then the later was the obvious choice. The former is a choice in favor of raiders and hardcores. Congratulations. You (and raids) won. Dungeons lost.

Not quite sure you can say more people are hitting max level now than ever before. And in the days of Sunwell Plateau, casuals had some pretty good content even if they couldn't touch the Sunwell.
I'd agree the game is not often picking up new players - blizz for as long as I've known has thrived from word of mouth, but what's really worth bragging about in WoW nowadays? I remember one of the things someone would bring up was raiding - but after LFR, stuff like that has just died down. Wow's lacking that x-factor that would sound really cool and pull people in.

And trust me when I say LFR has hurt the raiding community - it's much more difficult to find raiders now and many guilds are splitting up because of it, last tier, I was in 4 guilds that split up lol. Now I know you're thinking I'm just talking about my own experiences, almost every long time raider I know is saying the same thing - old players are leaving and there's very few new guys to take their place, unlike previous expansions. LFR IMO is definitely the culprit here.

[Osmeric]

And trust me when I say LFR has hurt the raiding community - it's much more difficult to find raiders now and many guilds are splitting up because of it, last tier, I was in 4 guilds that split up lol. Now I know you're thinking I'm just talking about my own experiences, almost every long time raider I know is saying the same thing - old players are leaving and there's very few new guys to take their place, unlike previous expansions. LFR IMO is definitely the culprit here.

No, excessively difficult normal modes are the culprit.

[Glorious Leader]

I don't really see how not having LFR would really do much right now. It's not like those people will magically keep playing for no reason. It's not like normal raid participation has ever been all that high anyways.

If anything, not having SOMETHING for those people to do would have just hastened the quitting.

If anything needs to be done, it's just having a queue-able progression path that includes LFR, but isn't JUST LFR.

You have to realize that most people flat out don't want to do organized stuff in these kind of games, and never really have. I know it sucks to hear that, and probably goes against most of what you think about the game. But it's the truth :x

They may not want organized stuff but not on that level. Theirs degrees of organized to. It's all so nuanced like do they want organized 5 mans? I'm sure some do. Organized to the extent that they can take their friends in (of all skill levels and walks of life) and progress and have a blast. That's like social and enjoyable. Do they want to plunked down with 24 random strangers for 2-3 (and spend an hour in que) well probably not although I'm sure some do.

We had a que able progression path outside of raiding but it drew people from raiding which makes raiding less economic. I'm honestly not sure you can have a progression path that isn't only raiding without having people choose somethign else that isn't raiding. Once people choose something that isn't raiding well then the developers have to make a choice. Make another raid or make that other content in lieu of the other raid.

- - - Updated - - -

Not quite sure you can say more people are hitting max level now than ever before. And in the days of Sunwell Plateau, casuals had some pretty good content even if they couldn't touch the Sunwell.
I'd agree the game is not often picking up new players - blizz for as long as I've known has thrived from word of mouth, but what's really worth bragging about in WoW nowadays? I remember one of the things someone would bring up was raiding - but after LFR, stuff like that has just died down. Wow's lacking that x-factor that would sound really cool and pull people in.

And trust me when I say LFR has hurt the raiding community - it's much more difficult to find raiders now and many guilds are splitting up because of it, last tier, I was in 4 guilds that split up lol. Now I know you're thinking I'm just talking about my own experiences, almost every long time raider I know is saying the same thing - old players are leaving and there's very few new guys to take their place, unlike previous expansions. LFR IMO is definitely the culprit here.

Because they are. More people are at max level and more people hit max level easier than ever before. Removing lfr will not bring new players, in fact at this point it's just likely to push more players out. The MISTAKE was obsessing over raiding to the degree that the other forms of content had to go out the back door. The mistake was actually giving raiders what they wanted. Massive bloated raid tiers on a regular schedule with all the challenge they could ask for.

The casual content in sunwell plateau was the actual 1-70 lvling process. After that not much else was left. Maybe arena? *shrug* Tbc was better and more casual friendly then vanilla or the other mmo competition but still a ways away from actually keeping casual players instead of merely churning them over.

- - - Updated - - -

No, excessively difficult normal modes are the culprit.

