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  1. #401
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I think I did a reasonable job of establishing the criteria on which I based my opinions. I chalk it up to mere logic. Casuals didn't ruin WoW. Narcissistic attitudes on the part of players and game designers did.
    Well that sure was entertaining. Completely wrong. But entertaining nonetheless. You're seeing things that you want to see, not what's actually there. It all goes back to your need to see more skilled players as having some major flaws, which you will then invent for them. It's an ego defense of yours.

    The reality is that more skilled players are not sociopaths, or narcissist, or anything else you'd like to brand them as. Sure there are such players, but they don't correlate with any particular skill level. It's just that you need to see the people who are more skilled, and therefore achieve more than you, as such. Going to ridiculous lengths like thinking that end-game raiders are only doing what they do, putting in countless hours every day, to get gear just so they can impress you. Talk about narcissism.

  2. #402
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    Well that sure was entertaining. Completely wrong. But entertaining nonetheless. You're seeing things that you want to see, not what's actually there. It all goes back to your need to see more skilled players as having some major flaws, which you will then invent for them. It's an ego defense of yours.

    The reality is that more skilled players are not sociopaths, or narcissist, or anything else you'd like to brand them as. Sure there are such players, but they don't correlate with any particular skill level. It's just that you need to see the people who are more skilled, and therefore achieve more than you, as such. Going to ridiculous lengths like thinking that end-game raiders are only doing what they do, putting in countless hours every day, to get gear just so they can impress you. Talk about narcissism.
    I wasn't talking about skilled players. I was talking about you. More specifically, I was talking about your posts. Maybe you're actually a nice guy RL but your posts just come off as narcissistic. Sadly, the fact that you can't see the distinction underscores my point.
    Last edited by Ronduwil; 2013-09-05 at 08:31 PM.

  3. #403
    Spam Assassin! MoanaLisa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meme Arrows to green text View Post
    I still don't understand why they thought suddenly quadrupling the modes of a single raid was a good idea.

    Went from 25man or gtfo to 10/25 normal/hard.

    Then people rolled the idea and eventually that split off even further with lfr, flex and queueing with everything.
    Because they wanted more people to raid. Specifically, they wanted those that had never raided to have it accessible. It's as simple as that. Whatever you think about Blizzard, the game, the devs or anything else associated with it, raiding is and has always been the design crown jewel of the game in terms of the care they take to make it. WoW without raids is pretty much another game. When only 10-15 percent of all players are playing in that content then that's a problem. It's expensive to produce and once the game population arc flattens and starts to go downslope there's no viable business reason to build expensive content for just a relative few people. So first 10's then LFR, then flex and everything else have all been designed to make raiding more and more accessible to all.

    Like it or not, just look at it and think about it and it's clear that that is how it works and what has happened.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by melodramocracy View Post
    Let me ask you this. Is killing an LFR boss as rewarding as defeating one that you've been working on for a few weeks? The whole 'pride' thing has nothing to do with knowing someone else can't clear a given hurdle (or even caring what anyone else does to begin with), but it's more about earning vs. being given an accomplishment.
    You didn't ask me that but I'll exercise my forum rights to answer anyway .

    No, it's not. However there comes a point with some bosses where the frustration of wiping makes the first time you finally get him down not so much a triumph as a relief. That's subjective of course but it's not good either. Some people have the mentality to fail 100 times at a task--often for nothing they did wrong--and many others don't. I admire the ones that can do that but I'm not one of them.

    Neither should necessarily be criticized. It's just different. It doesn't make you a better or worse player.
    Last edited by MoanaLisa; 2013-09-05 at 08:57 PM.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  4. #404
    Quote Originally Posted by enchanted View Post
    Please explain how wow was casual back in vanilla and tbc.
    Compared to EQ1, EQ2 and Ultima Online... WoW Vanilla was as complicated as Tic-Tac Toe.

  5. #405
    The Lightbringer Toxigen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Compared to EQ1, EQ2 and Ultima Online... WoW Vanilla was as complicated as Tic-Tac Toe.
    Let's not forget Asheron's Call.

    Also, this video says it all, really.

    "There are two types of guys in this world. Guys who sniff their fingers after scratching their balls, and dirty fucking liars." -StylesClashv3
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalis View Post
    Not finding-a-cock-on-your-girlfriend-is-normal level of odd, but nevertheless, still odd.

  6. #406
    Quote Originally Posted by Toxigen View Post
    Let's not forget Asheron's Call.

    Also, this video says it all, really.
    Not that video again. All that video says is that trolls no longer garner undue attention by ruining everyone else's pugging experience in LFR. I think that's a good thing. When I'm grouped with 24 complete strangers I'm happy that my raid won't wipe because some nitwit didn't have the sense to utilize their class's key abilities (poison on daggers in his case).

