Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?

[DrSteveBrule]

That's all that needed to be said. Unfortunately, that's all the game is for casual players right now, and that's why casuals are failing to engage.

Except you're making the mistake again of assuming Casual players are bad and can't be bothered to get better.

This is why there is a confusion between Casual players and Morons.

A casual player can raid. It's not impossible. It's not even impractical.
A bad player can't raid and that's what you're saying.

[Glorious Leader]

A casual player can raid. It's not impossible. It's not even impractical.
.

A casual player is less likely to raid. It's not impossible that he or she will but the reality is that if he or she were already doing that their would be no need for lfr. It is actually wholly impractical. Thus LFR was created. Unfortunately for casual players that's all that's left for them. Hell even the pet battles don't give them character progression.

[Dormie]

Christ your kidding me right. Do you understand that what you know as experience is so fucking limited in the scope of the total number of players who played the game. It's so limited that it's basically MEANINGLESS. Once again we have you saying 1-5% is a silly number based on your experience and we have the developers telling us it's exactly that.

Then how do you explain there almost always being a PuG LFM in trade during BC/Wrath?
I find the 5% number to be bullshit too. The people that didn't raid weren't doing it because they couldn't.

All I know is that BC/Wrath had 10+ million subs while apparently having nothing to do, according to the casual forum goers.

[Glorious Leader]

Then how do you explain there almost always being a PuG LFM in trade during BC/Wrath?
I find the 5% number to be bullshit too. The people that didn't raid weren't doing it because they couldn't.

I mean it's irellevant why they couldn't but they weren't and that's just the point. If they weren't then raiding ceased to be entertaining them and the reality is that they had ZERO POINT ZERO desire or intent to raid because so few of them actually did make the jump to raiding and the minute alternatives were given that rewarded them they abandoned any hope and desire or raiding and simple farmed gear through valor in dungeons.

Their has not always been a pug lfm during bc and wrath. I can think of lots of times their wasn't. Hell on dead servers their wasn't. Once again your narrow frame work and perspective cannot simple account for all of wow. The developers have far better data in this regard and have a far better view. It's like football. Can you see the plays better from ground level of from the spotters in the blimp above?

[Dormie]

I mean it's irellevant why they couldn't but they weren't and that's just the point. If they weren't then raiding ceased to be entertaining them and the reality is that they had ZERO POINT ZERO desire or intent to raid because so few of them actually did make the jump to raiding and the minute alternatives were given that rewarded them they abandoned any hope and desire or raiding and simple farmed gear through valor in dungeons.

Their has not always been a pug lfm during bc and wrath. I can think of lots of times their wasn't. Hell on dead servers their wasn't. Once again your narrow frame work and perspective cannot simple account for all of wow. The developers have far better data in this regard and have a far better view. It's like football. Can you see the plays better from ground level of from the spotters in the blimp above?

It may be irrelevant why they didn't raid, but the point is that they were still playing either way. So obviously not everyone was as bothered as people seem to be about raiding.
And a dead server is a dead server, that's Blizz's problem that they should fix, not design the game around.

Honestly, off the top of my head, this is all I want, and it's really stuff that isn't too much to ask of someone that gives half a shit about the game:

Remove LFR, make normal modes Wrath normal difficulty to allow them to be PuGable.

They won't do this but, add more questing options in classic zones. Rather than the 'questing on rails' system that it is now. Which is fun the first time through, but hardly feels immersive when your being forced through a story that you have no control over. What if I don't want to kill those animals? Oh I have to or else I won't get the next quest to continue the chain.

BUFF ALL quest mobs. It's a joke right now, literally it is broken gameplay. You can hardly pull too many mobs.

Make heroics harder. They don't need to be super crazy, but again, broken gameplay. When you don't even really need a healer anymore, yet queing requires a healer role, that is broken. There is no reason for them to be as faceroll as they are.

Make classes more unique. They aren't TOO far from being able to do that, they just need to give some classes a bit more style to make you feel like your actually playing a warrior, shaman, etc.

Make gold mean something again. That's is half the reason people hate dailys now. People used actually do dailys just for the gold, because 110 g was pretty useful. But now that you get 20-30g every 5 minutes, the gold that dailys gives becomes mostly meaningless, making it just feel like a rep grind.


I know I'm missing some thoughts I had earlier but you get the idea. If it were me I would also remove LFG teleporting you to the dungeon, have it only put the group together for you. It makes no sense that we can teleport straight into an enemies lair. Honestly it would be lorebreaking if it were realistic to be able to teleport anywhere in WoWs world. Teleport behind Garrosh, cut his throat, teleport away.

[Glorious Leader]

It may be irrelevant why they didn't raid, but the point is that they were still playing either way. So obviously not everyone was as bothered as people seem to be about raiding.
And a dead server is a dead server, that's Blizz's problem that they should fix, not design the game around.