Absolutely normal modes are excessively difficult for what normal should be. And ultimately yea they aren't welcoming new players into raiding because well it's a trial by fire that few can apparently muster. Those who did muster it did it in tbc when it was relatively much less complex then it is now.

[Lotharion]

The casual content in sunwell plateau was the actual 1-70 lvling process. After that not much else was left. Maybe arena? *shrug* Tbc was better and more casual friendly then vanilla or the other mmo competition but still a ways away from actually keeping casual players instead of merely churning them over.

No it wasn't. Pretty much every raid below Sunwell had 3-4 bosses that casual players could kill. I know this because I raided casually in TBC and killed them. Even Sunwell had 1 or 2 bosses that could be killed without spending excessive amounts of time raiding.

Also, the entirety of Karazhan was aimed at casual raiding.

[Glorious Leader]

No it wasn't. Pretty much every raid below Sunwell had 3-4 bosses that casual players could kill. I know this because I raided casually in TBC and killed them. Even Sunwell had 1 or 2 bosses that could be killed without spending excessive amounts of time raiding.

Also, the entirety of Karazhan was aimed at casual raiding.

My memory of raiding in tbc was anything far from casual and that included karazhan. It was a 5-6 night a week affair that was basically farming 2 or 3 or 4 different raids. BT/Hyjal as well as TK and occasionally SSC. Raiding itself is not a casual activity and it's least casual era was TBC. Period. Raiding has NEVER been a casual activity, it's not designed to be and can't be even with LFR. Casual content in tbc and in vanilla was the lvling experience everything outside of that was so far removed from casual that calling it such is a joke. I mean even in some mythical fairy tale universe where what you said is true your basically saying they had one entire raid to them for what 3 or 4 years (and not just to them hardcores took alts to the place)? Oh yea real good casual content...

[Lotharion]

My memory of raiding in tbc was anything far from casual and that included karazhan. It was a 5-6 night a week affair that was basically farming 2 or 3 or 4 different raids. BT/Hyjal as well as TK and occasionally SSC. Raiding itself is not a casual activity and it's least casual era was TBC. Period. Raiding has NEVER been a casual activity, it's not designed to be and can't be even with LFR. Casual content in tbc and in vanilla was the lvling experience everything outside of that was so far removed from casual that calling it such is a joke.

You're completely wrong. When it was fresh, we would raid Kara twice a week before getting geared enough to move on. We then transitioned to SSC and TK, once again at two nights a week that went for approximately 4 hours. We never killed Vashj or Kael'thas as you may expect. In BT we killed the first 3 bosses before Sunwell was released, at which stage I think I stopped raiding besides the odd attempt at the first boss in Sunwell and trash farming.

Raiding can be as casual as anything else, I say this having raided on both 2 nights a week and 6 nights a week. If you can't sit down for a 3-4 hour block at least once a week, then maybe you shouldn't be raiding. LFR is an absolute piece of crap, it encourages me to AFK with how bored it makes me. The best times I've had in raids were always about working together with 9 friends to kill a difficult boss, take away the difficulty and there's just no point doing it.

[Gungrir]

You're completely wrong. When it was fresh, we would raid Kara twice a week before getting geared enough to move on. We then transitioned to SSC and TK, once again at two nights a week that went for approximately 4 hours. We never killed Vashj or Kael'thas as you may expect. In BT we killed the first 3 bosses before Sunwell was released, at which stage I think I stopped raiding besides the odd attempt at the first boss in Sunwell and trash farming.

Raiding can be as casual as anything else, I say this having raided on both 2 nights a week and 6 nights a week. If you can't sit down for a 3-4 hour block at least once a week, then maybe you shouldn't be raiding. LFR is an absolute piece of crap, it encourages me to AFK with how bored it makes me. The best times I've had in raids were always about working together with 9 friends to kill a difficult boss, take away the difficulty and there's just no point doing it.

There is no way Karazhan was casual content at least it wasn't when we tried to clear it (full clear, first and second week into BC), there where a fair amount of wipes involved before the fights became second nature. TBC was the very definition of casual unfriendly, everything about it was farming either reputation for Heroic Dungeon attunements or mats for raiding and most of the casuals where prolly in normal 5 man dungeons logging in for 1-2 hours at a day or hugging some Sproggans in Zangarmarsch.