  7. #407
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    Quote Originally Posted by mvallas View Post
    Compared to EQ1, EQ2 and Ultima Online... WoW Vanilla was as complicated as Tic-Tac Toe.
    Ahh thnx for pointing that out. Forgot about how wow competed with these mmo's back then.

  8. #408
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    I wasn't talking about skilled players. I was talking about you. More specifically, I was talking about your posts. Maybe you're actually a nice guy RL but your posts just come off as narcissistic. Sadly, the fact that you can't see the distinction underscores my point.
    And what I'm saying is that you only think my posts come off as narcissistic because it's an ego defense mechanism of yours. I bet I can take a list like yours and lift comments out of context for any user with 500+ posts that superficially appears to match (not that the quotes you lifted even matched the definitions you posted).

  9. #409
    Dreadlord Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ronduwil View Post
    Not that video again. All that video says is that trolls no longer garner undue attention by ruining everyone else's pugging experience in LFR. I think that's a good thing. When I'm grouped with 24 complete strangers I'm happy that my raid won't wipe because some nitwit didn't have the sense to utilize their class's key abilities (poison on daggers in his case).
    That's not what the video is about at all, but i can see why you would only see that side of it. The video only really highlights the idea that very new players to wow don't know any better when it comes to what allot of us more seasoned players take for granted. That is the whole gearing up process, min/maxing your gems/enchants what items you use, or the whole process of seeking out quality guilds, the idea of a Journey.

    Back in less forgiving expansions like TBC, content before raiding had some challenge and the focus on was group content so getting away with afk'ing 5 mans or LFR wasn't an option if you wanted to "see the content", you would have to put forth more base effort to get the same results. This process made players better as a result or more willing to fine tune what they were doing to be more efficient at things, then that leads into raiding 25 man's or 10 mans and carrying that min/max spirit there and so forth.

    There isn't anything in MoP that pushes people towards that ultimate goal or anything that prepares them for normal mode raiding, sure some will argue that "normal modes are way too overtuned" but that just feeds into the game not challenging people prior to that point so of course ToT would seem that way.

    Why do you think Proving Grounds and Flex Mode Raids are being created? They are an attempt to help advance players stuck in that hit 90->5mans->LFR->What Next? Cycle.

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  10. #410
    I personally feel like the whole casual attitude ruined the general feeling of WoW. I understand why there are so many casuals, I understand why Blizzard are going the way they are with LFR and flex etc - I totally get that, but I personally feel like - If EVERYONE was able to raid properly, the game would be more fun as a whole. Unfortunately, some people can't/don't want to so there 'has' (not really) to be alternatives for them otherwise the game will go down the tubes.

  11. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zypherz View Post
    I personally feel like the whole casual attitude ruined the general feeling of WoW. I understand why there are so many casuals, I understand why Blizzard are going the way they are with LFR and flex etc - I totally get that, but I personally feel like - If EVERYONE was able to raid properly, the game would be more fun as a whole. Unfortunately, some people can't/don't want to so there 'has' (not really) to be alternatives for them otherwise the game will go down the tubes.
    Jesus Christ...

    Prior to LFD/LFR, for one to be able to raid 'properly' - or rather to be able to dungeon-delve/raid AT ALL - was to EITHER have plenty of free time to use up on gaming OR be a part of a decent raiding guild. Notice how both factors have N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with 'ability' to properly pursue these activities.

  12. #412
    Quote Originally Posted by Paarthurnax View Post
    That's not what the video is about at all, but i can see why you would only see that side of it. The video only really highlights the idea that very new players to wow don't know any better when it comes to what allot of us more seasoned players take for granted. That is the whole gearing up process, min/maxing your gems/enchants what items you use, or the whole process of seeking out quality guilds, the idea of a Journey.
    Except that video is based on two very flawed premises.

    1) Players who are new to WoW will not think about gearing and completing ToT LFR in record time as their main focus. They're happy exploring stuff that jaded veterans don't even think about, and they do not know of all possible shortcuts you can take at level 90.

    2) More importantly new players most often are actively seeking out guilds, and even recruited to guilds from level 1 onwards. It depends on your luck with realm and guild, but I'd like to believe most of those do not teach players to be antisocial assholes like the "hero" of the video.
    Never going to log into this garbage forum again as long as calling obvious troll obvious troll is the easiest way to get banned.
    Trolling should be.

  13. #413
    Quote Originally Posted by Antoine de Coolette View Post
    Jesus Christ...

