Did casuals ruin WoW and if so how?

[Tomana]

Cataclysm and MoP are less casual than Wotlk and previous expansions? Is this a joke? Random casuals in LFR were killing Deathwing with ease on the same week he got released and you think that is less casual than gated ICC and other things in Wotlk ?

That is because you conveniently consider the most casual-friendly patch in Cata. But what about early Cata with 2 hour heroics and no LFR? Or early MOP with the huge amount of dailies to be done for rep?

Compared to those WOTLK was more accessible.

[Deleted]

I love how people keep going on about Vanilla/TBC being hard, yet when you look at vids from so called "hard" content back then you realise how bad people were. We've gotten some great fights over the last expansions and personally I've enjoyed ToT a shitload. I'm pretty sure that if Blizzard would've kept things Vanilla style we would have seen even lower sub numbers today, nostalgia is a subjective matter, objectively on the other hand, very few people would agree that vanilla generally > MoP.

[Phasma]

I love how people keep going on about Vanilla/TBC being hard, yet when you look at vids from so called "hard" content back then you realise how bad people were. We've gotten some great fights over the last expansions and personally I've enjoyed ToT a shitload. I'm pretty sure that if Blizzard would've kept things Vanilla style we would have seen even lower sub numbers today, nostalgia is a subjective matter, objectively on the other hand, very few people would agree that vanilla generally > MoP.

Vanilla was only bad because there was no variety. If that type of raiding existed today and all the features that were included with the expansions were introduced, it would be a different story.

[Deleted]

So it's true then, you either die hardcore or live long enough to see yourself become the casual.

I'd love Blizz to throw in what D and D does excellently in that it has several difficulty modes catered to people who like a challenge or those who simply want to clear a dungeon ^^

[vesseblah]

Lets talk about what other game companies in other genre's do. Maybe that might be a good indication of what is wrong.

Shooters for an example - everyone is on the same playing field, things are not made easier for casuals.

Every shooter has a selectable difficulty of easy-normal-hard when you start playing it, some have even 4th or 5th option. That "easy" is the made for casuals option. You can't be so blind or obtuse to not see that.

And yes, most elites can be soloed even Vanilla, bar 5 man required ones. Matter of knowing how, you are just one of the players who never tried

It depends more on class than lack of trying. Classes that can tank (with pet or by themselves) have always been in advantage when it comes to soloing content from vanilla to MoP. That's why tanks were the first classes to be able to solo dungeon bosses.

[championknight]

It depends more on class than lack of trying. Classes that can tank (with pet or by themselves) have always been in advantage when it comes to soloing content from vanilla to MoP. That's why tanks were the first classes to be able to solo dungeon bosses.

Not sure if you were playing the same game but...

- Rogues soloed Hearthglen much easier than any of the other classes, careful use of Stealth is necessary

- Warriors are severely limited in their soloing due to rage mechanics and lack of self healing, Feral Druids are also affected but less so due to mana issues

- A SPriest has an easy time soloing elites with heal on damage and MC in some situations

- Warlock Blueberries are crap at tanking in Vanilla even on normal mobs

Of course, this didn't stop players of all classes trying and some of them succeeding and teaching others how to do it, which IMO should be the way the game is learnt instead of being babied by Blizzard all the way

[nekobaka]

That is because you conveniently consider the most casual-friendly patch in Cata. But what about early Cata with 2 hour heroics and no LFR? Or early MOP with the huge amount of dailies to be done for rep?

Compared to those WOTLK was more accessible.

If you are going to throw in two hour heroics then I will throw in players complaints of waiting multiple hours just to fill a group on top of having to fly to the dungeon and run it which took at least half an hour to an hour or more and having to find replacement players being a pain in the ass resulting in more downtime or a disbanded group. The troubles of having to replace a player was often enough to force groups to work together with the group they had. Then there was heroic lockouts set to a day along with the VP equivalent reward rate of only running dungeons in WotLK being significantly lower than that of a player who full cleared both 10 and 25 man raids along with running a daily heroic and a weekly raid boss compared to Cata which equalized the gaps and vastly increased the rewards from running heroics.

So pick your poison.

[Diablade]

I hate casual guilds. Wiping endlessly to the same boss because your raid team is trash is a giant waste of time. I'm currently looking for a new guild and I'm going to shoot myself if I get another guild that says they are semi-casual. Like, no youre not semi casual or semi hardcore. Youre casual, you don't care that your raider is causing you to waste hours of your life every week and the only reason they are in the raid is because they are your friend or you have an e-crush on them.