[RickJamesLich]

Because they are. More people are at max level and more people hit max level easier than ever before. Removing lfr will not bring new players, in fact at this point it's just likely to push more players out. The MISTAKE was obsessing over raiding to the degree that the other forms of content had to go out the back door. The mistake was actually giving raiders what they wanted. Massive bloated raid tiers on a regular schedule with all the challenge they could ask for.

The casual content in sunwell plateau was the actual 1-70 lvling process. After that not much else was left. Maybe arena? *shrug* Tbc was better and more casual friendly then vanilla or the other mmo competition but still a ways away from actually keeping casual players instead of merely churning them over.

Removing LFR would bring back socialization and challenge... core elements that made WoW what it is in the first place. Having less players that demand nerfs for everything, and replacing them with people that like MMO's, is a good thing IMO. I definitely think in the long run it would bring players back. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.


As for the casual content for Sunwell, PvP, kara, Zul'aman, heroics, craftable gear, interesting dailies, and once the 30% nerf came in, raids. Much better model than just giving them LFR and then very little else. As for giving raiders what they wanted, if the game had weak raids, there wouldn't be much to aspire for, and if there's not much to aspire for, there's no progression, and at that point the game really isn't an MMO anymore, is it?

[Glorious Leader]

You're completely wrong. When it was fresh, we would raid Kara twice a week before getting geared enough to move on. We then transitioned to SSC and TK, once again at two nights a week that went for approximately 4 hours. We never killed Vashj or Kael'thas as you may expect. In BT we killed the first 3 bosses before Sunwell was released, at which stage I think I stopped raiding besides the odd attempt at the first boss in Sunwell and trash farming.

Raiding can be as casual as anything else, I say this having raided on both 2 nights a week and 6 nights a week. If you can't sit down for a 3-4 hour block at least once a week, then maybe you shouldn't be raiding. LFR is an absolute piece of crap, it encourages me to AFK with how bored it makes me. The best times I've had in raids were always about working together with 9 friends to kill a difficult boss, take away the difficulty and there's just no point doing it.

No I'm not wrong just that my experience was different than yours. We were trying to gear up folks (myself included) in older raids while still dedicating nights to to progression in hyjal and bt. It was far from casual (especially if you had ANY turn over in your guild and lost crucial key players) but that's what the raids called for back then and it's ultimately why I stopped.

Raiding is simple not as casual as "anything else". Spending an hour or less in a dungeon is pretty casual. Spending 30 minutes in a scenario is pretty casual. Killing baal in 15 minutes is pretty casual. Raiding is far from all these things. Raiding is not casual content and never will be even in lfr. It is by it's very nature NOT CASUAL and subsequently casuals are not entertained or enthralled with it. If it was then it would have served to engage casuals which it hasn't. At any level.

- - - Updated - - -

Removing LFR would bring back socialization and challenge... core elements that made WoW what it is in the first place. Having less players that demand nerfs for everything, and replacing them with people that like MMO's, is a good thing IMO. I definitely think in the long run it would bring players back. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.


As for the casual content for Sunwell, PvP, kara, Zul'aman, heroics, craftable gear, interesting dailies, and once the 30% nerf came in, raids. Much better model than just giving them LFR and then very little else. As for giving raiders what they wanted, if the game had weak raids, there wouldn't be much to aspire for, and if there's not much to aspire for, there's no progression, and at that point the game really isn't an MMO anymore, is it?

No it wouldn't that's a fairy tale. Removing LFR would basically scale back the production and creation of raids (something I'm all for) but the myth that socialization would return is in no way shape or form falsifiable.

Zul'Aman was not casual friendly. Dailies are not casual friendly nor was crafting gear (both of which we had in mists). Heroics are the only thing on oyur list that may be construed as casual friendly but in their TBC incarnation not so much. After the arduos grind to get revered for the key I would often spend up to 2 hours looking for a group I would then proceed to wipe in the raid for another hour or two and waste my entire night finding replacements for the afks or dcs when wipes invariably happened. That was not an atypical night in tbc heroics and even the developers said somewhere that those heroics while having a broader audience did not have all that much of a broader audience especially relative to heroics in wotlk and cata. Nothing you actually listed was casual friendly as the incredible churn of casual subscribers continued and well didn't keep many of them. Not having raiding does not define the game as an MMO and having something to "aspire" for doesn't make it an mmo either. Or having your particular brand of chocolate to aspire to at any rate. Lots of players simple aspired to gear through dungeons outside of the raid and yet we can't have that because we just HAVE to have raids instead.

