Siege of Orgrimmar Raid Schedule

[Count Zero]

You know what also sucks?

10 people sign up. One has a work related emergency. Two of them decide not to even bother showing up, and give no explaination.

On Wednesday, when we're planning multiple heroic kills/attempts.

So 7 people don't get to raid because a few people don't have the manners to even show up, and pugging is completely out of the question. Swell!

THAT is why guilds have active benches.

This (too many people on vs too few people on) is absolutely killing me, as the GM of a semi-casual/semi-hardcore guild. We can't run the risk of having too few people on and not being able to raid, so we need to have a bench, but when everyone's on it means people are sitting out. People get tired of sitting out (even though we rotate the bench as best we can, and if at all possible on a boss-by-boss [based on loot needs] basis).

It's frustrating ... people want their spot guaranteed 100% if they're on, but also want to be able to miss for whatever reason (however valid) without losing their spot. You can't have it both ways.

Flex is going to help a lot with getting increased raid time for folks who might be more likely to get benched (although we try to rotate as best we can, we also need to serve the needs of the guild ... we can't sit more healers/tanks for than we need to raid, we can't bring all melee dps, and if your performance is holding us back you're likely not getting in on progression until you can pull your weight on farm fights, etc, etc) ... hopefully it'll help with recruitment and retention, but it's obviously not going to solve all the problems ... won't touch the problem of what to do when we're running normals/heroics (although, ideally, the idea is that with more raid time and another way to gear up, it'll help solidify the roster rather than a "established raiders get more gear/practice so the recruits never get a chance to improve" situation).

I dunno ... it's caused a ton of burnout for me and I've never taken a real break from the game since becoming an officer, because there's never been a good time for me to do so. But now I've taken on a lot more irl responsibility and I just don't know how much more of this I can do. Our officer team is pretty thin as it is, and we're all busy with real life responsibilities ... so I don't know what's going to happen to us.

[Deleted]

Just unsub for a month and then get all the content at once

[Robert3620]

GG on the gating of flex, treating flex like it's lfr is why it's going to be treated and viewed as a joke. You cann't build a guild around something that's been treated as such.

[Rekuhre]

I think this is great

[Binko]

If you invite 10, then you run the risk of not raiding, if you invite 11, then you often have to sit a person. Flex removes that because you can always just bring your ´bench´ people. I know some people don´t agree with me, but sitting people is an uncomfortable situation, and Flex removes that.

I'm honestly curious about how you feel this will work for a guild like yours.

Since Guild Raids are scheduled will you now schedule both a Flex run and a Normal run? If you schedule both you have twice the organizational problems you have now and you risk player burn-out.

Or will you play it by ear depending on how many show up? What if your core team that is making progress on Normal mode is all there and wants to run Normal but a bunch of the bench show up too and want flex? The bench people will not be happy sitting once flex is available because they will feel it should be used in order to include them.

Flex sounds great in theory. But when you really start thinking about how it will work for many guilds it's likely to create more chaos.

[Durandro]

This (too many people on vs too few people on) is absolutely killing me, as the GM of a semi-casual/semi-hardcore guild. We can't run the risk of having too few people on and not being able to raid, so we need to have a bench, but when everyone's on it means people are sitting out. People get tired of sitting out (even though we rotate the bench as best we can, and if at all possible on a boss-by-boss [based on loot needs] basis).

Usually my guild is quite lucky with signs. Problem is, when something goes wrong...

We have two geared main tanks, one gearing tank who DPS's usually, and one offspec tank who dislikes it. One tank doesn't show - fair enough, we have backup. Problem being he can only raid maybe twice out of four raiding days. But we have an emergency backup! Problem being he doesn't like it, and he's the best DPS.

We have three geared main healers, one gearing healer, and one offspec healer. Problem being one healer is away sick, and the gearing healer again only raids once or twice a week (and usually not even on Wednesday when we get the most gear drops!). Off healer is decent, but having two Resto Shaman isn't ideal.

We have eight DPS'ers, two Warlocks, one Mage, two Ret Paladins, one Hunter, one Elemental Shaman and one Balance Druid. Problem is... you guessed it, four of those only raid a few times a week. If we're missing a healer or tank, we're short on DPS.