[wych]

I hate casual guilds. Wiping endlessly to the same boss because your raid team is trash is a giant waste of time. I'm currently looking for a new guild and I'm going to shoot myself if I get another guild that says they are semi-casual. Like, no youre not semi casual or semi hardcore. Youre casual, you don't care that your raider is causing you to waste hours of your life every week and the only reason they are in the raid is because they are your friend or you have an e-crush on them.

Just because a guild is casual does not automatically imply it's full of bad players.

Whilst the frequency of poor casual players is probably higher than hardcore, almost by definition, there's still a LOT of casual players who are good enough not to endlessly wipe.

My guild in TBC was "casual" yet it killed everything pre Sunwell Plateu pre-nerf, it's all about finding a group of competent players and a leader who knows what he's doing

[LeperHerring]

How many hours did your parents spend playing video games? How about the guys who busted their butts building the house/apartment in which you live? How many hours a day do you think they spend playing?

They spent about the same amount of time watching TV instead, what's your point?

I wish I had 12 hours a day to devote to playing WoW. Unfortunately I have a family to feed and a mortgage to pay off. I guess I'll just have to remain "lazy and entitled" because my "poor character" compels me to prioritize shelter and family over a computer game.

That's utter nonsense. My guild raided 2-3 nights per week since TBC and cleared most of the content in the game (including hardmodes). We had doctors and surgeons with families, we had people working on their M.Sc.s etc. It's a hobby like any other, you don't need 12 hours per day, if you can schedule 2-3 nights per week, it's enough time-wise. Your problem is not that you have a family and mortgage, your problem is that you're bad at the game and instead of trying to improve, you cry to Blizzard to give you everything with no effort.

[Osmeric]

People who ruin WoW: "Give me stuff or I will cancel my sub!!!"

If someone isn't engaged enough with the game to keep paying for it, that's the fault of the game designers. A consumer's right to dictate what does and does not satisfy them is inalienable.

[Orcindauh]

Wat

Casuals have been here since beta.

The word "casual" has many meanings.

What do you also mean by "ruin". The game has made amazing improvements over time, some aspects of the game may have gotten worse but for the most part the game is fine. The only thing that can really "ruin" the game is it's old age.

[melodramocracy]

tldr dont feel entitled because you have too much time on your hands. Your 15 bucks is worth the same as mine.

Demanding that a hobby be tailored to you specifically rather than simply finding one that suits you better is probably one of the best examples of entitlement I can think of, so your post is delightfully ironic.

[Tomana]

That's utter nonsense. My guild raided 2-3 nights per week since TBC and cleared most of the content in the game (including hardmodes). We had doctors and surgeons with families, we had people working on their M.Sc.s etc. It's a hobby like any other, you don't need 12 hours per day, if you can schedule 2-3 nights per week, it's enough time-wise. Your problem is not that you have a family and mortgage, your problem is that you're bad at the game and instead of trying to improve, you cry to Blizzard to give you everything with no effort.

Some people can no longer afford scheduling even 2-3 nights a week.
Also M.Sc = student = lots of time to waste despite all the BS they will tell you.

- - - Updated - - -

If you are going to throw in two hour heroics then I will throw in players complaints of waiting multiple hours just to fill a group on top of having to fly to the dungeon and run it which took at least half an hour to an hour or more and having to find replacement players being a pain in the ass resulting in more downtime or a disbanded group. The troubles of having to replace a player was often enough to force groups to work together with the group they had. Then there was heroic lockouts set to a day along with the VP equivalent reward rate of only running dungeons in WotLK being significantly lower than that of a player who full cleared both 10 and 25 man raids along with running a daily heroic and a weekly raid boss compared to Cata which equalized the gaps and vastly increased the rewards from running heroics.

So pick your poison.

Look, I'm not saying WOTLK pre-LFD was perfect, because it wasn't. Forming your groups manually was indeed a pain, but at least the heroics were more accessible than early cata. Also, the daily heroic made people run at least that heroic on a given day, concentrating the players. Plus, you could purchase a lot of stuff (including previous tier sets) with badges. But 3.3 and the months of ICC that followed allowed a lot of players to enjoy the game.

It wasn't a perfect system and the devs prolly knew it, but instead of building upon it, they listened to some morons and made early Cata. This was imo the biggest mistake they made.

[ihatepeople]

Casuals don't ruin WoW, by definition I'm a casual since I've stopped raiding for the most part and don't play much anymore. I would say that feelings of entitlement (on all levels) ruins WoW from a player standpoint.