[RickJamesLich]

No it wouldn't that's a fairy tale. Removing LFR would basically scale back the production and creation of raids (something I'm all for) but the myth that socialization would return is in no way shape or form falsifiable.

Zul'Aman was not casual friendly. Dailies are not casual friendly nor was crafting gear (both of which we had in mists). Heroics are the only thing on oyur list that may be construed as casual friendly but in their TBC incarnation not so much. After the arduos grind to get revered for the key I would often spend up to 2 hours looking for a group I would then proceed to wipe in the raid for another hour or two and waste my entire night finding replacements for the afks or dcs when wipes invariably happened. That was not an atypical night in tbc heroics and even the developers said somewhere that those heroics while having a broader audience did not have all that much of a broader audience especially relative to heroics in wotlk and cata. Nothing you actually listed was casual friendly as the incredible churn of casual subscribers continued and well didn't keep many of them. Not having raiding does not define the game as an MMO and having something to "aspire" for doesn't make it an mmo either. Or having your particular brand of chocolate to aspire to at any rate. Lots of players simple aspired to gear through dungeons outside of the raid and yet we can't have that because we just HAVE to have raids instead.

Good, solid raids existed long before LFR, it's silly to believe blizz can't make raids without LFR, you seem like a reasonable guy, disagreeing here is just silly. As for socialization returning, definitely possible - just use the system that created it in the first place. As it stands right now, the best routes to progression your character *always* involve teaming up with strangers that you will never meet again, from 1 to 90 and then at 90, unless you can get into regular raids. Zul'Aman definitely was casual friendly, just do the bear and eagle boss and call it a day. Dailies were definitely friendly, it gave people a steady stream of income that didn't exist for many before and they'd take 15 to 30 minutes. Doesn't get more casual than that, and you got cool stuff like bombing run quests which were pretty innovative for the time.

And how were 5 man heroics not casual friendly? A dungeon that took 30 minutes to an hour and that gave you an experience that actually felt like a dungeon. If you're trying to imply that a casual play can't play for 30 minutes, you're just being silly lol.

I guess you're BC experience and mine were much different - I could typically get a group in 10 minutes max, but usually quicker than that. If someone never made friends or was a ninja, or if they played poorly, those were pretty much the only circumstances in which I ever saw someone having trouble with getting a dungeon group. You were saying earlier that MoP is bad for casuals, now you're saying BC was awful for casuals.... let me guess - you think the game has always been bad for casuals, right? Well then how do you explain WoW's massive success over the years?



And not having raiding would kill any sense of progression, one of the core elements of any MMO is progression. If WoW consisted of 5 mans and heroic scenarios and nothing else.... I don't think the game would still be around today.

[Gungrir]

Removing LFR would bring back socialization and challenge... core elements that made WoW what it is in the first place. Having less players that demand nerfs for everything, and replacing them with people that like MMO's, is a good thing IMO. I definitely think in the long run it would bring players back. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here.


As for the casual content for Sunwell, PvP, kara, Zul'aman, heroics, craftable gear, interesting dailies, and once the 30% nerf came in, raids. Much better model than just giving them LFR and then very little else. As for giving raiders what they wanted, if the game had weak raids, there wouldn't be much to aspire for, and if there's not much to aspire for, there's no progression, and at that point the game really isn't an MMO anymore, is it?

They can't remove LFR anymore, you can't give a a huge silverback gorilla a banana and then demand it back, please don't be naive.

[RickJamesLich]

They can't remove LFR anymore, you can't give a a huge silverback gorilla a banana and then demand it back, please don't be naive.

Not saying just remove LFR and replace it with nothing, remove it and give casuals content with meat and potatoes to it. Blizz has done it before and they've got a huge amount of money that they likely aren't putting back into the game, they can do it again if they want to.