Its infuriating! 15 raiders, and usually we only scrape a 10 man group together by the skins of our teeth (and when we get 11 people the Mage nearly always sits out). Maybe its end of Tier madness?

Regardless, increasing the roster will likely just cause more issues and timeline clashes. And we can't just boot the players who don't commit to all raid days due to potentially not being able to raid some nights >_<

/sigh

Glad I'm not an Officer during times like this.

[The Glitch]

@Topic: Good that they delay LFR and Flex. Makes it less interesting/rewarding to farm while progressing normal/HC.

So because you have no self control to stop yourself from running LFR or Flex to progress in your normals/heroics, those of us that only have LFR as our end game raiding should be artificially cockblocked?

lol... I seriously wonder sometimes, I mean I don't honestly care about the gating, I don't care that we get lesser gear, but ya know, Normal and Heroic raiders get a hell of a lot more than any LFR'er does, you get access to everything first, you get all those achievements and meta mounts and boss drop mounts and even some pets specific to normal/heroic. Aswell as your titles and powerful gear and thunderforged etc.

Yet you complain because you *have* to run LFR to keep up ... be happy you get to achieve all that content, and have some control.

LFR we get to wait x weeks to see the full raid and the least powerful gear out of all raiding. And yet ya know, I've always been fine with that, but the more I see of this attitude, the more I see the selfishness of some people that play this game. And lack of self control.

And yet all the LFR hate threads make us that run LFR out to be the worst players ever and whats wrong with the game. I sadly see the opposite from reading these forums.

[Durandro]

Flex sounds great in theory. But when you really start thinking about how it will work for many guilds it's likely to create more chaos.

Yeah, its great for more casual oriented guilds that tend to PUG. Its certainly no replacement for 'hardcore' Raiders. Thankfully its not the purpose for it.

Really hoping it works out great enough to be used for Normal mode in the future at least. Now that would solve a lot of issues!

[Shudder]

So because you have no self control to stop yourself from running LFR or Flex to progress in your normals/heroics, those of us that only have LFR as our end game raiding should be artificially cockblocked?

lol... I seriously wonder sometimes, I mean I don't honestly care about the gating, I don't care that we get lesser gear, but ya know, Normal and Heroic raiders get a hell of a lot more than any LFR'er does, you get access to everything first, you get all those achievements and meta mounts and boss drop mounts and even some pets specific to normal/heroic. Aswell as your titles and powerful gear and thunderforged etc.

Yet you complain because you *have* to run LFR to keep up ... be happy you get to achieve all that content, and have some control.

LFR we get to wait x weeks to see the full raid and the least powerful gear out of all raiding. And yet ya know, I've always been fine with that, but the more I see of this attitude, the more I see the selfishness of some people that play this game. And lack of self control.

And yet all the LFR hate threads make us that run LFR out to be the worst players ever and whats wrong with the game. I sadly see the opposite from reading these forums.

You're lucky you even get to see the raid. You should be thankful for what you have. We could go back to no LFR and you can have fun running 5mans over and over. Nothing is stopping you from joining a casual normal guild. You put less effort into things you get less rewards. This is how it works in the real world, the faster you learn this the better.

[The Glitch]

You're lucky you even get to see the raid. You should be thankful for what you have. We could go back to no LFR and you can have fun running 5mans over and over. Nothing is stopping you from joining a casual normal guild. You put less effort into things you get less rewards. This is how it works in the real world, the faster you learn this the better.

Little knowledge of me before you start spouting that rubbish.

TBC i raided and I raided hard.

WOTLK i slowed down, due to real life changes, so was 10 man part time raiding.

CATA- I stopped full stop . because I could not commit to a raid schedule. My work hours are erratic and therefore my gametime became less, and less important due to having limited time, and wanting to spend that with my partner. -but i accepted this, i did not and do not feel I was/am entitled to the best stuff the game has to offer for my lesser time input.

MoP- I tried LFR and it was great, I got to see content that previously in Cata and the end of WOTLK I couldn't due to work. I could still see the content but work it around my work and family schedule, instead of working my family/life around a raid schedule.