    Prior to LFD/LFR, for one to be able to raid 'properly' - or rather to be able to dungeon-delve/raid AT ALL - was to EITHER have plenty of free time to use up on gaming OR be a part of a decent raiding guild. Notice how both factors have N-O-T-H-I-N-G to do with 'ability' to properly pursue these activities.
    Or make friends rather than aiming to make a multiplayer game single player

  14. #414
    Quote Originally Posted by LeperHerring View Post
    And what I'm saying is that you only think my posts come off as narcissistic because it's an ego defense mechanism of yours.
    And I'm saying that doesn't make any sense because I had no trouble being invited to raids and/or acquiring gear at the time I unsubscribed so your constant refrain along the lines of, "L2P if you want teh epicz, noob," doesn't even apply to me. I'm not the one calling for LFR to be removed so that I can feel special about my tier gear. I'm not the one demanding that everyone be forced to only raid heroics so that I can muster up the motivation to raid again. I could care less about what others do and don't have. My problem with the game is that it excludes most of the players that I actually enjoy spending time with and encourages anti-social behavior. Maybe you enjoyed telling your friends that you can no longer raid with them because they just can't squeeze out the extra 10k DPS needed for the current fight, but that isn't such a great feeling for me. That has nothing to do with my ego and everything to do with wanting to play a game that is actually fun and doesn't throw off my sleep cycle.

    Of course you wouldn't understand that because everything to you is in terms of bads and l33ts and if you're not l33t you're bad and should feel bad about it. In your mind the burden is on every player to "better" themselves to the point where they can fully appreciate "true raiding."

    I'm sorry to say that business just doesn't work that way. Steak is better than burgers but the level of commitment required to spend $3 for a Big Mac is far lower than dropping $20 at my local steakhouse. That's why McDonalds serves billions while the steakhouse remains local. Steaks may be better, but I'm not about to insult those who are stuck with burgers. More importantly, I'm not going to make the ridiculous claim that if McDonalds removed most of their burger options and replaced them with $20 steaks they would miraculously start making more money. Unfortunately that's the narcissistic thinking expressed by many (not all, but many) wannabe raiders on this forum.

  15. #415
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post

    Truth of the matter is, every last player WoW has is a casual.
    What a ridiculous statement that is.

  16. #416
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Not when you realise just how broad the term "casual" actually is.
    Well obviously, casual is a very vague term but it has a limit of acceptability.

    Let's push your theory to the limit, are world first raiders who raid 12+ hours a day when content is released and have their alts waiting outside fully geared and ready to go in case the next fight requires that class to be stacked a casual?

    Absolutely not.

    I'd say the limit of being a casual is spending 16 or so hours a week on the game personally, others may feel differently, but it does have a limit after which it completely loses meaning

  17. #417
    Warchief Themerlin's Avatar
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    Yup casuals ruined everything, including global warming/cooling!

    I started playing at BC and since Cataclysm, the attitude with players changed in WoW. I stopped playing. I don't think it is the casual community, it is the community in general.

  18. #418
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by UnifiedDivide View Post
    Is it bad that just the title alone made me LOL? The posts made in the thread had me in stitches though...

    Truth of the matter is, every last player WoW has/had is a casual. The game was made from the off to be the easiest MMO available. The game has only become easier for long time players simply because they have a vast knowledge of how the game works.

    The only problem people in this game have is no longer being able to show off and being able to keep people out of content they deem others unworthy of. The days of the WoW epeen are long past folks.

    The day you folks stop slapping derogatory labels on each other and just aim to have fun with one another is the day you actually see a community.
    No one was keeping anyone out of anything. If you wanted to raid you just needed to make friends, make a guild and learn your class and the encounters. While it certainly wasn't easy to make a successful raiding guild in vanilla or TBC, it became much easier when raids became 10 mannable.

    A community is born from mutual dependence. In other words, people need each other. Unless they need each other again you won't see a community not unless you are either extremely determined or lucky.

  19. #419
    Quote Originally Posted by Garian View Post
    No one was keeping anyone out of anything. If you wanted to raid you just needed to make friends, make a guild and learn your class and the encounters. While it certainly wasn't easy to make a successful raiding guild in vanilla or TBC, it became much easier when raids became 10 mannable.

    A community is born from mutual dependence. In other words, people need each other. Unless they need each other again you won't see a community not unless you are either extremely determined or lucky.
    Perfectly put

  20. #420
    Dreadlord Paarthurnax's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vesseblah View Post
    Except that video is based on two very flawed premises.

    1) Players who are new to WoW will not think about gearing and completing ToT LFR in record time as their main focus. They're happy exploring stuff that jaded veterans don't even think about, and they do not know of all possible shortcuts you can take at level 90.

    2) More importantly new players most often are actively seeking out guilds, and even recruited to guilds from level 1 onwards. It depends on your luck with realm and guild, but I'd like to believe most of those do not teach players to be antisocial assholes like the "hero" of the video.



    I think this video sheds some light on the flawed premises and does a better job explaining the real goal of the "experiment".

    "I don’t know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."
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