The conditions that existed for Blizzard to make raids for such tiny minorities no longer exist. Actually in reality they weren't still playing. They were quitting by and large and just being replaced at a better rate than they are now. In addition to this the replacements that came in basically were starting out at lvling, they were not at max lvl and not needing max level entertainment. You literally cannot unwind this. UNless you do some kind of latter reset their are too many casual players at max level who need to be entertained. If the developers are going to continue to make raids then the needs of those players to be entertained will demand lfr.

[Dormie]

The conditions that existed for Blizzard to make raids for such tiny minorities no longer exist. Actually in reality they weren't still playing. They were quitting by and large and just being replaced at a better rate than they are now. In addition to this the replacements that came in basically were starting out at lvling, they were not at max lvl and not needing max level entertainment. You literally cannot unwind this. UNless you do some kind of latter reset their are too many casual players at max level who need to be entertained. If the developers are going to continue to make raids then the needs of those players to be entertained will demand lfr.

And I would have 0 problems with LFR if it were normal difficulty(and if normal difficulty was that of Wraths).
When you can just walk in and push over Garrosh/Deathwing, it completely trivializes the lore and build up of those characters.
Keep in mind that when I talk about LFR/heroic 5 man difficulty being too easy, I'm a healer. I see the healthbars. In the 5 mans the healthbars barely budge, and in LFR they go down for about 15 seconds, in which time all you do is spam your AoE heals.
It is braindead gameplay, and SHOULD be unacceptable in a game with WoWs reputation.

[Destinas]

I've never really understood the arguments that casual players ruined the game. I don't feel it's ruined, personally. If someone is so "casual" that they don't want to do LFR, dailies, etc, then they don't have to. If someone is so "hardcore" that they want to do the hardest difficulty of raids, then they can do so. The system can be improved, but this is the best way for everyone to get as close to what they want as possible...at least I see it that way.

And as far as who to blame, don't blame players that have a different play style than yourself. Voice your concerns to Blizzard, who decided to let more people raid, and make more "casual" things to do throughout this entire expansion. They were the ones who implemented LFR - not casual players. They were the ones that chose to let more people see raids - not casual players. They were the ones who designed every expansion - not casual players. I, personally, see no major problems, just some things that could be tweaked a little. I like how things are now, for the most part. But I try to mind my own business, and I have fun in my own way that doesn't affect other people - basically caring only what I do, not others.

[Glorious Leader]

And I would have 0 problems with LFR if it were normal difficulty(and if normal difficulty was that of Wraths).
When you can just walk in and push over Garrosh/Deathwing, it completely trivializes the lore and build up of those characters.
Keep in mind that when I talk about LFR/heroic 5 man difficulty being too easy, I'm a healer. I see the healthbars. In the 5 mans the healthbars barely budge, and in LFR they go down for about 15 seconds, in which time all you do is spam your AoE heals.
It is braindead gameplay, and SHOULD be unacceptable in a game with WoWs reputation.

I have zero problems with them getting rid of lfr entirely. Honestly. If that means raiding goes out the window or gets severly cut back and reduced. Okay. Good.

[Dormie]

I have zero problems with them getting rid of lfr entirely. Honestly. If that means raiding goes out the window or gets severly cut back and reduced. Okay. Good.

WoW wouldn't last a day without a sound raiding foundation.

[Glorious Leader]

WoW wouldn't last a day without a sound raiding foundation.

Considering how few people actually did raiding I'm not sure how anybody actually thinks this is true. The mere implementation of lfr should suggest to you that the developers have to take EXTRAORDINARY steps to make that content relevant to people.

Oddly enough though the developers probably share that sentiment. That's EXACTLY why lfr was introduced. Without it raiding or raid content would become really weak sauce.

[Dormie]

Considering how few people actually did raiding I'm not sure how anybody actually thinks this is true. The mere implementation of lfr should suggest to you that the developers have to take EXTRAORDINARY steps to make that content relevant to people.

Oddly enough though the developers probably share that sentiment. That's EXACTLY why lfr was introduced. Without it raiding or raid content would become really weak sauce.

And what do you think will replace it? LFR is peoples way of getting their raiding fix, if there's no raids there's no LFR.

[Glorious Leader]

And what do you think will replace it? LFR is peoples way of getting their raiding fix, if there's no raids there's no LFR.

*shrug* something obviously. LFR isn't about getting a raiding fix, it's about getting their character progression fix. Don't confuse the two. People aren't necessarilly ineterested in but we know they are interested in chasing gear and subsequently anything that could possible serve to draw people away from lfr (either content or reward) has to be neutered. If raiding goes and so does lfr they'd simple put the reward behind some other play style, maybe dungeons or something new they invent. I mean theirs no law of nature that says raiding has to be. They hyper focus on raiding sucks and is primarily done out of economic interest. Granted long term the whole skinner box thing is probably not very good (although you can make the case wow has always been about that)but we'll how many of you would do heroic raids if their was no gear behind it?