I am fine with the rewards LFR gives me, I am NOT asking to be given anything more than we have, however people on these forums that do not understand this, and seem to feel LFR is a problem for them, when really its a problem with them not having the self control to say *no i dont want to do LFR so I'm not gonna* instead they bitch and moan and ask for it to be removed or have gear removed or all the other ridiculous things they come out with, just so they don't have to stop themselves from running it.

Believe me I am well aware of putting in effort = more reward. Which is why my job/family takes importance over commiting myself to my guild raid schedule.

I put effort into my work and am in a good position in my life now,and i reap the rewards, I want to come home and relax and play my game and have fun, not treat it like a second job.

[Papier Light]

man i want you to read some of these comments and ask yourself why this game is dying..





LOLOLOLOL WTF

Uh yeah so? I wont be killing Garrosh before LFR either

[Deleted]

Bashiok explains very much the reasoning by Blizzard:

There are a lot of situations at play so I'll just try to bullet some of them quickly (sorry I gotta run soon):

Heroic/Normal raiders enjoy what they're doing. If LFR was available at the same time they would be required to also run LFR as, at least for Normal raiders, would likely hold some potential upgrades. Regardless of how small or specific (trinkets?), progression raiding for many requires squeezing every ounce out of every aspect of the game. If another guild does this thing, you have to do it too or you are suboptimal. That's not a factor of wanting to do it or not, it's a requirement to compete. That's probably also the most difficult mentality to get across as it's a fundamentally different way to approach a game for different people, and it really only requires the ability to accept that how you like to play the game doesn't and shouldn't apply to everyone else. Hardcore progression raiders don't think having all of Normal progression and LFR on week one sounds fun, and neither do we.



It's pretty lame if the biggest and baddest enemy of the entire expansion is killed first, day one, in the easiest difficulty. And it would be if it were at the same time. It's not only lame for the people attempting to kill him in the harder difficulties, but it's pretty lame for the people aspiring or looking up to those killing him in a harder difficulty and wanting to be a part of that progression. You may not necessarily care, and just want to kill Garrosh and be done, but a lot of people are playing the game because they want a challenge in defeating the most horrendous creature and enemies in the game. For a lot of players the point of playing a game is meeting and surmounting a challenge. It undermines that challenge when you can just go and do it in a difficulty, that by necessity of its random matchmaking, can be beaten very easily. Especially for groups of coordinated progression raiders.



Not everyone in a Normal raid will kill Garrosh before he's available to kill in LFR, this is true, but that doesn't mean we should just say screw it and open it all up for every difficulty day one. Those really vying for realm firsts very likely will kill him before he's available to LFR, and that's the main intent, a good faith effort to give progression guilds a chance at downing the content in their difficulties.



There are some players that just want to see the content and don't care too much about gearing up. They would race through LFR day one, down Garrosh, and ask "what now?", and likely come to the forums to complain we didn't give them enough content. We could get into some long debate about the nature of production, as well as basic laws of physics, but let's suspend all disbelief for this argument that we do our best to provide awesome and compelling content as quickly as we can for millions of players all with varying tastes, personal expectations, lives, goals, dreams, etc.



Raid content is really intended to be progressed through by building a competent team of people, in appropriate leveled gear, that work together to solve difficult challenges through expert knowledge - and execution of - within the game. Some people don't have time for that, they can't commit to a raid schedule (although both those groups should be looking toward Flex as it is very much for them!), just want to see the content, aren't very good at the game, or just aren't playing to be in a social situation, and want to run LFR, and we think that's great, and it's great LFR is right up their alley and let's them see the content, it is there for those reasons, but that doesn't mean that it should be available and allow access to content many weeks faster than is intended through progression raiding.



In other words: if you are only doing LFR you are still going to see the content much faster !-even with a gated wing schedule-! than if you were in a Normal progression group.