[Deleted]

If someone isn't engaged enough with the game to keep paying for it, that's the fault of the game designers. A consumer's right to dictate what does and does not satisfy them is inalienable.

And nothing good comes by when Blizzard caters to what players want more then what they need. Two very different things sometimes.

As requested my quick definition of LFR hero:
A customer who plays WoW as a solo game, only keeps his/her subscription for few months per expansion and generally doesn't care for the game, it's mechanics or lore. An LFR hero keeps complaining and feels entitled to everything concerning gear and content. It should be catered to his/her needs or otherwise he/she threatens with cancelling the subscription. It is no use talking to an LFR hero, because he/she doesn't accept logical arguments, wether by Blizzard or other players.

[Osmeric]

And nothing good comes by when Blizzard caters to what players want more then what they need. Two very different things sometimes.

So, you're ok with Blizzard ignoring what you say you want? Just to make sure we're not being hypocritical here.

[Deleted]

So, you're ok with Blizzard ignoring what you say you want? Just to make sure we're not being hypocritical here.

Yep, I'm ok with that, because I'm not right all the time. Blizzard should do what is best for the game. Now I have different views, especially concerning LFR. But I don't feel entitled that Blizzard should cater to my wishes when it goes against the health of the game.

[Ronduwil]

You are right to work for more substantial things in real life that will probably last longer than the things in WoW. But if a player can't be arsed to put enough effort into the game they havent earned the right to anything despite what they pay to play for the game. You wouldnt want a selfplaying Super Mario Bros right?

Here's the thing: the players don't have to earn anything because they're the ones in control of this situation! I don't want a self-player Super Mario Brothers, but on the other hand if I had gotten a level where I simply ran to the right for five minutes immediately followed by one where I was constantly avoiding barrages of fireballs I would have immediately returned the game (actually it came free so I would simply not have played it again). Maybe I'm not entitled to run raid content on the most difficult level, but I'm also not obligated to continue to pay for a game that provides me with nothing but dailies. The thing is that it's not my loss. Blizzard wants my $15 per month. I'm not begging to throw my money at them. That's why the burden is on them to provide all players with content they can enjoy.

What you're dead wrong in is that the people who look into parses, strategies and similar things are lazy. Its a hobby they take very serious. Most are managing a reallife on top of that very sucessefully.

Read that post again because I worded it very carefully. I called those people "the fortunate few." The lazy and entitled ones are the subset of that population that demands to play only with the very best. The ones who expect that everyone else that they play with should devote their life to a game like they did are displaying a sense of entitlement. Their refusal to share their knowledge with others, opting instead to insult them and troll their LFR groups is sheer laziness. Instead of saying, "Gee I'm lucky to have the time and resources to master a game at such a high level," they opt to brood on others' perceived lack of effort. That's their problem. It's not the casuals' fault that they're like that.

The only casuals that are ruining it for wow economically is the ones who play for a month or two and then unsub after a few lfr/normal clears until the next tier. There's a shitload of thoose.

A MMO is not a charity. I'm not obligated to fund it for everyone else's enjoyment. If Blizzard only puts out two months worth of heroic dungeons or gives me two months worth of gear upgrades I have every right to get bored and leave. Blizzard is ruining it for WoW economically by shifting all their resources into raiding. Don't put blame where it doesn't belong.

Case in point:

I unsub after one month when a new patch launches nowadays. Why? Saw the content they made and i like the fact that others can enjoy it more if they want to but i don't have the fucking time anymore.

elsewhise there is NOTHING that keeps me playing the game. MoP is one big grind, maybe timeless isle prooves interesting but i can't see me playing that for over 1 month without knowing everything on there.

Blizzard wants people to sub regularly which is why the lfr/normalmode crowd probably brings in the most money since they are the biggest in numbers. It's probably also the reason to why blizzard wants to put out content in a higher pace - to make sure as few people as possible unsub inbetween tiers.

Well they're going about it the wrong way. The idea that raiding, in any form, is going to engage casual players is pure delusion.

[Osmeric]

Yep, I'm ok with that, because I'm not right all the time. Blizzard should do what is best for the game. Now I have different views, especially concerning LFR. But I don't feel entitled that Blizzard should cater to my wishes when it goes against the health of the game.

So, we're actually in agreement. I don't think Blizzard should do what I want either, just because I personally happen to prefer it.

What I DO think is that Blizzard should follow long term desires of the player (and potential player) population as a whole, as best they can, not that of a much smaller minority. And I think they could have done a much better job of this.