[Deleted]

Casuals didnt ruin WoW, blizzard did. Imo it was by features like LFR or random dungeons etc where they took out the need for the community aspect of the game.
I would give this to the TBC the time when I started playing and by this the game completly consumed me - which was awesome by that time - and it was by the sole
need for community and teamplay, good behaviour in /2 etc if you wanted to achieve something etc.
But with features like LFR or random dungeon all this is gone, you dont need to know anyone outside your guild and you just push a button and play with people you will propably never meet again. I guess you can guess the rest by yourselves.
I understand these are stepping stones for smoother transitions into normal raids, but still..

[MoanaLisa]

And what do you think will replace it? LFR is peoples way of getting their raiding fix, if there's no raids there's no LFR.

How about this? Instead of three tiers of raids over the course of a year you would get somewhere in the neighborhood of nearly 30 additional dungeons: normal, heroic, something in the difficulty neighborhood of a CM dungeon and something with scalable technology like flex that will run from 3-10 players. Planned to be released sequentially one new dungeon every two weeks with story arcs across sets of dungeons, etc. Alternate weeks would feature a new scenario in both normal/heroic difficulties that would also scale from 3-10 players or even more I suppose. The scenarios would support the story arcs in the dungeons as well as telling additional stories. That would be the instanced content.

It took me exactly two minutes to come up with that idea. I'm sure Blizzard--if they desired to--could think of even better ideas. Something like that would probably take a lot of the sting out of not having raids around for those who don't partake in normal/heroic raiding.

Not that Blizzard would ever do this because raids are a signature thing about WoW. But that sort of MMO expansion design--which Blizzard is entirely capable of doing--would have some legs.

Something like that would tend to engage people, especially 'casual' players (whatever they are), in a way they might not be now.How many MMO's of different types are talking about releasing content on a bi-weekly or monthly basis? This model of content release--even if not specifically my idea--is the next big thing.

[Chrno]

They even admit the hardcore thing in Cata was a complete disaster and even better hahaha because of It's name ''Cataclysm'' :P

Except that cata wasn't hardcore. The game never was and most likely never will be.

[vesseblah]

Except that cata wasn't hardcore. The game never was and most likely never will be.

It was more hardcore than previous expansion WLK, that's the problem.

WoW's difficulty did not turn down with WLK like some forum trolls like to think (and claim). Instead it was on steady downward curve from launch in 2004 and turned up with Cataclysm.

[DrSteveBrule]

How about this? Instead of three tiers of raids over the course of a year you would get somewhere in the neighborhood of nearly 30 additional dungeons: normal, heroic, something in the difficulty neighborhood of a CM dungeon and something with scalable technology like flex that will run from 3-10 players. Planned to be released sequentially one new dungeon every two weeks with story arcs across sets of dungeons, etc. Alternate weeks would feature a new scenario in both normal/heroic difficulties that would also scale from 3-10 players or even more I suppose. The scenarios would support the story arcs in the dungeons as well as telling additional stories. That would be the instanced content.

Dungeons. Raids. You guys seriously overestimate the difference.

But the difference is Raids last longer, or, are suppose to.
With dungeons, you'd have to gate them again which no one likes.

I'm actually not opposed to this idea for two reasons: LFR and Flex.

With LFR and Flex you kind of defeat the purpose of lasting end game content.
The amount of dungeons needed to cover a raid tier would've been quite a few but now that players can limp dick the final boss in the face while blindfolded it may only require 3 or 4 dungeons.

[Pootis]

Casuals didn't "ruin" the game and I have nothing whatsoever against them, I'm sure they have things to do in life that are more important than a video game. Blizzard ruined their own game by catering to them, while keeping really no drive for hardcore players.

[Ronduwil]

A casual player can raid. It's not impossible. It's not even impractical.
A bad player can't raid and that's what you're saying.

A casual player doesn't want to set aside the time to raid. That's what you won't understand. Of course they can raid! Anyone can raid. A casual player can't (or won't) regularly allocate a solid 2-4 hour block of time that they devote exclusively to the freaking game, and that's what is required to raid effectively. What's so hard to understand about that? It's not about ability. It's about desire. You say "bothered to get better" as if raiding were some sort of magical self-improvement program that everyone should aspire to. It's not. My entire argument was the PvE content for casual players (or anyone else for that matter) is raiding and casuals generally don't like to raid. Not because they're morons (that was your claim, not mine). Not because they are unskilled. Not because they can't. It's because they want to play casually and raiding is not a casual activity. Any activity where I have to focus exclusively on the game for more than 30 minutes at a time is not casual. I'll tell you what. You go into a raid and 30 minutes in tell the group that you have to AFK for about 20 minutes and see how long it takes to be /kicked. See if you get invited back again.