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So because you have no self control to stop yourself from running LFR or Flex to progress in your normals/heroics, those of us that only have LFR as our end game raiding should be artificially cockblocked?

lol... I seriously wonder sometimes, I mean I don't honestly care about the gating, I don't care that we get lesser gear, but ya know, Normal and Heroic raiders get a hell of a lot more than any LFR'er does, you get access to everything first, you get all those achievements and meta mounts and boss drop mounts and even some pets specific to normal/heroic. Aswell as your titles and powerful gear and thunderforged etc.

Yet you complain because you *have* to run LFR to keep up ... be happy you get to achieve all that content, and have some control.

LFR we get to wait x weeks to see the full raid and the least powerful gear out of all raiding. And yet ya know, I've always been fine with that, but the more I see of this attitude, the more I see the selfishness of some people that play this game. And lack of self control.

And yet all the LFR hate threads make us that run LFR out to be the worst players ever and whats wrong with the game. I sadly see the opposite from reading these forums.

I seriously wonders sometimes y know, LFR raiders get a hell of a lot for putting in NO EFFORT at all. They get the same gear as real raiders and they get to see the same bosses. All this, by doing nothing, just afk'ing around for 1 hour.

Yeah, I totally agree with you how it's unfair and all for LFR heros ...

[Durandro]

I seriously wonders sometimes y know, LFR raiders get a hell of a lot for putting in NO EFFORT at all. They get the same gear as real raiders and they get to see the same bosses. All this, by doing nothing, just afk'ing around for 1 hour.

1/ Even in LFR effort has to be made.

2/ The gear is not the same.

3/ The bosses are not the same (mechanics wise, most can be completely ignored).

4/ AFK'ing gets you kicked unless you're REALLY lucky.

[The Glitch]

I seriously wonders sometimes y know, LFR raiders get a hell of a lot for putting in NO EFFORT at all. They get the same gear as real raiders and they get to see the same bosses. All this, by doing nothing, just afk'ing around for 1 hour.

Yeah, I totally agree with you how it's unfair and all for LFR heros ...

Are you kidding? LFR'ers get a watered down version of the raid, it still takes effort, we also get the lowest gear out of all raiding. We don't get to have that team work feeling of working with our guildies, But it's better than not seeing any raid content fullstop for those of us that cannot or will not schedule our lives around a raid schedule. So we accept what we get for the content we do.

Normal and Heroic raiders are rewarded substantially more than LFR'ers I don't see what the issue is, is LFR'ers get to see watered down bosses and lesser gear.

You want all the content just for you?

LFR gear is NOT the same gear as *real* raiders other than model wise even the colours are different.

Effort is needed for LFR - especially when you have all those AFK'ing -too good for LFR- normal raiders hindering you (though personally I enjoy it cause It gives me a bit more challenge) And at the start of a new raid tier LFR is always more challenging due to it being new and people getting to know tactics etc.

You might AFK, I certainly do not AFK my way through LFR, because thats completely disrespectful to the other 24 people in there.

The term LFR heroes needs to die, because it makes you look like an ass.

[Tharkkun]

You're lucky you even get to see the raid. You should be thankful for what you have. We could go back to no LFR and you can have fun running 5mans over and over. Nothing is stopping you from joining a casual normal guild. You put less effort into things you get less rewards. This is how it works in the real world, the faster you learn this the better.

How do you know glitch doesn't top the meters in whatever class is played in LFR? Just because someone has less time to spend doesn't entitle them to see less content. I bet many casuals are easily better players but lack the time and gear.

In WoW you learn by repetition like a freaking dog. Toss ball, fetch, treat. Repeat. That's heroic raiding.

In the real world I work in IT. I learn on the fly when shit hits the fan. I don't have the luxury of 300 tries at recovering a computer because the platter on my customers hdd is screwed. Nor can I hit retry for 2 weeks straight because the customer needs their data now. You make decisions on the fly that have real consequences. Video games are not even remotely close to the real world.

[Deleted]

Are you kidding? LFR'ers get a watered down version of the raid, it still takes effort, we also get the lowest gear out of all raiding. We don't get to have that team work feeling of working with our guildies, But it's better than not seeing any raid content fullstop for those of us that cannot or will not schedule our lives around a raid schedule. So we accept what we get for the content we do.

Normal and Heroic raiders are rewarded substantially more than LFR'ers I don't see what the issue is, is LFR'ers get to see watered down bosses and lesser gear.

You want all the content just for you?

LFR gear is NOT the same gear as *real* raiders other than model wise even the colours are different.

Effort is needed for LFR - especially when you have all those AFK'ing -too good for LFR- normal raiders hindering you (though personally I enjoy it cause It gives me a bit more challenge) And at the start of a new raid tier LFR is always more challenging due to it being new and people getting to know tactics etc.

You might AFK, I certainly do not AFK my way through LFR, because thats completely disrespectful to the other 24 people in there.

The term LFR heroes needs to die, because it makes you look like an ass.

I don't want to go over the same points over and over again just because you don't notice my point or are chosing to ignore it. So one last time:

NO EFFORT IS NEEDED in LFR

I don't care if you top the meters in LFR, because you would get the same loot even if you afk'ed. If everyone but 1 person afk'ed in LFR the boss would still fall because of the buff you get after wiping a few times.

The gear you get looks the same as for hc raiders, just different colours. Don't tell me you care more about the item level then about how it looks.

As a nhc/hc raider you have to put effort into downing bosses in progress and even on farm, that should be rewarded.

[Fayth]

Why do they keep doing this?

Because they want to give people who only do lfr something to do and prevent you getting geared fast.
Also they want to keep you subbed.

[The Glitch]

I don't want to go over the same points over and over again just because you don't notice my point or are chosing to ignore it. So one last time:

NO EFFORT IS NEEDED in LFR

I don't care if you top the meters in LFR, because you would get the same loot even if you afk'ed. If everyone but 1 person afk'ed in LFR the boss would still fall because of the buff you get after wiping a few times.

The gear you get looks the same as for hc raiders, just different colours. Don't tell me you care more about the item level then about how it looks.

As a nhc/hc raider you have to put effort into downing bosses in progress and even on farm, that should be rewarded.

Effort is required, you are blind if you think there is no effort required. Not everyone is at the same skill level as each other, so what might seem like easy to you may not be to someone else, so please do not go around spouting -NO EFFORT NEEDED- as though it was fact. It is not fact.

I do not care about topping meters, I have never been a meter whore, I play as best as I can, I make sure I am gemmed/enchanted/reforged to the best of my spec. I read up on my class and spec to keep on top of changes. I'd love to see 24 people going AFK and the boss still dropping over dead, I think you are a bit ridiculous saying something so ...well...ridiculous. Making outright ridiculous claims like that, just invalidates anything you have to say really.

Honestly I couldn't give 2 hoots if my gears the same as someone elses, transmog is an amazing thing, I hear you can custom tailor your gear to look however you want these days.

As a Heroic/Normal raider, you are rewarded, you are rewarded with the best gear power wise so you can progress, you also get to have that teamwork feeling, the feeling of killing the hardest bosses ingame, mounts/meta mounts/titles/achievements/bragging rights.

So heres the thing, I am a LFR'er and I am happy with what we get in terms of rewards, I am not asking for anything more than what we have now.

But you seem to think all the stuff you Heroic and Normal raiders get isn't enough?

[Deleted]

It IS a fact that NO EFFORT is needed. Watch the video by mikepreach.

Put it this way: I see you have a big collection of pets, and I can only imagine that some required some effort to get. How would you feel if Blizz suddenly decides that others who don't have time to farm pets should have them too and everytime I log in I get a rare pet handed by mail. Would you concratulate me for "my effort" of logging in? Would you be happy with Blizzard and feel that this is the right decision to hand out the rare pets, which some took you weeks or months to farm, like hotdogs at a baseball game?

I don't want to take any content from anyone. I just want that everyone has to put in the same effort for the same reward. That's all.

[Robert3620]

It's really beyond time the casual players stood up to the hardcore mentality and toward Blizzard, who keep catering to it. People just need to unsub and put down the reason as being your tired of being treated as a second class customer. It's clear the hard core and it's clear Blizzard view those doing lfr as second class, well it's time those that pay the bills speak up with their wallet and walk.

LFR pays the bills for the raid content, period. No lfr no raids.